European vs. Japanese vehicle reliability

[willowstreetguzziguy]

Simple question... What’s the reason Japanese cars and motorcycles seem to be more reliable than their European counterparts?

Most agree that European built vehicles have more “character” than those from Japan or Korea. And the German cars give you a “better feel of the road.” Both Mercedes and BMW say they are “the best engineered cars in the world.” But as they get old, a lot of things break on them.

Unless you are wealthy, you wouldn’t want to be making BOTH car payments and repair bills at the same time on a used European vehicle. That’s the reason they offer extended warranties on used vehicles outside the warranty period. Most likely, a similarly priced new  Toyota or Lexus will cost less to maintain than a BMW, Mercedes, Porsche, or Audi through the years. I think this holds true for European vs Japanese motorcycles. If the European vehicles have superior engineering, why do they not hold up over time.

[SIR REAL ED]

Simple question... What’s the reason Japanese cars and motorcycles seem to be more reliable than their European counterparts?

Most agree that European built vehicles have more “character” than those from Japan or Korea. And the German cars give you a “better feel of the road.” Both Mercedes and BMW say they are “the best engineered cars in the world.” But as they get old, a lot of things break on them.

Unless you are wealthy, you wouldn’t want to be making BOTH car payments and repair bills at the same time on a used European vehicle. That’s the reason they offer extended warranties on used vehicles outside the warranty period. Most likely, a similarly priced new  Toyota or Lexus will cost less to maintain than a BMW, Mercedes, Porsche, or Audi through the years. I think this holds true for European vs Japanese motorcycles. If the European vehicles have superior engineering, why do they not hold up over time.

The Japanese have much more extensive Quality Control during the manufacturing process than most.  When the American auto makers adopted Demming's methods, the quality of cars went up dramatically.

I suspect some of the European problem is related to local union power.

[Perazzimx14]

The answer is two way different cultures.

[SIR REAL ED]

The answer is two way different cultures.

Very true. 

In the early 80's I co-oped at a GM plant.  Total shock to a kid raised in a rural area with the values of hard work, personal responsibility, making oneself useful, trying to improve any situation one and access to, and taking pride in the quality of one's work.

Even though I was in my mid 20's at the time, it was liked being transported to another planet.

[Dirk_S]

The answer is two way different cultures.

Bingo. The extent of Japanese honor and pride is amazing. From what I’ve read, their work-life ratio is significantly more stressful than Western nations. Add in the fact that they had to essentially restart their economy following WWII, and it only engrained the culture further. Germany had to as well, of course, but location and resources obviously lead to a different economy and way of national direction. It would be great if we had a person of Japanese decent on this forum comment with their perspective, but regardless, this is why I’ll trust Japanese for reliability over any other.

[Nick]

Demming's methods

Bingo 

[jpv7]

The Japanese have much more extensive Quality Control during the manufacturing process than most.  When the American auto makers adopted Demming's methods, the quality of cars went up dramatically.

I suspect some of the European problem is related to local union power.

While I agree that Japanese QA is better, I've seen a decline based on my last 2 Toyota trucks.  The older, better one ('98 4 Runner) was Japanese built, and had no real issues. 

The 2010, US built, truck has had a recall for rusted rear leaf springs.  The ac compressor has already failed, and there was another service campaign for driveshaft which i didn't need (probably because i grease mine).  The powertrain is solid though.

I figure it was because they are sourcing parts locally in the US.  But, in any case, their QA should apply and is obviously sliding.

Then yesterday i hear about the Honda recalls for rusted driveshafts...reall y?

This will likely not cause me to deviate from owning Japanese, but it has me wondering for sure.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

I've only ever owned a few Japanese vehicles and those were a long time ago. All of the European vehicles I've owned have been very reliable.

[AJ Huff]

Great answers for 1975. Doesn't explain 2015 models though.

-AJ

[steven c]

 Not always, the 2009 Kawasaki KLX250 I bought last fall with 5K on it ate a valve this July. It was supposed to be my no fuss bike. My 2012 Subaru Forester is on it's 2nd replacement short block (which still use's oil a quart in 1500 miles) the mid differential went at 92K, the right drive shaft went at 80K and my 2009 Tacoma has a leaking axle seal (known problem) and the brakes suck.But then their is my niece who has a Toyota Land Cruiser with 300K on it and it's trouble free. My wife's 97 Saab 900 we had for years was the most reliable car I have ever owned. Having said this my mechanic friends tell me to stay away from VW's.

[AJ Huff]

My dad had to have the frame replaced on his Toyota Tacoma about 5 years ago. They took the body off, swapped everything onto a new frame, and put the body back on. Insane.

-AJ

[JJ]

Having worked for several Japanese companies and several European companies, (Semiconductor industry), in my career, I would say both of these statements are true:   







The bottom-line is that we all put up with the quirkiness, idiosyncrasies, and nuances of Guzzi's and other European motorcycles for many reasons, but the main one is, compared to the Japanese motorcycles, they have "character and soul"....that's my experience and observation anyway....

A moto-journalist once wrote that Japanese cars / motorcycles are so perfect...and so reliable...they tend to become..."Boring..."

[bad Chad]

James May's Cars of the People, is an excellent six episode series dealing with a lot of what we are talking about here.

It's available on Prime, and can also be had on DVD.  Not whacky fun like when he's with his buddies, but witty funny, and extremely informative.

[jpv7]

My dad had to have the frame replaced on his Toyota Tacoma about 5 years ago. They took the body off, swapped everything onto a new frame, and put the body back on. Insane.

-AJ

Yes - known issue.  They also bought back a bunch of them at really good prices.  Still crazy.

[Vagrant]

Engineers can design all sorts of new-fangled fancy gizmos. But, they are useless if the factory can't and won't buy the quality of parts specked by them. And or the company owners purposely build it to fail.
an example of this would be design calling for an 8 ball bearing that should last 5000 hours but the buyers settle for a 7 ball designed for 2000 hours. Then the assembly line guys just hammer it into the case when the plans called for a heated case and a frozen bearing.

[Rough Edge racing]

  I know a few people with Mercedes, BMW and Audi that needed too many expensive repairs just after the warranty expired.  I owned a 6 year old Subaru that constantly needed repairs. Owned a few well used Mazda GLC 's , Fiesta and  Rabbit years ago that were reliable...Bought a 2002 Honda CRV 5 speed 2 years ago that does the job...A good friend buys only Toyotas, he says they are bullet proof. Then  a little later he tells me about repeated  trips to the dealer for check engine light problems.....You know, some will have one repair in 6 years and claim the vehicle is shit, and others will tolerate more repairs  because they like the way it performs..

[Sasquatch Jim]

 But you just don't hear complaints about Yugos do you.

[DaveJT]

The Japanese have much more extensive Quality Control during the manufacturing process than most.  When the American auto makers adopted Demming's methods, the quality of cars went up dramatically.

I suspect some of the European problem is related to local union power.

Tolerances.  Also you can build to the 10/10ths for performance at a price point...or like a Toyota 4 cyl pickup you can build bulletproof

[Gliderjohn]

From Jim:

But you just don't hear complaints about Yugos do you.

Or Vegas or Pintos either.
GliderJohn

[moto-uno]

  In Canada years ago we imported Lada's , now there was a certifiable piece of crap if ever there was one . You can't set the quality bar any lower than Russia .
And they still find people to fly in their aircraft ?  Peter

[Rough Edge racing]

Tolerances.  Also you can build to the 10/10ths for performance at a price point...or like a Toyota 4 cyl pickup you can build bulletproof

What is bullet proof in Texas may not be so in the north with road deicing chemicals...But in the last 12  years or so the Japanese trucks seem much better resisting rust And there's good and bad rust,  rusted frames or unit bodys, suspension parts and door pillars are not good...
   I believe the Japanese  auto manufacturers need less quality control as the vehicle is being built because of the built in quality as mentioned the quote above...
   Can anyone say for sure German cars have more hands on by workers than Japanese vehicles?
 

[usedtobefast]

I think it has to do with a company's mindset, what they want to be, what they want to be known for.  Then they hire people they think will fit in with that.

Like KTM "Ready to Race" ... don't think that would translate to 50,000 miles with zero issues.  So they go after light weight, zippy power, strong engines, etc.  And then hire team members that know how to design/build/test zippy/light/strong.  I'm sure they don't want them to blow up in 6 months, but I bet they've never had a discussion on making a water pump last 15 years without any issues/service. 

It would be interesting to have transcripts of conversations ... Suzuki V-Strom 1000 team vs. KTM 1290 Adventure team ... I bet the 1290 discussions were on lighter weight, more power, rider modes and ways to control/manage the massive power ... and I bet the V-Strom conversations would mention maintenance intervals, ease of service, longevity, duration, long service life, etc.

And the Moto Guzzi team?  "Hey, let's take the V85TT engine, stick it in the V7 frame, use the V7 ECU (cause we still have a bunch), make the shocks 20mm longer, and paint them in matte finish or dull blue!"  "Yes!  It will be like a V7 850 then!"  "I bet we will sell like a thousand of them!"   

[twowheeladdict]

Having worked for several Japanese companies and several European companies, (Semiconductor industry), in my career, I would say both of these statements are true:   







The bottom-line is that we all put up with the quirkiness, idiosyncrasies, and nuances of Guzzi's and other European motorcycles for many reasons, but the main one is, compared to the Japanese motorcycles, they have "character and soul"....that's my experience and observation anyway....

A moto-journalist once wrote that Japanese cars / motorcycles are so perfect...and so reliable...they tend to become..."Boring..."

If the Japanese made an air cooled 750cc twin with standard sitting position and shaft drive I would probably still be on all Japanese motorcycles. 

I buy what I want, and for the past few years that has been air cooled bikes.  I just like the way they look so much better than a dang radiator front and center.  The Japanese don't make anything to compete with the Himalayan either.  But I do have the Japanese Van Van 200. 

Air cooled japanese touring bikes are pretty much non existent, and/or not competitive, thus the Road Glide.   

My "Japanese" Truck is 100 percent built in the United States with parts from wherever.  My "American" Truck was built in Canada with parts sourced worldwide. 

In 2004 I went and looked at small/midsize SUVs from every manufacturer and couldn't believe how spartan the Japanese vehicles were.  I don't care how reliable something is if I am not going to enjoy 200,000 miles in it.  I ended up with a Buick. 

[Testarossa]

All of the above, but this is important:

I think it has to do with a company's mindset, what they want to be, what they want to be known for.

BMW and Mercedes appear to engineer cars for 150kph on the autobahn with a business executive behind the wheel. The guy lives near a dealer or specialist repair shop and can afford to trade the car in after 100,000 km. Handling in snow and sand, and reliability in extreme climates, is seconday.

Many Japanese vehicles are engineered for reliability anywhere in the world, with the understanding that a lap around the Nurburgring is not part of the holiday plan. Not all Japanese cars, of course, but many. The small pickups seem immortal, but we can't buy them in North America anymore.

I recall when the Peugeot 504 had a reputation for bombproof reliability and simple repairs. People crossed the Sahara in them. If you skied in the Alps, the taxis were turbo-diesel Peugeots. After the company began making front-wheel-drive Citroen clones, reliability cratered. Today quality is improving thanks to a joint venture with Toyota and a new Czech factory.

Seems to me that quality and reliability are choices made by a company. If other factors -- price, marketability, performance -- take precedence over million-mile reliability, then that's what the company will build.

[DaveJT]

If you google cars that can hit 200,000 or 300,000 miles.. it is invariably full size American made trucks or suv, and Honda cars, and Toyota cars and suvs. Though I seem to remember the Volvo p1800 might have been the first to a million miles.. and I think I saw a wheeler dealers where they had a mid to late 80s Mercedes Benz, and they were like this is the high watermark for engineering and reliability. 

[huub]

funny how your point of view and dealer network can define your answer, over here (netherlands)nobody would even consider  a  american car , because of reliability issues
dealer network , and dealer knowledge makes all the difference
on the other hand any small city car is supposed to do 200.000 miles with basic maintenance, hell , even my 1985 citroen 2cv managed that.
( powered by a 600CC  aircooled twin)
I work for a japanese customer, and to be honest, i am not impressed by their quality standards
they do brilliant procedures , but they struggle to react on even minor external changes.
if reality hitds them they completely  loose the plot.
my experience with japanese cars has been less that favorable, (honda accord, toyota starlet )but your luck may vary

[mechanicsavant]

Just my two cents . Another side to this issue is , if ya build it to good you’ll put yourself out of business ! As did Volvo with its 122 series, aside from replacement front fenders a pretty bulletproof car . Also PitneyBowes did the same thing with its older postage meters . They were paying twice the purchase price to get ya out of the old one to put you into an electronic one w/service contract ! I recently was talking to an appliance technician friend who just came back from an Electrolux school ,they make many appliances sold under different names . According to him their biggest competitor was they’re old machines , solution , make the compressors only last 5 Yrs. remember when a refrigerator lasted “forever” . I worked on the fringes of the food service business for a bit , ask any restaurant owner about it . My current neighbor is a service technician for “Pannera “ Reastaurant . Poor guy is out @ all hours . I’m. Done .

[willowstreetguzziguy]

So what vehicle built in 2020 would last 300,000 miles?

[LowRyter]

My dad had to have the frame replaced on his Toyota Tacoma about 5 years ago. They took the body off, swapped everything onto a new frame, and put the body back on. Insane.

-AJ

That's nothing, I saw a shop do the same thing with a $60k+ full boat luxury Suburban (about 15 years ago).  I didn't believe my eyes and asked about it and was told that was exactly what they were doing.   

[LowRyter]

There several factors, regarding "quality". 

It seems like this thread has concentrated on "workmanship" (i.e., labor) which largely a function of management.  There is also "design" which is also a function of management.  And finally there is "procurement" (of components and other aspects of design and production) which is also a function of management.  =   Cost, Schedule, Performance.