V7III Charging System

[Vagrant]

the new Guzzi regulator for my V7III came in at 5 pm last night. I stuck it on (thanks for the coil removal tip). I had cleaned up the ground on the tranny but I had also done that last year so I doubt it had any effect. I now am at 14.4 volts from about 1600 RPM up.
Very happy camper but I won't get to ride it for a while as I leave this am for a week up the blue ridge on the V85.

[Kiwi_Roy]

the new Guzzi regulator for my V7III came in at 5 pm last night. I stuck it on (thanks for the coil removal tip). I had cleaned up the ground on the tranny but I had also done that last year so I doubt it had any effect. I now am at 14.4 volts from about 1600 RPM up.
Very happy camper but I won't get to ride it for a while as I leave this am for a week up the blue ridge on the V85.

Be sure to put something greasy on there to stop electrolysis, mine looked like it had a tiny amount of corrosion between the lug and casting, I sweated the wires into the lug for good measure, perhaps a few drops of oil to wick into the wires would be another way to keep the copper pristine.
I tried backing the stud out but it must have some super thread locker holding it.
I look forward to your ride report on the V85
I sent you a PM

[Kiwi_Roy]

I carried out the testing as per the Workshop manual ELE SYS 106 to 109.
The alternator stator failed the Voltage test but seemed ok with the short circuit current test however one phase was very low plugged back in 1, 6.5, 6.5 Amps at idle.
We'll see how good the warranty is, its just over 1 year of 2. Wish me luck!

[Kiwi_Roy]

Time I updated this thread,
I decided to have a look at the alternator, I didn't quite get it all apart but I had a good squiz inside.
At least 2 possibly 3 coils are burnt out. I couldn't get very good pictures because they were at an awkward angle

You can see the coils on the opposite side.
The spinning magnet, on the outside for this model

While i was in there took a picture of the oil pump hidden below the chain sprocket

And the chain tensioner.

[Zoom Zoom]

Wow, I guess you found the trouble, or the source of the trouble.

As an aside, I am working on getting a volt meter for my III. Once I get everything, I'll set up a relay to switch it on and off with the key but provide a reading directly off the battery.

John Henry

[Bert Remington]

Looking at the back of the stator where it mounts to the cover, I'm thinking one or two of the phase wires were pinched by the clamp or at the mounting face.

[Vagrant]

When i had the gas tank off fishing out wires i took every connector on the bike apart and sprayed with deoxit and then Vaselined them.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Is that how they ship them, Very interesting.
They must pull the contacts to get the cable through the hole in the cover.

[Bert Remington]

KR -- the hole in the cover should be a slotted opening.  As you can see in the picture, the wires are vulcanized to the grommet.  There are more pictures here: https://vipih.com/products/m550-a429

[Bert Remington]

Okay we've all promised to add a voltmeter to our V7 IIIs.  So what voltmeter should we add and where should it go?  These are linked decisions as the form of the meter relates to its location.  I'm partial to Koso so here are some of my candidates:

Koso BA067R00 Voltmeter


Koso BA024B50 Voltmeter/Clock


Koso BA024B50 Voltmeter/30amp Ammeter


Koso BE006S00 Mounting Bracket


And a popular alternative


Mounting locations can be the mirrors (BA067R00) or handlebars (Mini 3):


or to the right of the speedometer:


I'm kinda favoring the Koso BA024B50 Voltmeter/30amp Ammeter on the Koso BE006S00 Mounting Bracket.  As you recall from this diagram inserting it in the battery charge/discharge circuit would be easy, at least electrically.


Okay what are your thoughts and plans?

[Zoom Zoom]

I would begin by saying having a volt meter is something I have added to all my bikes if it didn't come built in. I have used the Kuryakin unit in the past. It works well, is compact, but the LED's are too bright and that bugs me. I also used the Auto Meter Cobalt gauge in the past. Worked great, ultra accurate. Same as the Pro Cycle I have ordered but not meant to be exposed. Never had a problem with it though. The Pro Cycle version is evidently sealed for being outside on a bike.

I'm still waiting on everything to arrive, but this is what I ordered:

AutoMeter Pro-Cycle Analog Gauges 19692  https://www.summitracing.com/parts/ATM-19692

AutoMeter Gauge Mounting Cups 2204  https://www.summitracing.com/parts/ATM-2204

For possible mounting:

Slip Streamer 7/8 in.Handlebar Clamps 
https://www.denniskirk.com/slip-streamer/7-8-in-handlebar-clamps-for-slipstreamer-windshields-7-8inch.p27808.prd/27808.sku
They come in pairs, so I will have a spare.

Previously when I used the Auto Meter, I used the Slip Streamer clamp and put it on the handlebar. That will actually be my second choice in this case. What I would like is to have it right between the tach and speedometer, along the line of the old Guzzi dash on a Cal II and others, but I don't know if I can devise a bracket to make that work or not. Once I get everything, I can size it up and go from there. The Auto Meter is a 2 1/16 inch gauge so it is larger than other options. Having said that, they are easy to read day or night with LED backlighting. When I did them in the past, I simply tied the light power and the gauge power wires together, fed through a relay so it will be switched with the ignition, and of course will be fused.

John Henry

[Kiwi_Roy]

KR -- the hole in the cover should be a slotted opening.  As you can see in the picture, the wires are vulcanized to the grommet.  There are more pictures here: https://vipih.com/products/m550-a429

Ah now I see, its kind of hard to see on the bike, that makes perfect sense.
I wish i'd seen that add a week ago I would have just ordered it.
Where do you think they are made, please don't say China.

[Kiwi_Roy]

As to the Voltmeter I had pretty much decided to connect it to the city light (43) or GPS plug (11) They are both from the same circuit Lighting fuse (B) That should be lightly loaded until the motor starts but give you Voltage while the starter is turning.
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2013_V7_Series.gif
I'm not so concerned with the actual exact battery Voltage, its all relative.
As to the Ammeter, I hook my Fluke in place of the 30 Amp fuse that's all the current in and out of the battery if you don't count starting, all you really need to know while riding.

As to the Voltmeter, I'm really cheap, I bought 6 red ones and 6 green ones. I figure I can tweak them for accuracy if need be and give some away as well.
https://www.ebay.ca/itm/223807697366  No bar graphs, I hate that in a meter, they are on a slow boat thought, by the time they arrive I will wonder what I ordered those for lol

[Zoom Zoom]

A couple things. First, #11 as you noted on the diagram you linked to is a feed wire for the Lambda probe. I don't see any GPS plug anyplace. If there is one on a V7III, I would be interested to know where it is.

Next, and more importantly, the reason I started connecting the volt meter to the battery using a relay was to eliminated the voltage drop that I had experienced when I tied into the pilot light. On the used EV that I had bought, the PO had slathered dielectric grease all over every connector and I discovered the battery was overcharging constantly as a result. Had I been reading the voltage at the pilot, I would not have seen that. Of course you can connect it there and look at its reading while taking a reading at the battery with a VOM. In that case, I had quite a discrepancy between the front of the bike and the battery.  (After cleaning all that grease off the connectors, I was able to get a 1.5 drop at the battery. It had been constantly overcharging. I was able to get it down to a more normal reading.)

If you really want accuracy, you should connect the volt meter to the battery and use a switched circuit to power a relay. Roy, you have been pretty particular up to now. are you really going to cut this corner?

John Henry

[Kiwi_Roy]

A couple things. First, #11 as you noted on the diagram you linked to is a feed wire for the Lambda probe. I don't see any GPS plug anyplace. If there is one on a V7III, I would be interested to know where it is.

Next, and more importantly, the reason I started connecting the volt meter to the battery using a relay was to eliminated the voltage drop that I had experienced when I tied into the pilot light. On the used EV that I had bought, the PO had slathered dielectric grease all over every connector and I discovered the battery was overcharging constantly as a result. Had I been reading the voltage at the pilot, I would not have seen that. Of course you can connect it there and look at its reading while taking a reading at the battery with a VOM. In that case, I had quite a discrepancy between the front of the bike and the battery.  (After cleaning all that grease off the connectors, I was able to get a 1.5 drop at the battery. It had been constantly overcharging. I was able to get it down to a more normal reading.)

If you really want accuracy, you should connect the volt meter to the battery and use a switched circuit to power a relay. Roy, you have been pretty particular up to now. are you really going to cut this corner?

John Henry

No you must be looking at a different drawing, No 11 on the one I posted is definitely the GPS plug, I know I haven't found it either, perhaps another owner is using it.
When you first turn the key On the headlight is Off so there should be very little Voltage drop.
The EV is a different animal it relies on a really flakey connection through the headlight relay for the critical task of sensing the battery Voltage, my VII Sport was much worse it also went through the normally closed Start relay contact as well I finally gave up on that whole mess and fitted an after market permanently connected regulator similar to the one V7 has.
I have never used Dielectric Grease, why would I Vaseline does everything I need, I take note of horror stories like yours.
I hear you on using a relay but then you need a fuse and wiring along under the tank etc etc I bought the subject up to start a discussion.
Don't get me wrong the meter I put on my bike will need to compere favourably to my Fluke 87, I poke that in the battery tender socket but i'm not about to walk away and leave my $400 meter for some low life to walk off with.
Cheers.

[Zoom Zoom]

The reference I made to the #11 is from the link you provided on your thread.

As for the EV, I was giving a for instance. I don't use dielectric grease either and discourage its use. Vaseline or a product called terminal grease is what I prefer.

Now you have my attention though. If you're suggesting there would minimum loss by using the  pilot light compared to either the EV I made reference to or the '03 LeMans I had, I have to agree that is a much easier solution that the relay. Regardless of where I connect things, I use a fuse where appropriate. The gauge I have ordered has a fuse in its wiring so that will be instated regardless of where I tap in.

I wouldn't carry my good meter around either. Since I have already made a connection to the pilot for my GPS, I guess I could easily reference that connection against the battery. As long as there is no great disparity, then there you go.

You may have just made my life easier.

John Henry

[Kiwi_Roy]

In my picture reply No 33 look how all these coil leads are tangled around each other, you would think that wouldn't be good, its certainly not how it would have been done years ago.
I don't know what diagram you are referring to so I will reference it again. http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2013_V7_Series.gif this one.
For something like this I often just pinch a piece of sheetmetal between the handlebar clamps, your meter is too big of course.
I had an old California II once, the Voltmeter would often tell you about the state of electrical health by how good a reading it got from the battery
You are several weeks ahead of me, by the time I get to put my meter on you will have it all worked out LOL
I still have to lay my hands on a new winding, mine should be replaced under warranty since the bike is only a year old.
Roy

[Zoom Zoom]

Okay, I think this is the V7III diagram:

http://www.thisoldtractor.com/mg_manuals/wiring_diagram_v7-iii-e4-stone.pdf

The pilot light is identified as #43 in the diagram. Several other power wires tap into this wire as it makes its way to the battery.

11  LAMBDA PROBE 1 (LH) (+) is the identifier for this diagram as well. In reality, it is neither her nor there. We know where to locate the daytime running light. (pilot light)

I'll still whip my meter on it, and if it compares favorably, I'll use that and save some work. Since I have very little miles thus far on the bike, I wouldn't expect a huge disparity.

John Henry

[Zoom Zoom]

<snip> your meter is too big of course.<snip>
Roy

  True

OTOH, it will be easy to see, matches the factory clocks in appearance, won't be annoying to look at (IMHO), and is very accurate based on my personal experience.

Once I get it figured out on the bike, I'll post a pic.

John Henry

[jpv7]

KR -- the hole in the cover should be a slotted opening.  As you can see in the picture, the wires are vulcanized to the grommet.  There are more pictures here: https://vipih.com/products/m550-a429

I hate how they do that with the grommet.  I had an oil leak from there on my V7ii, and had to remove the cover and seal around it with some black gasket sealer.

[Bert Remington]

As I advised KR via PM, the engine manual says "apply a great amount of threebond on the cable grommet"; "Check that plentiful threebond leaks out and covers all space between the seat of the cover and the cable grommet"; and "Apply another layer of threebond over the cable grommet."  Threebond is "A synthetic rubber, visco-elastic sealer that is semi-drying." You also need a new cover gasket -- no dressing mentioned although I'm partial to Hylomar.

ZZ -- I went down the Autometer path because I too like those full-scale digital stepper gauges.  But I will have a Garmin zumo 660 navigator and Garmin VIRB Elite action camera mounted up front so things were getting crowded and I looked for something smaller.  Finding the  Koso voltmeter/ammeter combination has almost sealed the deal for me.  So Yes send pictures.  I think it's going look great.

[Vagrant]

Well, I finally drove my III today. Pisssed as I can get. 14.4 volts connected right to the battery when I left. 2 miles later it'd at 12.6. I stop for gas, restart and 12.6, then it goes to 13.5 then back to 12.6 and downhill from there. so obviously it's not the regulator on mine either. The Marieta Ga. dealer is putting it on pads tomorrow for me.
Somewhere somebody mentioned a software update that fixes the charging system??? any info? the dealer hasn't heard of it. Kiwi where are you at with yours?

[Bert Remington]

There's very few data points but I'm seeing a pattern: old battery weakens; get a few hard-to-starts; external charge battery; more hard starts; a long highway ride; one or more alternator phases are lost.

I don't know if this is a regulator problem (KR's photo showed no external signs of overheating).

So Vagrant I think your next step is to remove the alternator cover and examine the stator as KR did.

I was going to wait for the 900 mile service before installing the Koso voltmeter/ammeter yet but will purchase it tonight.  You guys have convinced me.  Now I need my V7 III Rosso Grosso.

PS ain't no software in the charging circuit.

[Zoom Zoom]

Got all the pieces for the install. I have figured out a way to mount it top center between the factory clocks. It's simple, but I believe I will have the desired finished look and function. Waiting on some Permatex to cure at the moment. Might be done tomorrow but not sure.

Once I know it works out, I'll post pics with a description of what I have done.

John Henry

[Kiwi_Roy]

I went to the dealer early this week and showed them the pictures, I believe he has ordered the new stator, two weeks delivery from somewhere in the states.
In the meantime I'm running on battery tender each night assisted by some charging.

Well, I finally drove my III today. Pisssed as I can get. 14.4 volts connected right to the battery when I left. 2 miles later it'd at 12.6. I stop for gas, restart and 12.6, then it goes to 13.5 then back to 12.6 and downhill from there. so obviously it's not the regulator on mine either. The Marieta Ga. dealer is putting it on pads tomorrow for me.
Somewhere somebody mentioned a software update that fixes the charging system??? any info? the dealer hasn't heard of it. Kiwi where are you at with yours?

The Winding fault on mine showed up as a Voltage imbalance with the coils open circuit, you can re-route the 3 pin cable out the front where its easy to reach and you can measure it.
At Idle I get 30, 14.2 and 17.4 Volts at idle
At 2000 revs the Voltage is supposed to be 40 - 45  Volts, I get 37, 23 and 22 Volts
I would say if all 3 phases are balanced chances are the windings are fine.

[Vagrant]

Funny, it's coming from Lawrenceville, Ga about 30 miles from me.
I just loaded mine in the truck. Bastard was charging fine just to spite me.

[Bert Remington]

Vagrant -- you're going by voltage not energy.  If the battery is fully charged a single phase can provide sufficient voltage but can't keep up with the from a multi-mile ride.  That's why I'm getting the ammeter.

[Zoom Zoom]

Re: the diagrams. Okay, I stand (slightly) corrected. I was looking at the control unit pinout. The wrong #11.

I see where the #11 you noted is the pre-installation GPS.

But, and this is a big but, the diagram you reference is a 2013 V7. Is that not a series II?

If you look at the link I provided for a V7III euro4 Stone, (other than the control unit pinout), #11 identifies as the fall sensor in the main key. I have looked for a GPS plug on a series 3 to no avail.

Have you actually had the tank off and visually confirmed that there is a plug someplace?  If so, I'm really interested in taking advantage of it since I hope to deal with this tomorrow.

Again, I reference the diagram for a V7III E4:
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/mg_manuals/wiring_diagram_v7-iii-e4-stone.pdf

I have looked, but perhaps I missed it. I apologize for seeming stubborn about this, but just so folks aren't chasing their tail you know.

John Henry

[Bert Remington]

For the V7 III Stone there is no "GPS Plug".  Depending on your requirements your best options are #51 BlueDash Pre-Installation, #52 USB Socket, or #53 Anti-Theft Pre-Installation.  I'm installing the #52 MG USB socket.  The #51 BlueDash is limited functionality although adequate for GPS power and a SpeedHut CANbus tachometer.  I'm looking at building my own anti-theft via #53 since multiple functions are easily accessed.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Bert has a much better manual than I have, I tend to use Carls drawings because they are so dammed handy but I did purchase the Piaggio drawing, it has mistakes also.
I have had the tank off many times and haven't seen the connector but then if it jumped out and bit me I would probably miss it.
My Brothers V9 came with a USB charger on the headstock I believe.