Dreaded CLICK-nuthin, PRESS-start syndrome

[mojohand]

Bike: 2008 Moto Guzzi Norge with 28K miles
Installed: Starter interruptus

Circumstances: When my brother tries to start his Norge, sometimes when it's sat for awhile (first thing in the morning or after lunch), he presses the starter and gets the CLICK once. He then presses the starter again and the bike fires up. Yet sometimes in the morning the bike fires right up, and sometimes after gassing up (that is, it's been ridden for awhile) it clicks.

Any thoughts? Directions to look in?

[Lannis]

First thing is ALWAYS to load-test the battery.

Second thing should always be to check the battery connections and ground connections.

After that, you know that it's not what causes this problem 90% of the time; it's something more rare.

Lannis

[Wayne Orwig]

Bike: 2008 Moto Guzzi Norge with 28K miles
Installed: Starter interruptus

Circumstances: When my brother tries to start his Norge, sometimes when it's sat for awhile (first thing in the morning or after lunch), he presses the starter and gets the CLICK once. He then presses the starter again and the bike fires up. Yet sometimes in the morning the bike fires right up, and sometimes after gassing up (that is, it's been ridden for awhile) it clicks.

Any thoughts? Directions to look in?

Is it a LOUD CLUNK from the starter, or a faint click from the small relay under the seat?

[Tom]

Inquiring minds want to know.

[SLDMRossi]

Typical low amperage through the Starter relay syndrome. I've dealt with it on everything from my 1981 V50 to 2008 1200 Sport, and everything in between. It's amazing that such old habits die hard in the way of Moto Guzzi electrical engineering.

https://www.guzzitech.com/forums/threads/modern-no-start-issue-solution.4908/

Steven Rossi
East Haddam, CT

[Kiwi_Roy]

Typical Startus Interuptus.
The wiring cannot support the current the starter solenoid requires.
The starter solenoid will draw 50 Amps while it is pulling the starter gear into mesh, the way its wired it is lucky to get 30 at the best of times.
You wouldn't expect a 20 Volt drill to operate on just 12 Volts so why do you expect a solenoid that's designed for 50 Amps to operate on 60% of what its designed for?
The electrical designers at Guzzi don't know how the starter works, that's the problem.
The yellow feed to the start relay is too weak, you can see this if you watch the city light (park light) at the same time as pushing the start button.
The light will dim right down until the solenoid is engaged then if it finally starts to crank you will se it brighten up as the high current coil is switched out of circuit.

[mojohand]

Inquiring minds want to know.

Loud clunk

[Brian UK]

Yes, that's all too common. As Roy said, the yellow feed to the start relay is too feeble, plus it is routed up and down the bike, through the ignition switch, which does not have contacts capable of taking the solenoid current.

The cure is to add a direct wire from the battery terminal (through an inline fuse) to the terminal on the start relay. Use cable of about twice the cross sectional area of the original yellow wire.
And while you are in there, also replace the wire from that relay down to the solenoid with a similar gauge wire.

The problem will then go away, assuming the battery is OK.

[Wayne Orwig]

Loud clunk

Sounds like the solenoid is getting pulled. The typical 'startus interuptus' does not pull the solenoid. Plus you have the 'fix' installed.

If the solenoid if falling back out, I would suspect a back battery connection (including the ground at the motor case) or even a bad battery.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Loud clunk

Sounds like the solenoid is getting pulled. The typical 'startus interuptus' does not pull the solenoid. Plus you have the 'fix' installed.

If the solenoid if falling back out, I would suspect a back battery connection (including the ground at the motor case) or even a bad battery.

Maybe just a bad solenoid or complete starter?

[Rsokohl]

Here’s a video of the issue . Couple of things. My battery is over 13 cold. 13.3 running. It already has the startup interuptus fix installed ( thanks Wayne) it does this clunk you will see in the video and then always starts on the second try. There also no pattern I can pick up. It will not do this then do it. Sometimes when off for a while sometimes not. Sometimes hot sometimes cold . Thoughts?

https://vimeo.com/470039349/8790c3e35b

[Chuck in Indiana]

<whistling> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0081SAT1I/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

[Triple Jim]

<whistling> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0081SAT1I/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Man, that's less than you could get them for a couple years ago!

[Kiwi_Roy]

Bike: 2008 Moto Guzzi Norge with 28K miles
Installed: Starter interruptus

Circumstances: When my brother tries to start his Norge, sometimes when it's sat for awhile (first thing in the morning or after lunch), he presses the starter and gets the CLICK once. He then presses the starter again and the bike fires up. Yet sometimes in the morning the bike fires right up, and sometimes after gassing up (that is, it's been ridden for awhile) it clicks.

Any thoughts? Directions to look in?

Are you sure the Startus Interuptus fix is applied to the right relay?
Unplug the start  relay (3) and make sure the 3 terminal in the socket is alive with the key turned OFF
https://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2007_Norge.gif
The orange/green wire from terminal 5 to the spade connection on the solenoid needs to be a 16AWG or equivalent, I don't believe MPH takes care of that.

If you suspect it might be the battery pull out your Voltmeter and measure the Voltage while trying to crank, even at 10 Volts it should crank strongly.
If it doesn't spin it could be the magnets have let go or a worn bushing if its an old Bosch unlikely on a Norge, pull it apart and look for signs of the armature rubbing the fields.

[Chuck in Indiana]

Yep, I gave close to $70 for the first one.  I liked it so much I put one on the AeroLario, too. It was about $65. Buy now, before the price goes even lower..

[SLDMRossi]

As previously mentioned, check the battery first! I just had a nice, new sealed AGM unit go bad after only six months! And it was on a Tender.

Since it was essentially a brand new battery...and I already have the wiring update...I assumed it just had to be the starter.

Wrong...

Steven Rossi

[JJ]

First thing is ALWAYS to load-test the battery.

Second thing should always be to check the battery connections and ground connections.

After that, you know that it's not what causes this problem 90% of the time; it's something more rare.

Lannis

*** BINGO!! *** - - - and another testament for the use of a battery tender...

[Wayne Orwig]

Here’s a video of the issue . Couple of things. My battery is over 13 cold. 13.3 running. It already has the startup interuptus fix installed ( thanks Wayne) it does this clunk you will see in the video and then always starts on the second try. There also no pattern I can pick up. It will not do this then do it. Sometimes when off for a while sometimes not. Sometimes hot sometimes cold . Thoughts?

https://vimeo.com/470039349/8790c3e35b

From that video......
First, my hearing is bad and it is hard to judge WHERE the noises are from. But, I believe I hear the louder CLUNK of the starter solenoid, followed later by the starter eventually working. That is likely a bad solenoid on the starter.
I do NOT see the dash lights or gauges drop out, so I would guess the the battery is fine, and the battery cabling is probably fine.
The same video, with sound from near the starter, may help to be certain. But I think a new starter is in your future. The solenoid may just need cleaned too. Not sure you can get to the contacts though.

[Wayne Orwig]

I just had a nice, new sealed AGM unit go bad after only six months! And it was on a Tender.

That is because Battery Tenders often kill batteries. You'll see this type comment a LOT. Usually followed by people defending them.

Get a good charger. My last AGM battery lasted 12 years using a Battery Minder.

[SLDMRossi]

Truth be told, the best way to maintain a battery is to...disconnect it!

All of my antique cars and old cars can sit for months, and start right up. Why? No parasitic load from computer ECMs. That's the real problem...

SR

[John Croucher]

My fix, put the bike in gear and bump it forward or backwards to rotate the flywheel slightly. Works every time.

[Kiwi_Roy]

At about 29 seconds I hear the starter engage but it doesn't have enough grunt to turn over, you need to know the Voltage at that point, it should hold at least 10 Volts from Positive to chassis.
I would say thats a bad battery or a bad ground, take the starter off and clean up where the ground makes contact and add some grease to the connection, the CARC bikes are known for that.
 
Also measure from negative to chassis, that should stay close to zero (<0.5V) while cranking otherwise there is too much resistance in the ground.

[Lannis]

I would say thats a bad battery or a bad ground,

That's what 90% of these problems are, but no one ever wants to load test the battery and see if it will supply current.   Been 5 weeks now and no one has done it on this one, at least not that we've heard.   It's a very strange thing, but very common behavior! 

Lannis

[Bobic69]

I haven't done the mod but when mine starts playing up I give the battery terminals a clean and I'm good for awhile.

[Tom H]

Load testing does not always show when you have a bad battery. 2014 F150, dealer and auto parts store both tested my battery. Both said it was good. Not! The battery had an indicator on it that would show green when properly charged. It was always in black, but not red. The symptom was that the truck would tell me to turn off the key or start, low battery. Bought a new battery, problem solved.

Tom

[Lannis]

Load testing does not always show when you have a bad battery. 2014 F150, dealer and auto parts store both tested my battery. Both said it was good. Not!
Tom

That's why I own and operate my battery tester myself, rather than having some shaved ape in a big hurry in a parts store doing it.

If a battery can dump 60 amps for 10 seconds, heating those nicad or carbon elements, and hold 11 - 12 volts while doing it, it's GOOD, end of story ... there's nothing on or about your bike that needs anything more than that.   One of the easiest and most definitive tests you can do in or around a car or motorcycle .....

Lannis

[LowRyter]

I had a similar problem with both my Guzzis.   My EV went through that on and off for about a year.  Finally determined that the fuse for the fuel pump wasn't making good contact.  Had another issue with it dying on me due to another loose fuse.  I just make a habit going over the fuse block with contact cleaner and make sure the fuses are tight.

For my V11 Sport, I've had an issue with the rear most relay having problems connecting.  It seems the more I clean the connectors, the worse it gets.  I just move the relays around and it will finally start (this is not the fuel pump which usually primes, bike turns over but doesn't start).  Then I have another issue where the bike won't turn over, this is usually the connector on the neutral switch.  Sometimes after I spray contact cleaner in the kill switch, it also stays dead for a while.