V7 850 Follow-up ... 2 Questions have come up

[Kev m]

Do you really think the V7 850 has less power than the TT? 

Well, the initial CLAIM is for less crankshaft hp than the V7TT currently makes at the rear wheel.

Or are both models detuned to meet Euro 5?

That remains to be seen but I don't know why so many are assuming it needed to be detuned to meet EU5. I mean they knew EU5 was right around the corner and I would have thought they would have addressed it when developing the V85 in the first place.

But we'll know when we know.

[Bulldog9]

I would think the V7 motor was "detuned" much in the same way that Yamaha detuned the motor from the R1 and R6 to put in their FZ1 and FZ6 bikes which were more standard bikes versus race crotch rocket style, and what Kawasaki did with the Concours 1000 and 1400 cc bikes.

Less overall power, and moving torque and horsepower peak lower in the rev range. This would keep the power band more in keeping with the V7 versus the v85.

As Kev said it could also be related to what throttle body they use. If they use the same throttle body and ECU from the v85, or they kept the same throttle body and ECU from the outgoing V7.

complete speculation on my part but I'm thinking that if the new V7 has Rider modes and cruise control and the other features made available by the Ride by throttle system in the v85, you would see those features advertised in the marketing materials. As the only thing mentioned is traction control, I'm going to say that the new V7 likely has the throttle by cable, throttle body and ECU from the outgoing v7. That would account for a loss and power as I think the v85 throttle body is 52 mm and the V7 throttle body is 33 (or close to).

We'll find out one way or another.

[blu guzz]

9,450 and cruise control too.  sign me up.  i don't need another bike, but that would be hard to resist.

[SLDMRossi]

I'll go back to the beginning. It's been detuned because it's in the V7 architecture. Moto Guzzi even mentions that they had to beef-up the V7 headstock in their Announcement to accept the engine. And again, the V7 also rides on a single, front disc brake...instead of two...like the TT.

SR

[inditx]

More importantly what about the V twin thump!! The V7 has some but none in the V85 engine. I hope they didn't make a boring Honda out of the V7!

Hey now, I ride an Africa Twin as well and luckily it’s not boring. 
inditx

[inditx]

That was the biggest criticism I gave to the salesman when I test rode the V85TT—“I mean, it SOUNDS like a Guzzi, but it doesn’t FEEL like one :( “

I agree and I wanted to want one.
inditx

[bad Chad]

I wonder if it is really esentially a v9 frame.  If you go and read up on the v9, they apparently did the same thing.  From what I can see, it's the same beefed up rear drive, and the same strengthend head.   It makes sense, why would they not?

[Dirk_S]

I wonder if it is really esentially a v9 frame.  If you go and read up on the v9, they apparently did the same thing.  From what I can see, it's the same beefed up rear drive, and the same strengthend head.   It makes sense, why would they not?

When the V9 was made, one change they made to the small block frame was dropping the rear fender mounting bars parallel with the ground. The frame for the new V7 850 still has the angled extensions as the V7. Maybe we have yet another slightly modified small block frame? Lovely.

[SLDMRossi]

Moto Guzzi wouldn't make...and Certify/Homologate...another (detuned) V85 engine variant if they didn't have to. They'd just go with the TT version...

FYI:

V7 Special Wheelbase = 1445 mm 
V9 Roamer Wheelbase = 1465 mm

V7 Special Weight = 193 kg
V9 Roamer Weight = 204 kg

SR

[SLDMRossi]

P.S.

V85 TT Wheelbase = 1530 mm
V85 TT Weight = 229 - 240 kg

SR

[bad Chad]

Everything I have says the Roamer dry weight is 199kg & curb weight 210kg.   

[Kev m]

Everything I have says the Roamer dry weight is 199kg & curb weight 210kg.

There has been conflicting info on MG's website and certain press releases.

[voncrump]

I have been looking at pictures of the new V7 850.
When you look at the cylinder head cover you can see it is different from the V85TT.
Also the way the engine mounts to the frame is different.
I think the reason that the V7850 has 65 HP versus the 80 HP of the TT may be that the new V7 has a warmed up V9 Bobber/Roamer engine, not a V85TT engine and consequently doesn’t have the roller cam followers.
The roller followers are a significant update for these engines.
So using the V9;engine they couldn’t use a better camshaft profile and valve gear.
Just another cost cutting shortcut by Piaggio.
A rehashed frame first used in the 70s and a cheaper engine.
The same harsh suspension and still a single disc.
This bike was going to be my 70th birthday present but now I’m not so sure.

[Dimitri_Harkov]

You guys really believe the single front disc is an issue, because of a few KWs more?
The V7 III stops just fine with it's single disc.

But on the other hand, the V7 850 might me considerably heavier too...?
Bigger engine, rear wheel, shaft, Shocks...?

Cheers,
D.

[TalbotMatra]

I have been looking at pictures of the new V7 850.
When you look at the cylinder head cover you can see it is different from the V85TT.
Also the way the engine mounts to the frame is different.
I think the reason that the V7850 has 65 HP versus the 80 HP of the TT is that the new V7 has a warmed up V9 Bobber/Roamer engine, not a V85TT engine and consequently doesn’t have the roller cam followers.
The roller followers are a significant update for these engines.
So using the V9;engine they couldn’t use a better camshaft profile and valve gear.
Just another cost cutting shortcut by Piaggio.
A rehashed frame first used in the 70s and a cheaper engine.
The same harsh suspension and still a single disc.
This bike was going to be my 70th birthday present but now I’m not so sure.

No, Sir! It is a V85 engine. Probably the inner workings were made a bit simpler and not so high-quality materials were used to lower the price for the V7.
Viao
Lars

[twowheeladdict]

.
The same harsh suspension and still a single disc.
This bike was going to be my 70th birthday present but now I’m not so sure.

I found the suspension to be to soft, not harsh.  Suspension is easily upgraded to fit your wants. 

[Vagrant]

Might just as well give up on the V9 engine. It was just a stop-gap to plug a hole until the V85 could be designed. there is no doubt the V85 engine gets to the end of the assembly line at a lower cost than the old small blocks. Fewer parts, less machining, less drilled and tapped holes (read self-tapping screws), etc. The V7 version most likely will just be a fuel injection, computer, and possibly cheaper piston. For the V85 to have the power # they hit it took $$$. They won't spend it on a V7 version at these prices.

[fossil]

According to press releases in Germany and Switzerland the V9 also will get the new engine soon. That makes sense as producing only one basic engine is cheaper. And the transmission of the new V7 also seems to be derived from the V85TT.

[Kev m]

Taking them at their word the press release says it's based on the V85 motor though to sing extent we can get into circular logic since the V85 and V9 are both evolutions of the smallblock V7.

The frame is obviously closer to the V9 then V85 because that's the chassis is the V7 in the first place. The differences in mounting but common use of the engine block is why there is an unused hole in the middle of the V85 block where it would have an engine mount on a V7/9.

I think the bigger evidence of which is the closer relative comes from the peak hp/torque numbers and more importantly WHERE they occur. I think that suggests the V85 might be a closer relative mechanically, though the V7/9 is closer in terms of frame/chassis and I expect throttle body/ecu.

On the single disc, it's not a "must" have (remember the Jackal and Stone Cali's had a single disc when the Bassai/EV etc) had duals. It's a wish/want that the argument for which gets stronger with more weight and power.

Personally I prefer the feel and look and long life and complete lack of fade worry they duals offer and would prefer them on both of my current V7s. When I hop of the Stone or Dark and hop on the 696 the different in braking is tremendous.

[voncrump]

No, Sir! It is a V85 engine. Probably the inner workings were made a bit simpler and not so high-quality materials were used to lower the price for the V7.
Viao
Lars

I’m very happy to have my theory proved wrong.
Has anyone seen a parts book for the new bikes?
I have a V711 and have just completed a good 5 day trip with it.
They are great bikes and I hoped the update would be a bit more sophisticated.
I guess that an 80hp V7 with a bit more upmarket frame and running gear will come at some stage.
Cheers, voncrump.

[voncrump]

I have just been looking at some images of the new V7.
It seems to have the same cases as the TT.
This would mean it has roller followers.
So it just might be back on my birthday list.
Cheers voncrump

[kingoffleece]

First of all, Hamlin has THE answer for front braking.  he has a mod that will outperform any OEM two disk system.  And it's not that dear.  No extra unsprung weight either.  Are you on the track-with a V7-for anything other than fun or training?

And if you're waiting for a "perfect" bike you'll wait forever.  If it's not want you want, make it that way.  I mean, look at the V7.  It'll lose every bench race worldwide, but lots of folks ride them and love them.  Come on, man.

[reidy]

I have little confidence in the stated power figures. This is because power is listed as horsepower and torque is listed in newton meters. https://www.motoguzzi.com/us_EN/new-moto-guzzi-v7/

It should be horsepower, foot pounds or kilowatts, newton meters. I think they have selected these numbers as HP is bigger than KW when converted and newton meter is bigger than foot pounds. I have also noticed that some of the online articles have horsepower, foot pounds but did not convert the number. If the person stating power figures does not understand that there are two different measuring systems I have low confidence in the data.

I would like to see the two bikes on the same dyno. It would be interesting to see if the V7 has higher torque numbers than the V85 lower down in the rev range. If it does it would make it a better all-round road bike.

Steve     

[Kev m]

I have little confidence in the stated power figures. This is because power is listed as horsepower and torque is listed in newton meters. https://www.motoguzzi.com/us_EN/new-moto-guzzi-v7/

It should be horsepower, foot pounds or kilowatts, newton meters. I think they have selected these numbers as HP is bigger than KW when converted and newton meter is bigger than foot pounds. I have also noticed that some of the online articles have horsepower, foot pounds but did not convert the number. If the person stating power figures does not understand that there are two different measuring systems I have low confidence in the data.

I really think you're overthinking it.

The quote the correct (by spec) previous model's crankshaft hp rating and draw a comparison to the new one.

Why chose hp? Who knows, marketing? Woooing a particular audience. Meh.

New Moto Guzzi engine
It has 25% more maximum power, going from the previous 52 hp at 6200 rpm to the current 65 hp at 6800 rpm. Maximum torque has also increased significantly, going from 60 Nm at 4250 rpm to the outstanding value of 73 Nm at 5000 rpm, with more than 80% of the torque already available at 3000 rpm.

[twowheeladdict]

I have little confidence in the stated power figures. This is because power is listed as horsepower and torque is listed in newton meters. https://www.motoguzzi.com/us_EN/new-moto-guzzi-v7/

It should be horsepower, foot pounds or kilowatts, newton meters. I think they have selected these numbers as HP is bigger than KW when converted and newton meter is bigger than foot pounds. I have also noticed that some of the online articles have horsepower, foot pounds but did not convert the number. If the person stating power figures does not understand that there are two different measuring systems I have low confidence in the data.

I would like to see the two bikes on the same dyno. It would be interesting to see if the V7 has higher torque numbers than the V85 lower down in the rev range. If it does it would make it a better all-round road bike.

Steve   

Its just a simple thing called marketing because most consumers are consumed with power figures and most consumers have short attention spans and when they see the numbers they don't pay attention to anything else.

How a bike feels is so much more important than the numbers unless you need the numbers to compare how long yours is with other guys.  Err, I mean how powerful yours is. 

Test rides sell bikes.