Comparison survey older vs newer

[Ncdan]

Hi guys. Since I got the 02 Stone I’ve not been riding my 38 year old Honda CB1000 hardly any. I decided to take her out yesterday for an extended ride to visit my ailing sister in the next town over. On the interstate at 75 mph the ole girl is such a pleasure to ride, it floats over the highways imperfections and runs smooth and strong, even with carbs and no computer to assist;)
Of the four guzzis I’ve owned now the 02 is the oldest. I was wondering how the older Guzzis(30 years +) compared with the newer ones, as far as ride, dependability and overall character ?
Have a great day👍

[Kev m]

OIL THREAD.

It's going to be answered like this:

* Guys with old bikes saying how much more reliable they are. - they'll cite how easy they are to fix, no computers, gravity feeds fuel, hundreds of thousands of miles (of course, they had decades more to get there) etc.

* Guys with new bikes saying how much more reliable they are. - they'll cite how they start every time and need little to no work, how easy they are to own, how easy it is to load a map or use Guzzidiag if they want to etc.


Statistically speaking modern machines are much more reliable than their historic counterparts. It comes plain and simply from improvements throughout the industry. People will falsely assume that complexity automatically equals higher failure rates but that is simply not true and has been demonstrated throughout the automotive and recreational vehicle industry for decades. That said, people are gonna like what they like, and are going to be comfortable with what they know. And a "reliable" bike that breaks just once on a guy who doesn't know how to fix it is not "reliable" enough right?

[Dave Swanson]

Hi guys. Since I got the 02 Stone I’ve not been riding my 38 year old Honda CB1000 hardly any. I decided to take her out yesterday for an extended ride to visit my ailing sister in the next town over. On the interstate at 75 mph the ole girl is such a pleasure to ride, it floats over the highways imperfections and runs smooth and strong, even with carbs and no computer to assist;)
Of the four guzzis I’ve owned now the 02 is the oldest. I was wondering how the older Guzzis(30 years +) compared with the newer ones, as far as ride, dependability and overall character ?
Have a great day👍

I was thinking there is no way a CB1000 can be 38 years old so I looked it up.  You meant 28 years old, right?   

[Ncdan]

I was thinking there is no way a CB1000 can be 38 years old so I looked it up.  You meant 28 years old, right?   

1983 to 2020= 37 years old, excuse my miscalculation👍

[Ncdan]

OIL THREAD.

It's going to be answered like this:

* Guys with old bikes saying how much more reliable they are. - they'll cite how easy they are to fix, no computers, gravity feeds fuel, hundreds of thousands of miles (of course, they had decades more to get there) etc.

* Guys with new bikes saying how much more reliable they are. - they'll cite how they start every time and need little to no work, how easy they are to own, how easy it is to load a map or use Guzzidiag if they want to etc.


Statistically speaking modern machines are much more reliable than their historic counterparts. It comes plain and simply from improvements throughout the industry. People will falsely assume that complexity automatically equals higher failure rates but that is simply not true and has been demonstrated throughout the automotive and recreational vehicle industry for decades. That said, people are gonna like what they like, and are going to be comfortable with what they know. And a "reliable" bike that breaks just once on a guy who doesn't know how to fix it is not "reliable" enough right?

Good assessment Kev. I was just wondering how the guys who has owned and ridden both and compared the two much different motorcycles. Thanks for your thoughtful response my friend.

[Dave Swanson]

1983 to 2020= 37 years old, excuse my miscalculation👍

We must be talking about 2 different bikes.  To me a CB1000 looks like this. Made from 1992 to 1996 and first available in the USA in 1994.  Could you be referring to the CB1000 Custom? 

[Gliderjohn]

Having a 75 T-3 and a 2011 Norge 8V here is my take. I bought the T-3 in 89 with 30 some thousand miles on it and I bought the Norge new. Neither has ever made me call for a a tow or a trailer although they have tried a few times. Both are genuine tour bikes. I would take either currently on a cross country ride. Both put a grin on my face. With that said my observed differences...
Hands down the Norge handling and braking is much better and more secure than the T-3. However the T-3 is much better off pavement.
Especially at low speeds (under 10mph) one can really feel the extra weight and top heaviness of the Norge over the T-3, especially with a full tank. Over 10 both do well. The T-3 feels like a much smaller bike.
The T-3 is much more pleasant to ride in stiff crosswinds.
As expected the T-3 is easier to work on, mainly due to the lack of tupperware.
The T-3 has the throttle lock screw which is nice in the wide open of KS. Poor man's cruise control. The Norge throttle is so light just your resting hand wight generally keeps the throttle where you want it.
For me the Norge seat is much more comfortable to spend a whole day on.
Weather protection on the Norge is great. Upper is good on the T-3 with my set up.
If you enjoy having the Guzzi ego strokes the T-3 makes it almost impossible to have a quick stop anywhere as one is regularly approached by people checking it out. Not near so much on the Norge although I do get an occasional compliment on what a nice looking BMW.
Insurance and registration is much less on the T-3 as it is registered as an antique. Insurance liability is under $40 a year and my annual taxes are $11.
Despite there age differences there is no mistaking they are both Guzzi.
Will probably think of more things.



GliderJohn
 

[Ncdan]

We must be talking about 2 different bikes.  To me a CB1000 looks like this. Made from 1992 to 1996 and first available in the USA in 1994.  Could you be referring to the CB1000 Custom? 

We must be talking about 2 different bikes.  To me a CB1000 looks like this. Made from 1992 to 1996 and first available in the USA in 1994.  Could you be referring to the CB1000 Custom? 

1983 Honda CB1000c
In 83 there was also the CB1000F model.

[cliffrod]

I'll vouch for Dan's 83 CB1000.  It's real and really nice and really a 1983.

Kev's points say it all.  I prefer older bikes and doubt much (except a significant and enduring influx of disposable income) will sway me to prefer newer bikes.  I can compare a fair amount of miles on my best friend's purchased-new V7 Classic to my long-owned V7 Sport. There were lots of comments about how "that's just like your bike", "did you finally restore your old Guzzi?" And more.  It was arguably a lot better than my old bike, but I didn't prefer it.  It makes me think of comparing a solid-mounted Sportster to a rubber-mounted Sportster.  Maybe the bikes are supposedly the same, but they're not.  Different feel.  Different experience to ride. Different engine.  Just different.   

That V7 didn't last as long at the shop as other new bikes did before being sold off to the next person.  It didn't speak to him either.   But we prefer older bikes in general, even though we will usually agree that they're old pieces of junk compared to many modern versions.

[Guzzistajohn]

Yes, I wonder how much experience someone has that always makes a point to pontificate on this subject? I have both old and new (er) bikes. I can fix my '80's Guzzi's, because I have more experience with them. I dread having a problem with my newer bike because I'm not as "familiar"

However, I'd rather ride the LMIII over the CX or Cal Vin. The way the 850 delivers the power is just more enjoyable.

[Kev m]

Yes, I wonder how much experience someone has that always makes a point to pontificate on this subject? I have both old and new (er) bikes.

Maybe we should all submit our resumes before we post. </sarcasm>

[oldbike54]

 Most models have a sweet spot where the tech is proven and everything just works . Yeah, New vehicles are more reliable, because they are new . Here is an example , my sister's 2013 Versa has been a less satisfactory vehicle than the 2004 Sentra it replaced . The older car was more nimble and got superior fuel mileage . The Versa will be gone tomorrow , replaced by a new Kia hybrid .

 My take , the '99 -'02 series 1100 CC 2 valvers are in the sweet spot .

 Dusty

[kingoffleece]

I own zero motorcycles older than me.  I approve this message. 

[Kev m]

New vehicles are more reliable, because they are new . Here is an example , my sister's 2013

Uh, yes and no, but that wasn't an example of that.

I purposely didn't address ride or overall character because those are flat out subjective and we all have our preferences. I'm not gonna sit here and tell someone they are wrong for liking something different.

Hell, even though I have a preference for new bikes for an ease of ownership point of view, I fall flatly in the minimal gizmo and I prefer simple over cutting edge performance, so sorta a modern old bike kinda guy.

But back to the reliability thing. I've done the deep dives before on these subjects. New vehicles are more reliable not just because they were just produced and therefore are brand new, but also because the components that make them up tend to last much longer then the ones made decades ago.

I agree that there are unintended consequences with regards to emissions and whatnot that can make them less efficient, and with regards to the automotive world more and more required safety systems add to weight and cost.

[Ncdan]

Let me clarify the heart and soul of my post.
There are definitely different characteristics between older and newer bikes, especially when talking about 30 years difference. I was mostly asking about the difference in their characters and how they make you feel when riding them, no so much as mechanical issues or maintenance issues.
That being said all conversations are welcome. Thanks guys and let’s enjoy sharing our thoughts on the subject with each other keeping in mind we all have different opinions and feelings on this subject and every subject but in the end we are fellow guzzi admirers and fans.

[Kev m]

There are definitely different characteristics between older and newer bikes, especially when talking about 30 years difference. I was mostly asking about the difference in their characters and how they make you feel when riding them, no so much as mechanical issues or maintenance issues.

On that I find that there are equally differences between two different modern bikes too.

Be it old or new I am personally drawn to the ones that aren't TOO perfect or TOO appliance-like. I mean in terms of a certain amount of feedback through the chassis in terms of engine feel, suspension, and other traits. That might mean a certain amount of vibration or feedback that the motor is running or it might mean a less than perfect suspension.

But it's all a sliding scale - I don't want TOO much of that either.

I find what that TOO is, well, is very personal, even in terms of frequency of vibration not even strength of vibration.

I think one man's perfect is another's horrible.

I can't say that to me all of this is found in any one old or new bike.

Air head vs Oilhead vs HexHead etc.

Solidmount Sporty vs Rubbermount Sporty

Tonti Cali vs Cali 1400

Heron head smallblock vs hemi head smallblock

But you'll notice none of those examples are say water cooled, chain driven, VVT, etc. I definitely have my preferences.

[Ncdan]

👍 good Analysis kev and I agree.

[TN Mark]

I've been riding for over 50 years. My oldest bike was a 1960 Stornello and my newest a 2012 Victory. I've enjoyed all but hated only one of the motorcycles I've ever owned. They were all reliable but not all were suitable for differing riding conditions. My 2012 is by far my favorite as it simply does anything and everything I've ever asked of it very well. Plus it's been 100% reliable so I have no reason to doubt it. It has 'enough' technology for me without technology for technologies sake like many newer bikes. Ride modes? Yea, that's fully dependent on my right wrist thank you very much. No Demand Sensor worries for me.

Motorcycles and motorcycling are emotional topics so don't expect your own sound reason to prevail in many aspects of what others enjoy. This is a Moto Guzzi forum so expect Moto Guzzi to be biased in favored over other options. I'm not passionate about owning or riding Vintage motorcycles as I prefer more modern brakes, suspension, fuel management etc. 

From owning over a dozen Guzzis over the years as well as reading and participating on this forum from nearly it's inception, I've learned many things. People on internet forums tend to like what they like with only small allowances available for changes in their opinions or areas open for evaluation.

NCDan, I think your beautifully restored Honda is near perfect. You should be proud of everything you've done to it. I wouldn't hesitate to ride it coast to coast, as long as I could install at least a throttle lock as finger tendon damage on my right hand requires it. But I'd prefer to take that coast to coast ride on my Victory Cross Country Tour.  Both bikes are equally up to the task and can get the job done with loads of fun and adventure along the way.

[blackcat]

For me this mostly breaks down along carbs/points vs. fuel injection/computer.  Personally, I hate messing with points and carbs and that is from mostly trouble free miles on the newer bikes. 

I don't mind having either old or new but I prefer having electronic ignitions on the older ones to cut down on tinkering time.  Same with cars as I own a 1970 car and it became much easier to own when I installed an electronic ignition.

[moto-uno]

 Still own my Le Mans2 (bought new) and my 2018 Eldorado ( also bought new ) , both great fun and yes totally different, then
again , so am I :) . Peter

[Dave Swanson]

1983 Honda CB1000c

Ah yes!  The all important C suffix.  That makes all the difference!   

[Testarossa]

Can't contribute to this because I don't believe I've ever ridden a fuel-injected bike. I kind of enjoy messing with carbs but I've run out of patience with points on any multicylinder bike so I've converted all my old bikes to electronic ignition. That said, my oldest bikes -- the TR6 and 850T -- are the most fun to ride on pavement. Not so much off.

[moto]

This could be a looong thread, so I'll be brief.

I have an 1100 Griso and an 850 T3, both set up with flyscreens and used mostly around southwest Wisconsin. Neither has stranded me over about 30,000 miles on each. I have just taken each on a similar ride of two or three hours through the hilly parts.

The Griso is effortless and powerful, with very good suspension and cornering capability. The T3, by contrast, turns into corners more easily and is easier for me to body-steer and feel at-one with during corners. (The Griso has stock suspension, set up by me following a published guide; the T3 has Wirth progressive fork springs, aftermarket fork dampers (forget the name) and Ikon shocks, all worthwhile and also set up by me.)

The T3 holds a constant speed much better, because of its flywheel. The Griso constantly wandered and reacted to small inputs until I installed an electronic cruise control. Now it holds its speed very well, but it doesn't have the same illusion of train-like inertia as the T3. (That's bad.) They both do well in crosswinds.

I replaced the T3's points with electronic ignition, replaced its cylinders and did a boatload of other work and would not hesitate to take it on long trips (and it's been on some). In some ways, the Griso is a bit more iffy on long trips in terms of support from shops --- IF it ever broke down. Any Volkswagen mechanic could fix the T3, or I could, with the tools I carry. A toss up -- they are both good for long trips. They are both about equally uncomfortable after three or so hours.

I like the lower feel and responsiveness in cornering of the T3 enough to put it on par with the Griso, even though the latter is a stronger performer on the whole.

Moto

Oh, one more thing: I STRONGLY prefer the integral brake setup of the T3, even though the absolute braking power is inferior.

[Ncdan]

Still own my Le Mans2 (bought new) and my 2018 Eldorado ( also bought new ) , both great fun and yes totally different, then
again , so am I :) . Peter

Yea, they had a C- custom and an F- model which was a sport version that was chain driven👍

[Ncdan]

I've been riding for over 50 years. My oldest bike was a 1960 Stornello and my newest a 2012 Victory. I've enjoyed all but hated only one of the motorcycles I've ever owned. They were all reliable but not all were suitable for differing riding conditions. My 2012 is by far my favorite as it simply does anything and everything I've ever asked of it very well. Plus it's been 100% reliable so I have no reason to doubt it. It has 'enough' technology for me without technology for technologies sake like many newer bikes. Ride modes? Yea, that's fully dependent on my right wrist thank you very much. No Demand Sensor worries for me.

Motorcycles and motorcycling are emotional topics so don't expect your own sound reason to prevail in many aspects of what others enjoy. This is a Moto Guzzi forum so expect Moto Guzzi to be biased in favored over other options. I'm not passionate about owning or riding Vintage motorcycles as I prefer more modern brakes, suspension, fuel management etc. 

From owning over a dozen Guzzis over the years as well as reading and participating on this forum from nearly it's inception, I've learned many things. People on internet forums tend to like what they like with only small allowances available for changes in their opinions or areas open for evaluation.

NCDan, I think your beautifully restored Honda is near perfect. You should be proud of everything you've done to it. I wouldn't hesitate to ride it coast to coast, as long as I could install at least a throttle lock as finger tendon damage on my right hand requires it. But I'd prefer to take that coast to coast ride on my Victory Cross Country Tour.  Both bikes are equally up to the task and can get the job done with loads of fun and adventure along the way.

Just one observation mark. I was fortunate enough to have found a totally factory CB with only 4K miles. The Vetter equipment was at the time a dealer option. Thanks for the well thought out response👍

[Shorty]

I guess the answer to this one is the same answer as the thread about travel preferences: the older I get, the less patience I have for drama. So, NO to bikes needing frequent fettling, NO to sleeping on the ground, NO to riding with guys who ride like their arses are on fire.    I'll take boring if it gets me there and back comfortably and without fuss.  Lighter, smaller, easier to get parts. That's my meat.

[Huzo]

I guess the answer to this one is the same answer as the thread about travel preferences: the older I get, the less patience I have for drama. So, NO to bikes needing frequent fettling, NO to sleeping on the ground, NO to riding with guys who ride like their arses are on fire.    I'll take boring if it gets me there and back comfortably and without fuss.  Lighter, smaller, easier to get parts. That's my meat.

That’s a fair statement..
I have a CB 250 Honda under the house if you want it...

[Shorty]

That’s a fair statement..
I have a CB 250 Honda under the house if you want it...

It may come to that.... 

[Ncdan]

That’s a fair statement..
I have a CB 250 Honda under the house if you want it...

Lol, now that was just wrong 😂😂

[lucian]

Great thread Dan, I think Kev pretty much summed it up . I would just like to add that unless your old enough, (as most here are)   to have both perspectives , it is  a difficult question to answer.  i think anyone coming from one side of the equation would find it difficult to even consider, or understand the other alternative. It speaks volumes that a lot of us here that are both old enough and able enough to embrace either of the two options, seem to enjoy the older option the most. That is unless they are heading out across the continent.
 Got to have both is my short answer. 
When I really want to enjoy riding a motorcycle in its purest form there is no delay in the decision,old or new, V50 lets go!  Wouldn't head to North Carolina two up  on it though.