Breva 1100 starter circuit

[dragger]

I have a 2006 Breva 1100. When I bought the bike the previous owner had an aftermarket toggle switch hooked to the starter. I wanted to fix the circuit so the factory starter button would work.

I plugged the factory connector back into the solenoid. I hooked the yellow wire straight to the battery through a fused connector. All I get is 1 loud click at the solenoid. I swapped relays around with no change. I can jumper the yellow and orange wire and the starter spins like normal.

I checked the voltage on the relay connector for the other two wires and 1 shows 12.5 volts the other shows 3.5 until I hit the switch and then drops to millivolts.

The wire that is 3.5 volts I think traces back to the ECU but not sure because the diagram I have the colors don’t seem to totally match and I have color vision issues too.

I appreciate any ideas to fix this right before I just go back to the toggle.

[guzzisteve]

Search     Startus Interuptus   you'll find much info.

[Kiwi_Roy]

http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2005_Breva_1100.gif
The starter solenoid will pull 40-50 Amps for a split second
The yellow wire to pin 3 of the start relay is too weak to supply the current the solenoid needs
The yellow needs to be snipped off close to the relay and fed directly from the battery through a 20 Amp fuse.
The wire shown here as Orange/green between the relay/5 and the solenoid is too small, increase it in size to a 16 gauge or equivalent.

[dragger]

I have already run the yellow wire straight to the battery through a fuse. When I remove the relay and use a jumper wire to manually make the connection between the yellow and orange wire the starter works it's only when I try to use the starter button that I get a click.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Then try a different relay, swap in the headlight relay

The other thing it could be is the Red/Black wire from relay (29) is not maintaining 12 Volts.
I have seen before where the owner accidentally pinched the cable to the speed sensor which caused the fuse to blow, you can unplug the connector in the engine area to isolate the cable to the sensor.
Terminal 1 should be +12 Volts relative to chassis    You mentioned this in your original post
Terminal 2 should also be 12 Volts relative to chassis  if the relay is in place until you press Start when it will go to <1 Volt as the ECU pulls it to ground.
I don't think you will measure anything at terminal 2 if the relay is not plugged in.
Is the side-stand switch working correctly, this is one of the inputs that must be in place for the ECU to turn on the Start signal at pin 1
-----------------------
Another way to check this out would be to substitute a small 12V lamp or test light between 1 & 2 of the relay socket, it should light up when you press start.

[dragger]

Swapped relays around same thing. Terminal 1 shows 12.4 volts. Terminal 2 shows 3.5 volts until I press start then drops to <1 (relay out).

I found a post from 2016 with this issue but no closure posts saying if they ever figured it out. Close as it got was to theorizing that the issue was in the ECU but no confirmation.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Terminal 2 should show the same Voltage as terminal 1 as the Voltage will come through the relay coil which is around 100-120 Ohms
Try the lamp test I added, there should be no lamp until you press start also inspect the relay socket, are the pins 1 & 2 making proper contact?

[Wayne Orwig]

I plugged the factory connector back into the solenoid. I hooked the yellow wire straight to the battery through a fused connector. All I get is 1 loud click at the solenoid. I swapped relays around with no change. I can jumper the yellow and orange wire and the starter spins like normal.

I don't think you are talking about the common 'startus interuptus'.

It sounds like you are saying that the starter solenoid DOES actually pull in, at least temporarily. That 1 loud click.

So if the solenoid pulls in, is it dropping back out, or just not spinning the starter?
If it is just not spinning, maybe the contacts in the solenoid need cleaning. As in they make contact and work with a strong signal, but just not making good contact with a poor signal. I'm not sure you can get to those contacts to clean them.
If it is firing, then dropping back out. I don't even know where to begin to look at an issue like that. Me, I would have my oscope on the wire to see what was going on. I would assume a large voltage drop when the starter kicks, which causes the ECU to drop everything. Maybe a poor ground from the battery to the engine block.

[dragger]

Yes the solenoid pulls in but does not spin the starter. I will try to use my test light across the terminals.

Thinking I might be better off to go back to the momentary toggle the previous owner had setup.

[Wayne Orwig]

Yes the solenoid pulls in but does not spin the starter. I will try to use my test light across the terminals.

Thinking I might be better off to go back to the momentary toggle the previous owner had setup.

Does the solenoid kick back out quickly, or does it sound like it stays pulled in?
You can get replacement starters or replacement starter parts fairly cheaply.

[dragger]

One loud thunk then if I wait a few seconds and hit the button again it will do it again but not back to back rapidly. Just seems weird that the solenoid engages and the starter spins when i connect it manually.

[Kiwi_Roy]

After verifying the relay primary circuit with a lamp.
I think Wayne is onto something the starting load may be telling the ECU the battery is too low and shutting it off again.
Scrape clean and grease both battery terminals.
Remove the starter to get at the main ground connection behind and scrape and grease that also, that's a known trouble point on the Breva.

[Brian UK]

I have had this problem for years on my Norge, get a loud clunk from the solenoid but the starter doesn't turn.
I did the yellow wire direct to the battery mod years ago, having had to do the same thing on much older guzzis for the same reason.
But the problem still persisted.

Finally solved the problem by increasing the wire gauge ( by about double) on the direct connection to the battery, and ALSO the wire from the relay down to the solenoid.

It now starts every time.

One other thing I found some time back was that the solenoid plunger was covered in sticky grease. Cleaned all that off and put the faintest smear of light oil over it. That did improve things for a time.

By the way, at one point I knew the battery wasn't fully charged so I checked the voltage while trying to start. It went down to just over 9 volts, but the starter still turned. So in my experience, provided the dash sees adequate voltage when the start button is pressed it will operate the starter, and won't stop if the voltage then drops lower.

[dragger]

Used my test light between terminals 1 & 2. When the starter button is pressed it lights for a few seconds then goes off. Removed starter and cleaned every connection I could find including the battery terminals. Still no luck. Is the solenoid only attached with the 1 torn screw?

[Wayne Orwig]

Used my test light between terminals 1 & 2. When the starter button is pressed it lights for a few seconds then goes off. Removed starter and cleaned every connection I could find including the battery terminals. Still no luck. Is the solenoid only attached with the 1 torn screw?

I think it has torx screws that you get at inside. Not hard to do. I don't remember if you can get to the contacts though.

 

[Kiwi_Roy]

If it cranks when you hot wire it why not when the relay powers it up, the relay has a better contact than most switches?

As Wayne suggested the ECU is seeing something wrong and turning it straight off again. As I said the inrush to the solenoid is 40 - 50 Amps
I suggest its seeing low Voltage and turning off the start signal.
Check the main ground behind the starter, I had a problem there with my Griso, essentially the same bike.
Do you have another battery you could swap in to try.
Fix your multimeter to the wiring somewhere and watch the Voltage while it cranks, the park light in the headlight is a good point to monitor., my V7 with a new battery can drop to 10 Volts at cranking sometimes.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Is there any way you can wire the test light up in parallel with the relay coil then it will indicate what's happening under load.
One other thing you can do is fix the negative terminal of your Voltmeter to chassis, touch the positive lead to the hot wire on the starter solenoid, it should show 12 Volts and probably drop down to about 10 while cranking.
If it drops really low say < 6 then move the positive lead to the battery negative terminal. If the ground is bad the meter will read negative when you load the battery.
I feel confident you will find the problem shortly.
I'm assuming at this stage you have direct battery Voltage on pin 3 of the start relay. If not watch the park light bulb as you press start, its fed from the weak yellow feed and will indicate the Voltage present by its brightness.

[dragger]

Yes I have the yellow wire straight to battery I even rigged up a wire to try running a larger wire to the starter solenoid. I took off the starter again and cleaned the solenoid and it moves freely still no luck. Doing the tests you listed I get 12.8 at the starter wire then 12.6 when cranking.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Measure the Voltage on the spade connector of the solenoid then trace it back to the relay while trying to start (I assume its nice and tight)
It doesn't make sense that it cranks with the bypass switch and not via the relay.
Here is a sketch I did of the Valeo starter, you can see two coils in the solenoid, the one in series with the motor pulls 40 Amps the other to ground pulls 10
As soon as the main contacts close the first coil drops to zero as it has the same Voltage on both ends.

[Wayne Orwig]

Yes I have the yellow wire straight to battery I even rigged up a wire to try running a larger wire to the starter solenoid. I took off the starter again and cleaned the solenoid and it moves freely still no luck. Doing the tests you listed I get 12.8 at the starter wire then 12.6 when cranking.

Are you saying that a wire directly to the battery does NOT work, but a jumper with a switch are the starter DOES work?
 

[dragger]

I meant I made up a jumper wire to temporarily replace the orange wire from the relay to the solenoid. Got around 12.5 volts from it. Still just 1 loud click.

For now I just went back to a toggle switch hooked straight from the battery to the solenoid.

[Charles in Lake Charles]

On the Might Convert, I have a motorcycle push button switch connected directly to starter from the battery via a fuse.

Works  great every time.

[Wayne Orwig]

I meant I made up a jumper wire to temporarily replace the orange wire from the relay to the solenoid. Got around 12.5 volts from it. Still just 1 loud click.

For now I just went back to a toggle switch hooked straight from the battery to the solenoid.

As in loud click from the solenoid?

Can you measure the voltage at the solenoid, coming from the relay, keep the meter connected then hit and hold the starter button. About what voltage does it jump to at first, and about what voltage does it 'hold' at?

[Cafeman]

I meant I made up a jumper wire to temporarily replace the orange wire from the relay to the solenoid. Got around 12.5 volts from it. Still just 1 loud click.

For now I just went back to a toggle switch hooked straight from the battery to the solenoid.

Wondering what ultimately was determined to be the issue? Found your thread after searching as I recently bought a 2006 Breva 1100 with about 22,000 miles. Has a 3 year old AGM battery, and the battery direct to relay wiring. In the last few weeks it’s developed the same loud click at the starter solenoid. Cleaned all connections and that seemed to help until about a 2 week no riding period. Now it does it and won’t start, unless I do as you by supplying battery power directly to the solenoid. Bike has been on a wall wart Battery Tender by previous owner and I continued that after buying. I got essentially the same voltage readings as you at the relay terminals, checked everything, cleaned and tested for voltage at each connection. Was seeing about12.5/3.4 and then 12.2+/- when pressing the start button.
Battery was showing approx 12.9 at rest. I assumed the battery was fine. But on a whim, Connected a lithium battery jump start/booster to the battery. Bike fired right up, every time I tried. Luckily I have an EarthX LiFePO4 battery from another vehicle that is a perfect fit, rests at 13.35 or so, cranks like the dickens. I also replaced the thin wire from relay to solenoid with a 12g wire for good measure. Again, I just assumed the battery was not the issue due to age and the voltage I was seeing. Looks like the ECU requires a bit more than 12.2 to let the bike start.....I’m suspicious of the Battery Tender use all this time possibly hurting that battery.

[fotoguzzi]

..I’m suspicious of the Battery Tender use all this time possibly hurting that battery.

me too.. I never use them if I don’t have to or just put on for a day and never leave on for extended periods.

My Norge doing the same thing but I have other bigger problems to solve before worrying about it.

[guzzisteve]

What does the voltage drop w/you press start? Measure that for your load test, do it at the spade connector on solenoid for reality.
Another test is batt + directly to spade on solenoid, how slow it cranks.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Startus Interruptus for sure
https://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2005_Breva_1100.gif
probably loosing Voltage across the ignition switch, you will see that in the plate light going dim when you press start.
Measure the Voltage at the solenoid spade connector, you will probably find it dips down to below 6 when you press the start button.
try pulling the switch apart for a good cleaning.

[Cafeman]

My situation has been solved. Better battery, all connections and switches cleaned, thicker wire from relay to solenoid, thicker battery positive and ground cables, Cranks and fires instantly. The powerful lithium battery really made the difference. I see dragger has been here since my reawakening of his post but he hasn’t followed up on what his status is..