Source for NEW VHB carbs...?

[radguzzi]

The VHB 30 carbs on the '76 V1000 Convert are just plain worn out I fear, the fuel consumption is just ridiculous, it's bad.  To the point where I want to buy new replacements.  I am not finding any... :( 

I have gone through all the usual procedures, correct jetting etc. to no avail. 

Anyone here know of a source that I do not know of OR can I install PHF Dellorto 30s on that engine successfully and with simple cable changes...? 

Thanks,
rad__

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

If anyone would have new/NOS, it would probably be Harper's or Paul Szostak. Maybe a good used pair?

There are any number of other carburetors one can install, each has it own set of issues to overcome. Finding manifolds that work is the main problem, the Delrin manifolds put the carb at an shallower angle than the original manifolds (or the uncommon rubber elbows used around '81). It may be necessary to cut the sidecovers to make clearance for air filters.

George Dockeray (hope I spelled his name correctly) modified VHB manifolds to use the later rubber couple and PHFs. Very nicely done and looked nearly stock.





 

[moto]

The advice Charlie just gave is good.

Another possibility is this VHB to PHBH 30 replacement kit from Stein-Dinse:

https://www.stein-dinse.biz/product_info.php?products_id=1027


It has been offered by them for many years.

Moto

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

The advice Charlie just gave is good.

Another possibility is this VHB to PHBH 30 replacement kit from Stein-Dinse:

https://www.stein-dinse.biz/product_info.php?products_id=1027


It has been offered by them for many years.

Moto

Original manifolds would need to be modified ("Just little modifications on sockets / draws essential."), similar to what George did.

[lucian]

Could it be be the seals on the bottom of the choke plungers?  Overly rich would suggest wrong needles or main jets.  I flipped the rubber pads on the bottom of my choke plungers LMIII and cured the same overly rich problem, how are the plugs looking?

[dblue]

If it is a too rich issue , needle and needle jet are probably worn. I have seen that a few times'

[moto]

Original manifolds would need to be modified ("Just little modifications on sockets / draws essential."), similar to what George did.

That's right. One drawback of the kit is the PHBH 30 carburetors. They are a bottom of the line version that has no accelerator pumps of either kind, as I recall. It would be nice to hear from someone who has experience having installed this item. The kit is quite cheap, I think.

[moto]

Could it be be the seals on the bottom of the choke plungers?  Overly rich would suggest wrong needles or main jets.  I flipped the rubber pads on the bottom of my choke plungers LMIII and cured the same overly rich problem, how are the plugs looking?

Good idea. I'm having some richness problem at idle myself. I just ordered two new plungers for $6 each, plus $3.46 shipping, from scramblercycle.com, in northern Wisconsin. A good source for many Guzzi and Dellorto parts.

Moto

[mtiberio]

You can always get a set of Amal manifolds that came on '74 Eldorados for a while. Once you have those, you could install some brand new (and improved) Amals (930's I believe) or any of the chinese "amal" replacements. I have used the latter for years, even went 115 Land Speed Racing on my Automatic with them.

[LesP]

Anyone here know of a source that I do not know of OR can I install PHF Dellorto 30s on that engine successfully and with simple cable changes...?

Random.

The problem might be elsewhere as suggested as far as richness.

The VHB's are rebuildable down to slides so as long as the body is not worn out, it is simply a matter of time and money.
I fully rebuilt the 29VHB's I have, done to the last component that warranted replacing.

I thought one of the early 80's engines came with 30 PHF's which would make it a bolt on if available.

Those 30 mm carburetors are cheap for a reason and being cast in Italy they might not be, including the cheesy white floats.

I put (1980's) 32 mm PHF's on the Eldorado (which is not a V1000 layout hough) but are similar to the 30's (same casting I believe)
I had a couple of sets so initial cost was low but they still cost a bundle to go through.

Googling showed it had been done before but most looked to have the carburetors on an angle due to the float bowls hitting the gearbox casing.

Larger spigot OD 30 mm VHB manifolds with machined spigots to suit the nylon sleeves in the PHF's.



Tapered gaskets to swing the manifolds outward slightly so the carburetors ae vertical.



Threaded adapters to suit the stock rubber air box boot.



Almost like stock.



It would be easier with the twin cable throttle as cables are available off the shelf. (Unlike to suit the 1 into 2 cable Super Pratic)

I did have to get custom cables and machined a rotary drum splitter.

[radguzzi]

The plugs are sooty black.  I did not do a plug chop, just pulled them out after putting the Vert up on a a stand at the end of a long ride.

When I recommissioned the Guzzi I "Went through" the carbs in that I put all the bits in the ultrasonic cleaner and inspected the parts and reinstalled them; jets etc... 

So I wonder if I should at least just go through and go with new jets, needles, needle jets as @dblue suggests, atomizers etc. before I jump into the deep end and replace with the PHBs. 

======

@lucian,
New individual choke lever assemblies so I would discount that for now.


=======

@mtiberio,
I do have a new set of Amal Premier 930s for the '78 Triumph T140V, good idea there.  Even though I will not be doing any LSR attempts.

=======

@LesP,

Nice work as usual sir... 

More later.

Thanks all.
Rob

[lazlokovacs]

eurocarb in the uk

https://www.dellorto.co.uk/shop/dellorto-motorcycle-carburettors-parts/complete-carburettors-dellorto-motorcycle-carburettors-parts/phbe-30-to-38mm/r6808-dellorto-phbe-30hs/

very good people


I'm not sure that they ship to the USA, but if you want me to order them over here and ship them on to you I'd be more than happy to help

[radguzzi]

Thanks lazlokovacs on the UK Carb outlet...  I May have to contact you.


===============



So I opened the carbs to inspect and find out what the issue Might be...

I had also failed to mention that I am using K&N air filters With the runners ( stacks) on the carbs. 

Wondering also If the issue could be float height related..? I have not yet measured for that setting. 

Could that be a big factor for the poor fuel consumption..? 

I have several questions about what I found.  

The Main (125) and Idle (50) Jets, 
Needle (V9)  Not available new
Choke (80), 
Idle Mixture Screw Taper & Shaft Length are up to spec with Guzziology.  
The Slide is way out of whack, this is a 40 and Guzziology calls for a 60...? Not available new
Needle Clip in the middle position.

1/  The V9 Needle and #60 Slide seem to be No Longer Available...

2/  Guzziology talks about Pumps.  This one has no ball in the body, it has the little strainer type thingy and a spring. 

3/  How does one know which needle valve seat is installed...?  Or I guess, more importantly, how is the seat changed...?

4/  Oh, the slide to wall ID is rather significant me thinks but open to verification.  The clearance is ~ 0.024" - 0.025" on both the side to side and fore and aft measurement. 
Does that mean that the bores are actually worn beyond life lifespan...

Uhhhg, I am so confused now...  In that several components are not available I am not sure just which way to go. 

Thanks for putting up with this mess. 
Rob 

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Thanks lazlokovacs on the UK Carb outlet...  I May have to contact you.
Dellorto UK/Eurocarb are more than happy to sell to US customers, I've bought a fair bit of stuff from them.

===============



So I opened the carbs to inspect and find out what the issue Might be...

I had also failed to mention that I am using K&N air filters With the runners ( stacks) on the carbs. 

Wondering also If the issue could be float height related..? I have not yet measured for that setting. 

Could that be a big factor for the poor fuel consumption..?

I have several questions about what I found. 

The Main (125) and Idle (50) Jets,
Needle (V9)  Not available new
Choke (80),
Idle Mixture Screw Taper & Shaft Length are up to spec with Guzziology. 
The Slide is way out of whack, this is a 40 and Guzziology calls for a 60...? Not available new
Needle Clip in the middle position.

1/  The V9 Needle and #60 Slide seem to be No Longer Available...
A V5 needle is virtually identical. US Converts came with a 40 slide not 60 (at least every one I've owned and worked on has had a 40.

2/  Guzziology talks about Pumps.  This one has no ball in the body, it has the little strainer type thingy and a spring.
No ball inside the little salt shaker looking "plunger"? Could just be stuck. MG Cycle sells the ball.

3/  How does one know which needle valve seat is installed...?  Or I guess, more importantly, how is the seat changed...?
On all but the last of the VHBs (and smaller ones) the seat is fixed and can not be changed. Use a Q-Tip coated with toothpaste or fine valve lapping compound, chucked up into a drill, to polish the seat.

4/  Oh, the slide to wall ID is rather significant me thinks but open to verification.  The clearance is ~ 0.024" - 0.025" on both the side to side and fore and aft measurement.
Does that mean that the bores are actually worn beyond life lifespan...
Never measured that.

Uhhhg, I am so confused now...  In that several components are not available I am not sure just which way to go.

Thanks for putting up with this mess.
Rob

[yackee]

That's right. One drawback of the kit is the carburetors. They are a bottom of the line version that has no accelerator pumps of either kind, as I recall. It would be nice to hear from someone who has experience having installed this item. The kit is quite cheap, I think.

I replaced my original VHBs with the S-D kit for my 76 t3 about 8 years ago  I was very familiar with the PHB carbs from my vespa, they are very simple, like the VHBs, but replacement parts/kits/jets are widely available.

The kit was pretty much plug and play; jetting was very close to spot-on, I didn't have to modify the existing manifolds. The only pain in the keister was the cables; my source for cables is MG Cycle, but they don't carry any cables that work out of the box with the PHB carbs. The problem was that there was "too much" outer cable sheathing to allow me to attach the nipple to the round slide through the carb top; the inner wasn't long enough. So I had to very very carefully use a Dremel cutting wheel to cut off about an inch or so of outer, harder than you might imagine!

I spoke to the MG Cycle guys, and they said that the cable issue is the main reason why they don't stock/carry this kit. They said they had asked S-D what the solution was to the cable issue, and S-D had no solution.

That said, I have run this set-up now for about 10,000 miles and the bike runs great, and the costs was way less than you would pay for a pair of PHMs.

[LesP]

BSA Nut probably has new VHB slides in 40 and 60 along with V9 needles (if a must have)

Cables for PHF's could be as easy as those fit to beveldrive Ducati's which came with both 30 mm and 32 mm PHF's stock, the catch being, if you are using a twin pull TOMMASELLI throttle . (Two front cylinder cables might work on a Moto Guzzi length wise)

The 900SD had PHF 32's stock (The ones on my Eldorado were the originals off my 900SD Darmah bought in 1983)
That era spigot 32 mm PHF is no longer made so they fetch a premium.
That model has a 1 into 2 cable throttle, maybe the front cylinder cable could work with the Moto Guzzi splitter and its top cable but who knows. 

Either way, fully rebuilding VHB's or a custom PHF fitment is going to cost money, time or a combination of both.
Most old needle carburetors will need the needle and needle jet replaced due to wear at some stage.

[Rich A]

Moto Guzzino has V9 (and some other needles). $15 ea: https://guzzino.stores.yahoo.net/vhbne27.html

Crap, I just bought a couple needle valve seats and was going to ask how they are removed and installed. Sure don't want to damage the housing.

Rich A

[moto]

I replaced my original VHBs with the S-D kit for my 76 t3 about 8 years ago  ...

That said, I have run this set-up now for about 10,000 miles and the bike runs great, and the costs was way less than you would pay for a pair of PHMs.

Thanks for that great report. Making or modifying cables modifying cables is not a big problem. I'll keep this PHBH 30 kit in mind now.

Moto

[jacksonracingcomau]

I can’t see your vhb’s being worn out
But fitting phbh 30’s  is a doddle
On my v700, I used.same manifolds as yours, machined to suit rubber sleeve with a corresponding groove for ridge to sit in. Only things I did to fit was replace studs/ nuts with mushroom head m8’s for clearance and obviously make cables.
Very slight changes to std Lario carbs, flawless starting / running easy  250mile range from the small v700 tank
Only thing I will change is to fit equal length manifolds one day. I’ll use two “D” , the longer of two but anyone chasing more top end might be better off with modified orig v700 ones (equal length and short)

[jwinwi]

Rob,
Have you looked closely at the needle jets? Mine were hogged out by the needles and result was RICH mixture and poor mileage. IIRC, needles were not worn down but I may have replaced them anyway. Pretty sure I replaced everything else in there so the only thing left was needle jets. When compared to new ones, the difference was obvious to the naked eye. 

[radguzzi]

Sorry, we had unexpected house guests and I am just now getting back to this. 

1/  The V9 Needle and #60 Slide seem to be No Longer Available...
A V5 needle is virtually identical. US Converts came with a 40 slide not 60 (at least every one I've owned and worked on has had a 40.

Good to know on the V5 needle.  Identical...?  So there should not be an issue using the V5...?

2/  Guzziology talks about Pumps.  This one has no ball in the body, it has the little strainer type thingy and a spring.
No ball inside the little salt shaker looking "plunger"? Could just be stuck. MG Cycle sells the ball.

To be clear here, this one does not have the ball, just the little salt shaker strainer...is it supposed to have one...?

So I went out to the garage to check on the ball.. I did hear the ball when shaking the salt shaker. When blowing on the canister air will blow through it and when sucking, it stops air flow indicating that the ball is in there.


3/  How does one know which needle valve seat is installed...?  Or I guess, more importantly, how is the seat changed...?
On all but the last of the VHBs (and smaller ones) the seat is fixed and can not be changed. Use a Q-Tip coated with toothpaste or fine valve lapping compound, chucked up into a drill, to polish the seat.

Love this idea.  Will do just that.

4/  Oh, the slide to wall ID is rather significant me thinks but open to verification.  The clearance is ~ 0.024" - 0.025" on both the side to side and fore and aft measurement.
Does that mean that the bores are actually worn beyond life lifespan...
Never measured that.

Thanks for all this Charlie.  I appreciate the input.

Rob,
Have you looked closely at the needle jets? Mine were hogged out by the needles and result was RICH mixture and poor mileage. IIRC, needles were not worn down but I may have replaced them anyway. Pretty sure I replaced everything else in there so the only thing left was needle jets. When compared to new ones, the difference was obvious to the naked eye. 

I have not looked closely to see if they are hogged out but I will, well. I do not know whether those holes are worn or not to be honest. The V9 needles do not appear to be scared to me but I will replace them anyway.

I am going to just throw a bunch of new parts at the carbs, hoping something sticks... lol    My luck, the needle jet body will not be available.

Thank you,
Rob

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Sorry, we had unexpected house guests and I am just now getting back to this. 



I have not looked closely to see if they are hogged out but I will, well. I do not know whether those holes are worn or not to be honest. The V9 needles do not appear to be scared to me but I will replace them anyway.

I am going to just throw a bunch of new parts at the carbs, hoping something sticks... lol    My luck, the needle jet body will not be available.

Thank you,
Rob

The difference between the V5 and V9 is so small, one would be very hard pressed to tell them apart in appearance and/or in operation.
https://www.thisoldtractor.com/dellorto_slide_needle_specifications_for__vhb_motorcycle_carburetors_-v_slides-.html

By "needle jet body" do you mean the (265) atomizer? Currently out of stock at MG Cycle:
https://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=2098
Maybe in stock at Harper's or Herdan Corp.?
https://www.harpermoto.com/atomizer-265-for-vhb-13935500.html
https://herdan.com/
In stock at Eurocarb/Dellorto UK:
https://www.dellorto.co.uk/shop/dellorto-motorcycle-carburettors-parts/carburettor-parts/jets-needles-floats-calibrated-parts/vhb-atomiser-vhbt-27-30mm-cscd/

[moto]

I believe that's a steel needle rattling around in a brass jet, so the jet is bound to be the component that suffers. Unless you can actually see something wrong with the needle I would not replace it.

In fact that jet seems to be one of the few components that can really wear in a VHB carburetor. The large flat face of the slide doesn't wear like a round slide does, as Dave Richardson observed. There are no pivots to wear, unlike carbs that have rotating throttle valves. All the other jets just hang around until they get plugged up with gas deposits, but they don't really wear, I think.

Instead of replacing all the jets, the 265 atomizer should be the first choice. Or so it seems to me.

[Rich A]

Greg Bender put together a description of how to re-assemble VHBs: https://www.thisoldtractor.com/moto_guzzi_loopframe_carburetor_rebuild_-__vhb.html

It shows all the pieces/parts very clearly.

Rich A

[moto]

Greg also shows this exploded diagram labeling the parts:

[Rich A]

How do you remove the atomizer (needle jet) (part #12). Do you need a special tool or can you just use a drift?

Rich A

[jwinwi]

How do you remove the atomizer (needle jet) (part #12). Do you need a special tool or can you just use a drift?

Rich A

No special tool needed. The NJ sticks up above the body just enough so that a brass punch can be used to dislodge it.

[radguzzi]

Ahh, now we are getting somewhere.  I had Not previously removed the atomizer (doh, smacks forehead) 

@RichA and jwinwi,
 
I was going to ask the very same question regarding how to remove the #265 Atomizer.

So, I pulled the atomizers out and they do not appear to be worn but what do I know...?

Can someone here tell me the ID of a known, good atomizer #265...?  The two that I removed measure ~ 0.118"-ish

Should I replace them...? 

Certainly the V9 or V5 Needles should be renewed along with the float needles and polish the seat as per Charlie's recommendation and a complete gasket kit (Which I did do previously when I "Thought" I was "Going through" the carbs.   

This has been a great carb lesson.  Now I need to find the parts in the US.

As a side note, I like how Greg mentions Charlie Mullendore in the rebuild article regarding setting the atomizer back into place.   

Thanks much all.
Rob

[jwinwi]

265 should be 2.65 mm, right?  .118" is almost 3 mm. Somebody check my math - I was an English major. 

[radguzzi]

265 should be 2.65 mm, right?  .118" is almost 3 mm. Somebody check my math - I was an English major. 

Ahh, I did not realize that the "265" was indication of the ID. 
I'm a little slow and I was not even an English major.  :)

So yes, the bore measures ~ 0.301mm.   A bit too much huh...?

Thanks,
Rob