V7III Charging System

[Edoardo]

I have a V7 III Milano - 2018 build

There is a MG Blue Dash connector AND a switched 12 Volt supply on the bike. In the case of my bike, they were to be found behind the battery. Remove the right side cover and you should be able to see them.

I think that the 12 volt supply is referred to as the USB connection on the wiring diagram. The wire colours match the diagram colours.

The connector on the Blue Dash plug has 5 or 6 pins, the 12 volt has only 2. It's an AMP Super Seal connector.

I hope this will be helpful for clarification.

[Bert Remington]

Connector #51 BlueDash -- 8 terminals, 5 populated. McTes at the "Add tachometer to new V7 III Carbon Dark" thread provided an excellent analysis as well as a successful install.  Be careful visiting this thread -- there is a Trojan on the first page.

Connector #52 USB -- 2 terminals, 2 populated.  MG p/n 2S000983 on order from Cadre.

Connector #53 Anti-Theft -- 9 terminals, 7 populated.  (Actually #53 is on the add-on anti-theft module side of the harness and has 12 terminals; the connector I am referring to is on the motorcycle side.). Cadre suggested the MG functionality wasn't what I needed so am building my own via this interface (my concern is more car-jacking than midnight theft).

When I dig into Rosso Grosso (maybe this month?) I'll post pictures of the connectors.

[guzzisteve]

ZZ, that's the diagram I been using for the III. Seen as the junk stock reg on Steve's III crapped twice I think one from EME w/one less pin will work. You just swap plugs and run a ground jumper to a split ground to make 7 and plug it in. This makes it just like the print. Only thing is you got 2 grounds to one wire going to reg. Don't know if it'll overheat or not. I'm no electric engineer but better than #3 taking a dump.

[Zoom Zoom]

Edoardo and Bert,

Thank you both for the info regarding the location and particular connector. It was where you noted and I used those wires. I soldered an SAE plug onto the wires for the gauge so if I were to get the USB plug that is still a viable option. Beyond that...

Before:




And After:








John Henry

[Bert Remington]

Dang I didn't know MG had a voltmeter accessory!

Well even if they did it wouldn't look as good as ZZ's.  That Autometer stepper makes a natural trio with the speedometer and tachometer.  I expect there will be several folks asking for parts list and maybe even building one for them.

Just don't hypnotized following the Blue glow down the road.

[Vagrant]

So, first credit where do. Marietta Vespa Guzzi got me in within 24 hours of calling him.
 They put it on Pads and of course it was charging. Both 02 sensors showed up as bad. Thats why the check engine light was on forever. Charging and battery checked good and no new updates. He feels the issue with intermittent charging is my radar detector and gps wire job. Same thing I've done for 20 years. So I will remove them and try for a while. I think  the old and new regulator are both good.  New ideas welcome!     FYI no charge

[Zoom Zoom]

Can you describe the wiring job they think is bad? Seems a bit far fetched to me.

ZZ

[Vagrant]

It is Gerbing jacket wire. Battery tender wire. 5 prong relay taped into a switched wire to run gps and radar. Said maybe system cannot Handel it all but it did for 14000 miles

[Kiwi_Roy]

I heard today that Piaggio approved the new parts for my bike so thats good, in the meantime I am keeping running with a nightly charge.

ZZ, I like your installation 

[Bert Remington]

I believe the EME https://www.euromotoelectrics.com/product-p/mg-voltrect.htm

is the same as the GTM https://gtmotocycles.com/collections/electronics/products/esrvrnew

and is the same as the ESR https://www.electrosport.com/collections/regulator-rectifiers/products/esr531-regulator-rectifier-honda-super-duty

all three of which are SCR Three-Phase Shorting Regulator/Rectifier https://www.shindengen.com/products/electro/motorcycle/reg/

As we can see from KR's pictures and guzzisteve's post, they are not plug-compatible with the V7 III alternator 3-pin and maybe the regulator 4-pin connectors.

This looks like the best replacement stator https://vipih.com/products/m550-a429

This looks like the best replacement MOSFET Three-Phase Shorting Regulator/Rectifier http://www.roadstercycle.com/

ESR says don't use an LFP battery with MOSFET regulators and EME says don't use LFP batteries with their (SCR) regulators.  I suggest you get the biggest non-Odyssey/Optima SLA/AGM battery (NOT FLA/AGM) that will fit.  And replace them every three years.  Cheaper and easier than a flatbed tow home.

[Vagrant]

I just emailed them It calls for the same stator for all years yet the 2017 is an oil-cooled unit. they also don't say the output. I assume it's a Chinese part by the price.

[guzzisteve]

Oil bath alt is PN #2D000024 & reg #2D000043
Air cooled is PN #883877 & reg #883878

Thanks Bert for the Roadster site info, everything you need I see.

[Bert Remington]

You also need p/n 887003 Cover Gasket.  Please note of the 12 screws, 10 are M6x25 and 2 are M6x20.

GS -- my printed parts manual Chassis Prefix ZGULDU00 08/03/2017 page 68/70 shows Position 7 Voltage Regulator as p/n 1D001549.

[Kiwi_Roy]

My Voltmeters arrived yesterday, horrible things not even waterproof but what can you expect for $3 each eh!
I connected one up to the city light, it works really well there, gives a range of Voltage readings from 12.5 - 14 Volts depending on what's going on.
Not possible to view the green LED in bright sunlight but that's only a minor inconvenience.
Heres's the best part, I went for a fairly long ride, the low fuel light has been on for half an hour so headed for my fuel stop.
In the shade of the gas station the LEDs saying 10.5 Volts, for sure if I shut her down it's never going to start again. my $3 meter just saved me from an awkward situation.
Change of plans, scurry home and throw it on the trickle charger, gas up later.

[Zoom Zoom]

It is Gerbing jacket wire. Battery tender wire. 5 prong relay taped into a switched wire to run gps and radar. Said maybe system cannot Handel it all but it did for 14000 miles

I didn't really have a reply before now, but now that I have had some miles to observe my volt meter, I have a thought. First, you may have the same thing going on as Roy with regard to a winding or two being burned out. Last year, a friend of mine with a '96 Cali was having charging trouble. Turns out the voltage regulator was charging, a little. After he had trouble when we arrived in Pittsburgh to meet up for a trip to the Virginia Rally, we left the house with a fully charged battery. He made it all the way to Virginia and back home before the battery was depleted enough to get the click click sound out of the starter. In his case, a new regulator solved his trouble.

If the GPS and Radar Detector were really causing the battery to discharge, I believe it would have happened before 14K was on the clock! Something has changed.

I soldered in an SAE plug off the USB wire and that seems to provide a reliable reading for the volt meter. The lead was long enough to work with and dress up after. I did not cut the wire. Instead, I stripped back an inch or so, kind of shoved the strands of the new plug into the wire, soldered and reinsulated everything.

So assuming all is well at this point for me, what have I observed?

When I turn on the key, I see 12.5 VDC prior to starting. Once started, when cold, the voltage goes up to 14 pretty quickly. Once moving, I see 14.2 consistently. Once warmed up, I see the voltage fall to the 12.5 at idle while sitting at an intersection. Depending on the length of time sitting there, once under way, the voltage comes back up to the 14.2 probably within 100 yards. (Quicker on short stops.) In any case, once above 2 grand, the voltage holds steady at the 14.2 volts. After that, as long as it's above idle, it maintains that voltage. Although I don't have a radar detector, I am running a gps.

It's good to have a baseline so you can know what's normal. That, of course, is where a meter comes in. I **think** it's entirely possible that your charging system is diminished a little. My riding is primarily country roads with very little city riding. Probably not unlike yours, but the point is that extended periods of stop and go traffic would likely eventually draw the battery down.

If you don't have a meter yet, you ought to get one.

John Henry

[Vagrant]

this is like the tale of two humans. He did it as nicely as possible and I as cheap as possible.
actually yesterday I removed all the wiring I had done before the accessory plug was discovered. Now the radar detector is run on it and yes the battery still has the oxford heated grip wire and an old-style flat battery tender wire and the new Gerbing wire. No way in hell is anybody going to convince me this doesn't work and is causing the problem seeing as it has been on 20-30 different bikes over the years. the el-cheapo gauge is direct to the battery via an old Gerbing extension cord with a rocker on/off switch. It's just temporary to see what's going on then I will find something better.
By the time I washed the 2000 miles of trail dust off the V85 and did the work to the V7III it was 95 in the shade so it didn't get ridden yet but it was still charging when I fired it up.

[Kiwi_Roy]

I find mine wired across the City Light aka Park Light is just about right, its easy to sneak the two wires in beside the headlight connector and it comes on before the headlight turns on.
Starts out about 12.5 drops down into the 11s with cranking then runs around 13 normally at the end of the day though with my sick alternator it was down to 10.5,

[Kev m]

So considering my original battery on the IIID died a few months back and in light of all this talk I thought I'd check the running voltage.

I have a little digital voltage check gauge that attaches directly to the SAE Battery Tender harness plug. So I used an extension and ran it up to the handlebar bag where I placed the gauge in the cell phone display panel.

I was a little surprised by the results but it sounds normal:

* Key on/engine off - 12.9 V
* Cranking - drops to around 11.0 V
* Idle: ~12.6 - 13.0 V
* Partial throttle/pulling away ~ 13.2 - 13.7 V
* At speed 14.4 V

What surprised me was just how much the voltage dropped at idle and the length of time (maybe 5-10 seconds) it took to build back up as I pulled away.

[Zoom Zoom]

As you probably recall Kev, it's not uncommon for the light to glow at idle in the bikes you and I used to have.

Either way, I find comfort in knowing what is going on.

ZZ

[Kev m]

As you probably recall Kev, it's not uncommon for the light to glow at idle in the bikes you and I used to have.

Either way, I find comfort in knowing what is going on.

ZZ

Yeah you're right and I probably shouldn't have been surprised thinking back to the similar setup on the Jackal.

[Vagrant]

I did the test drive today. left at 89 degrees and came back at 92. this just isn't right.
when I pulled out the gauge was at 14.4 and basically stayed that way for 40 miles, then it dropped to 12.5 for about 7 miles. I stopped at TWO for water and when I left it was still about 12.5. around ten miles later it went to 13.8 for about ten miles then dropped back to 12.5 and eventually 12.3 when I pulled into the garage at 90 total miles or so. So as I suspected removing the BS wires as the dealer wanted did nothing. It is as intermittent as it gets. (the story of my life)
FYI the digital gauge is useless in the sun. get a real one you can see in all conditions.
I am out of options other than the stator and or trading! Any other ideas?

[guzzisteve]

Now it would be testing the 3 phases then pull cover to look.

[Vagrant]

KIwi can you get away with using the old gasket and grommet?

[elrealistico]

The cheapo DC voltmeters are a little slow on the uptick. I have one on my Triumph, and the readings are similar when running (kicker only so no starter crank), and when at >3500 RPM I get the 14V+

So considering my original battery on the IIID died a few months back and in light of all this talk I thought I'd check the running voltage.

I have a little digital voltage check gauge that attaches directly to the SAE Battery Tender harness plug. So I used an extension and ran it up to the handlebar bag where I placed the gauge in the cell phone display panel.

I was a little surprised by the results but it sounds normal:

* Key on/engine off - 12.9 V
* Cranking - drops to around 11.0 V
* Idle: ~12.6 - 13.0 V
* Partial throttle/pulling away ~ 13.2 - 13.7 V
* At speed 14.4 V

What surprised me was just how much the voltage dropped at idle and the length of time (maybe 5-10 seconds) it took to build back up as I pulled away.

[Kiwi_Roy]

KIwi can you get away with using the old gasket and grommet?

I never dislodged the grommet but I think you would need to use fresh gasket cement.
I re-used the original gasket when I took a look at mine, I didn't use any cement, doesn't seem to be leaking. 
it will be interesting to see what Piaggio include with the kit.
Hopefully they include the replacement procedure.
I think my parts are at least 1 week away.

Heres what Bert had to say, his manual seems to have the procedure for replacing the stator.

As I advised KR via PM, the engine manual says "apply a great amount of threebond on the cable grommet"; "Check that plentiful threebond leaks out and covers all space between the seat of the cover and the cable grommet"; and "Apply another layer of threebond over the cable grommet."  Threebond is "A synthetic rubber, visco-elastic sealer that is semi-drying." You also need a new cover gasket -- no dressing mentioned although I'm partial to Hylomar.
 

Bert, could you make sure we have the good oil on this procedure please
Thanks
Roy

[Bert Remington]

KR -- I had to look that one up.  Fortunately your avatar said you were in Canada.

I sent a PM of service manual photos to interested parties from my PM to Kiwi_Roy on: July 04, 2020, 07:46:49 PM

[Kiwi_Roy]

I sent a PM of service manual photos to interested parties from my PM to Kiwi_Roy on: July 04, 2020, 07:46:49 PM

Yes you did, I used that to show the dealer I had tested the stator in accordance with the manual even though the manual was confused.
Its tricky taking pictures and readings at the same time as holding the revs just right.

[Vagrant]

next question for the experts is, can the stator be re-wound or rebuilt locally seeing as a Guzzi unit is $550?

[Bert Remington]

With the offshoring of vehicle components at all assembly levels, high labor component repair has disappeared in favor of low labor component replacement.  I'm pretty sure even rebuilders are mostly replacers not repairers with the failed components recycled for metals.  If you do find an alternator repair service, it will probably be mail-in.

When I was looking up part numbers for KR, the stator was not sold separately but rather in combination with the rotor and related items.  Add the usual logistics overhead and $550 seems about right.

I'm not quite sure what you are trying to achieve.  Do you have a shorted phase stator problem?  An open phase regulator problem?  A tired battery problem? An overheated or high resistance wiring or connector problem?  If you know, then replace the problem item with the aftermarket items suggested earlier.  If you don't know, replace all items and move on.  It's time to put some fun back into your V7 III riding.

[guzzisteve]

You might call - http://www.motoelekt.com/order.htm    His rotors for Bosch are wound by an aircraft guy for him. Might be worth a try, he's over in AL not too far. I think his name is Rick Jones(been awhile).