clutch pull

[Huzo]

How does a malfunctioning thrust washer translate into a more difficult clutch pull ?
Is the weight of the clutch pull, not just a function of the force required to compress the springs via the associated mechanism ?

[lucky phil]

How does a malfunctioning thrust washer translate into a more difficult clutch pull ?
Is the weight of the clutch pull, not just a function of the force required to compress the springs via the associated mechanism ?

Because if it s actually not fitted or has fallen apart it starts grinding its way into the piston and you loose clutch travel and get masses of friction from the piston damage I guess. Like I said Its from the latest book by a guy that's been working on and selling them for 30 odd years. it's not hard to check anyway I dont think.

Ciao

[MMRanch]

So malik and Lucky phil

Can I replace the Thrust bearing with-out pulling the motor ?

[John A]

  through the timing plug pry the crank aft   

?

This is my  first guzzi , is the timing plug on the front or rear ?     Are the clutch throw-out bearings troublesome on Guzzis ?

Yep, I called the rubber plug in the right side bellhousing the timing plug,  that’s where you used to see the flywheel marks for timing. What you’d be checking in this case would be crankshaft end play. After reading your posts again, I doubt it’s the trouble but I don’t know what is.  I’ve heard of a couple throw out bearing anomaly’s but never had any trouble with our smallblocks so it’ll take someone smarter than I

[lucky phil]

So malik and Lucky phil

Can I replace the Thrust bearing with-out pulling the motor ?

Yes I believe its very easy to check but I haven't worked on a SB but others might want to chime in with the details. Item 9 page 65 was missing/not installed at the factory.

http://www.thisoldtractor.com/mg_manuals/spare_parts_catalog_v7_classic_2008.pdf

Ciao

[malik]

So malik and Lucky phil

Can I replace the Thrust bearing with-out pulling the motor ?

Yes. Re-read Reply #24. Should all be there. 
You won't need to take the motor out. You will need to remove the rear wheel. You might be able to get to it without taking the swingarm off (tie it up), but you'll have clear access with the swingarm removed - and that's a stunningly easy job.

[Sasquatch Jim]

 If it is none of the stuff mentioned already, maybe you are just getting old and feeble.
 It will eventually happen to all who live long enough.
 It has happened to me. I can no longer strangle cows for the slaughterhouse.

[MMRanch]

 

Jim wrote
    If it is none of the stuff mentioned already, maybe you are just getting old and feeble.
 It will eventually happen to all who live long enough. 

I hope to live so long !   
................... ................... ..................

I've only got three bikes at the time , but its hard to pass a bike shop with-out stopping to pull a few clutch levers .   I'm sure it not just me .   The clutch pull motion is meeting way to much resistance .   I've already pulled (over stressed ) one clutch cable in two and now headed to doing the same thing again.

................... ................... .........

Alright , so my next move is to take the rear tire off and maybe the swing arm , then have a look at what's behind the clutch release shaft.    That a good picture !   

   nothing is going to fall out that I can't put back is it ??? 

[malik]

No, nothing will fall out. You'll have trouble getting the thrust bearing to come out - that smear of oil helps to keep it in. I use a magnet held against a screwdriver to take the 3 parts of it out.

(The photo wouldn't work - I'll try another source)

The older version used by Guzzi has cupped washers, the updated version has flat washers.

Do ensure that the o-ring on the outer body is sound. They are usually quite robust, and especially with your mileage, should be pristine.

[Tom H]

I've been thinking about this.

The hand lever is hard to pull. If I read right, the cable has a Teflon or something liner. Could the liner be melted or binding?

Can you remove the cable from the hand lever as well as the trans lever and see if you can push and pull the cable through its housing?

If the cable moves freely in its housing, then the pro let is elsewhere.

Your symptoms make me think of how my non lined cables start to feel when I need to lube them.

Just a thought,
Tom

[Muzz]

While you are in there Ranch:

watch for the spring that keeps the actuating lever from pushing on the bearing under normal use; they can go a long way once you release the cable.

there is an adjustment on that actuating lever.  It is a pain to get at with the swingarm still on.  it would be a good time to set the adjustment there, then work back to the others such as the one on the clutch lever.  You want the one on the arm to be sitting as close to 90 deg as you can to get the maximum mechanical advantage when using the clutch.  The adjustment is a "bolt" with flats on the top and fixed with a lock nut.  The other end has a sort of ball shaped rocker which works on the extension that comes out of the thrust bearing setup.

the plate part of that extension should be fairly close to flush with the gearbox casing.  if it is quite a ways in then Houston, there may be a problem.

when removing the swingarm there will be a washer on the (I'm pretty sure) rhs side bearing.  That is used to cenralise the swingarm.  When you go to reassemble there is a sequence to go through.  Firm up that side first, lock, then firm up the other side.

while you are in there it is a good time to grease the splines.  Luigi lost his greasepot back in 1921 and he's still looking for it.

I give the bearings set in the gearbox casing a good spin by hand to get any grease in them redistributed and put the balls in a different spot.  As the mileage creeps up on the bike I actually carefully ping the outer seal and put a heap more grease in them as well.

As Mal has said, the job is pretty straight forward but if in doubt, ask.  Mal has thousands of kms under his belt with smallblocks so knows them pretty much inside out.

[MMRanch]

  there is an adjustment on that actuating lever.  It is a pain to get at with the swingarm 

Yea , I found that one when the original cable ran out of adjustment 12,000 miles ago.   The arm at the transmission is really close to being 90 deg. w/transmission.   When I get into getting it done I'll put a allen head bolt in it instead of that mini-spoke wrench head.   I've got two rides in Sept for the V7 so I'm going to let it ride till Oct. 

I had a thought about a longer arm at the transmission ?   Do the Guzzi Big-Blocks use a similar system ?   It seems that an extra 1/2" of leverage would make a world of difference.   ?   
................... ................... ....

Tom thanks for the thought ... its a new cable , free moving and clean as a new cable inside and out ... but it feels just like the old on did in use.

If I ever get my hands on the springs inside the clutch its-self ... I'll be figuring a way to loose some of the tension , there ain't no way that 48HP needs that much pressure to hold it to the flywheel.   I've ridden 148HP bikes that didn't have that much pressure. 

[malik]

It would be a good idea to bail up some other V7 riders & compare clutch pulls. The pulls on mine & others I've ridden are firm, but not hard. I've found that the cable routing does have an effect. I aim that right angle bend at the top towards the rear now, rather than frontwards as it came, and at the same time try to minimise any other bends & touches along the way. Some light oil where the top end of the outer goes into the clutch perch, and at the bottom end where the outer fits into that bracket on top of the gearbox also helps. Again the pivot pin on the clutch operating arm has to move freely. The spring behind it is only light, and without the cable attached, should be a one finger push & return. I would also try changing the clutch lever (handlebar end) and the perch, before taking the gearbox out - there's so much work in that job it should be avoided as long as possible. Best of luck.

[Muzz]

See if it translates as it shows "not available".

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32803624065.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.27424c4dHbhDFf

Checked, and yes.  I have found these to be very good indeed and beautiful quality.  because of the shape of the actual lever i can get a bit more travel than the original set-up. which is good as I have them adjusted to be as close to the bar as possible due to my short fingers.

[MMRanch]

Muzzy those looks good , I'm getting a pair of them !   

[Muzz]

Muzzy those looks good , I'm getting a pair of them !   

Those are for the Breva of course.  In AliExpress they are listed under ropes and cables.  Those ones are adjustable, foldable and extendable.  Already paid for themselves when the bike fell over in gravel.  Folded up nicely.  I see there are some now where you can get them with the Guzzi eagle engraved on the lever.  my red and black combo match the Breva beautifully.

[greer]

Come up and try mine, MM.  Check your messages.

Sarah

[cleatusj]

Take the clutch lever and perch off the handlebars, mount to a 3/4" pope or another set of  bars. With the cable ran as straight as possible, check to see if the pull has lessened much. This will tell if routeing is the problem.

[MMRanch]

I want to go to the Fall Creek Falls outing on Saturday (26th) for a day ride.    I hope to be there about noon or so.  There might be a V-7 or two there ?   The V7III's at Sloans'  all have  have nice easy clutches and the V-9 Roamer that I had was a nice easy clutch.   

My question is are all the V7-II's like mine ?   
I've installed a pair of those adjustable handle levers and have ordered one of those "Easy-Pull" contraptions from e-bay . 
I've had some success with some larger diameter cable ends adapters I made .  With them all greased up , the cable strait as I can get it , and the adjustable levers on #2 or #3 then I can live with it till the Easy-Pull thing gets here.

I know this might sound strange ?   
................... ..
Its been my experience that springs loose their tension over time - especially if they are left in a compressed state for any length of time .  And we all know that metal expands and gets weaker as it get hot/warmer.   
So ...
To help my clutch springs loose tension sooner , I'm running the springs through cycles of cooling down from hot with the clutch pulled , then staying compressed till I need to ride again --- then repeat.
After only four cycles it seems better already !   

[greer]

Just went to compare my V7II against Doug's Roamer, the V7 definitely has a heavier clutch pull.  Not a drastic difference, but noticeable.

Sarah

[usedtobefast]

So I've been watching the TV show "House" on amazon prime ... where the team knocks around ideas for the ailing patient ... spitting out ideas, ideas getting shot down, etc ... was laughing a bit reading this as it sounds like a Moto Guzzi version of a House episode.   

The thing that bothers me about this is the pull (tension) has gotten worse and worse over time and a properly routed new cable didn't fix that. 

I would take a look into that V7 ii rare-ish issue of the crank thrust bearing.   Lots of great info here:  https://www.guzzitech.com/forums/threads/v7-ii-engine-failures-clutch-adjust-notice.16098/ 

It seems these usually died in the 500 miles - 3000 mile range, so maybe, and hopefully, that isn't your issue, but worth checking.  And one symptom of this is frequent clutch adjustments ... adjust free play, then it tightens up, adjust free play again, and it tightens up, etc etc.  And it seems like you mentioned that.  And once it is worn more and more you would get to the point that you just can't pull the clutch lever in any more.

For the clutch rod thrust bearing, if one of those is worn a bit, does that really make the clutch pull overly stiff?  I'm not sure of the symptoms on that.  And also not sure how common that is.

[lucky phil]

So I've been watching the TV show "House" on amazon prime ... where the team knocks around ideas for the ailing patient ... spitting out ideas, ideas getting shot down, etc ... was laughing a bit reading this as it sounds like a Moto Guzzi version of a House episode.   

The thing that bothers me about this is the pull (tension) has gotten worse and worse over time and a properly routed new cable didn't fix that. 

I would take a look into that V7 ii rare-ish issue of the crank thrust bearing.   Lots of great info here:  https://www.guzzitech.com/forums/threads/v7-ii-engine-failures-clutch-adjust-notice.16098/ 

It seems these usually died in the 500 miles - 3000 mile range, so maybe, and hopefully, that isn't your issue, but worth checking.  And one symptom of this is frequent clutch adjustments ... adjust free play, then it tightens up, adjust free play again, and it tightens up, etc etc.  And it seems like you mentioned that.  And once it is worn more and more you would get to the point that you just can't pull the clutch lever in any more.

For the clutch rod thrust bearing, if one of those is worn a bit, does that really make the clutch pull overly stiff?  I'm not sure of the symptoms on that.  And also not sure how common that is.

My suggestion re this was not wear but the bearing was missing from the factory.

Ciao

[Zoom Zoom]

As far as I know, the V7II has the same 6 speed as the V7III. (I am aware the ratios are different on 1st and 6th.) Anyway, it's not likely anything else changed between these variants with regard to the gearbox.

So, although I can agree to slight variations from bike to bike, they should all be pretty close. As I said before, my V7III has a very light pull.

The OP already stated it used to be okay.THAT MEANS SOMETHING HAS CHANGED!!!

Rather than masking the trouble with some aftermarket gizzy, you NEED to address the source of the trouble. If it isn't a cable, lever, or actuating arm, you have to dig deeper. If you have something wrong in there, it could possibly lead to other damage and cost more to fix.

Trying to mask the problem with, in this case a torque multiplier, is not fixing your trouble. It is only masking it.

John Henry 

[Chuck in Indiana]

^^^^ Wat ZZ sez.
Remember the airliner crash? The pilot was "Sum Ding Wong.." true story, I saw it on the TV.. 
 

[MMRanch]

I'll get at pulling the throw-out-bearing soon as I can .    I need to use the bike this next week for a Ozark ride next week so I can't go taking it apart right now.   
 
I've got a Corbin two seater seat on it , a pair of 40L HB side cases , and a 40L trunk ... its my "WE-BIKE"
so its the ride for next week -
The W-650 is waiting for a chain ,
My Suzuki S-40 is a fun bike for ridding solo and can do two up for short trips ... but
The V-7II is the one I need next week.    I'll just grin and bear it .   

As strange as it sounds ... the measures to weaken the clutch springs has already helped a lot , its not as smooth and easy as the Roamer was and probably never will be , but its better than it was two weeks ago. 

I'll post what happens when I pull the tire off and get a look into the bearing situation , Thanks for all the ideas - I at least know where to start soon as I can get to it. 

You fellers are a good bunch to have on hand ... especially if ya have a Guzzi in the other hand !