850 T3 Cali stuck in 5th gear

[Adv_hoon]

I am going through a number of issues on my recently acquired 850 T3 Cali. But recently I had the most annoying gremlin appear.

On a ride the bike suddenly stuck in 5th gear without ability to shift down. Due to the nice torque of the engine and some abuse of the clutch I got the bike all the way home and left it there over a week ago.

I will go and work on it towards the end of this week and I look for potential ideas as to what has happened?

A little context is that I had adjusted the ignition and made both cylinders fire at the correct time. This made the bike really pull and on some of the test rides I noticed that this actually made the clutch slip in top gear. I had adjusted the clutch to have it engage closer to the handlebar and while doing this I noticed a black box with wires coming out of it at the end of the clutch cable at the gearbox. I do not know what this is? But I have ordered a new clutch cable to ensure that the slipping is not just the cable not disengaging.

But after all this I rode a good long ride and after 30 minutes or so it just stuck in 5th? I cannot really see how it could be related but perhaps?

So ideas on what to try will be highly appreciated. I hope I can somehow fix it without pulling the transmission apart.

[Scout63]

Interesting.  The black box could be an electronic ignition box, regulator/rectifier or starter relay, but I don’t think related to the clutch.  Check the clutch cable adjuster on the top right rear of the gearbox to make sure that the adjuster nuts haven’t slipped off. Also check the eccentric adjuster on the left side of the rear cover of the gearbox.  You can loosen the locknut and turn the adjuster about a half turn either way to tune the lever throw.  It’s easier to hand shift with the bike not running and on the center stand while rocking the rear wheel by hand. Finally, check the clutch pushrod arm on the back of the gearbox to make sure that it is not bound and has not lost the return spring or adjuster pin and lock nut.

[Wayne Orwig]

I would check the linkage first. If the shift linkage is loose or bumping something that may be the problem.

[fotoguzzi]

Is the clutch lever still operating normally when you try to shift?
Pics of that black box?

[Adv_hoon]

Interesting.  The black box could be an electronic ignition box, regulator/rectifier or starter relay, but I don’t think related to the clutch.  Check the clutch cable adjuster on the top right rear of the gearbox to make sure that the adjuster nuts haven’t slipped off. Also check the eccentric adjuster on the left side of the rear cover of the gearbox.  You can loosen the locknut and turn the adjuster about a half turn either way to tune the lever throw.  It’s easier to hand shift with the bike not running and on the center stand while rocking the rear wheel by hand. Finally, check the clutch pushrod arm on the back of the gearbox to make sure that it is not bound and has not lost the return spring or adjuster pin and lock nut.

The clutch cable goes through this weird box with wires coming out of it. But the clutch works and I used it to get myself home after it stuck in 5th gear.

I would check the linkage first. If the shift linkage is loose or bumping something that may be the problem.

Is the clutch lever still operating normally when you try to shift?
Pics of that black box?

Yes the clutch works properly. I used it to drive 30-40km back with only 5th gear. I can take some pictures when I work on the bike again at the end of the week.
I did notice that it looks like there is some "looseness" in the linkage. Is there a guide on how to adjust the linkage properly, so I can try that?

[czakky82]

The box is likely the ignition safety. Do you need the clutch pulled in to start?

Linkage is very easy. Have a look at it I’m sure you’ll figure it out.

It may be a shift return spring broken….

[Adv_hoon]

The box is likely the ignition safety. Do you need the clutch pulled in to start?

Linkage is very easy. Have a look at it I’m sure you’ll figure it out.

It may be a shift return spring broken….

You are probably right. Then it just does not work or is not connected, because no, I can start it without the clutch pulled.

Okay, I will see if I can figure it out and either adjust or rule that out as the culprit.

Shift return spring sounds like a gearbox-out job?

[czakky82]

Shift return spring sounds like a gearbox-out job?

Sorry to say.
It might be possible in situ, but at that point you might as well pull it.

[huub]

check the linking , if that is OK, its the return spring.
a couple of euro  for a new spring, but quite a lot of work.
every guzzi i had ( 6 of them ) had that spring break at some point.
Even the nuovo falcone

somewhere in the eighties guzzi upgraded the spring ( one extra winding) so the current springs should be less prone to breaking

[Tom H]

The box on your clutch cable is a switch. When the bike was stock, it would allow you to start in gear if you pulled the clutch lever.

As Wayne mentioned. Could something be blocking the movement of the shift lever on the trans or the foot lever?

If the return spring is broken, the foot lever will "normally" not stay centered. You can feel the spring pressure with your hand if it's not broken. With a heel/toe shifter for instance, if you shift in to first, the lever will stay there. To get to second you have to push the lever back to center, then shift to second. Repeat the centering to get to the rest of the gears.

EDIT: With a broken spring, you may be able to go from first to second without centering the pedal. Then to get to third you "must" center the shift pedal. Fifth to fourth should also just shift, but fourth to third you would need to center.

Good luck,
Tom

[wymple]

Bear with me on this. My Cal 2 did exactly the same thing. I was expecting to find worn parts or a broken spring. Removal of the engine and trans, disassembly of the trans found the problem. There is a lever (for lack of a better term) that slides back & forth between two surfaces to go either up or down on the shift. It was going up, but not returning to center to reset for the next shift. The problem turned out to be, no kidding, a small spot of rust making it drag & hang up. It was polished & reassembled. It was not a large problem at all. As much work that was involved, we devised a solution, and it has been successfully done on another Cal 3 by a friend of mine. He drained the trans & flushed it as best he could. Then we filled it with 4 bottles of Evapo-Rust, which cost about 30 dollars. Ran the trans for a few seconds to get everything in there wet with it, then left it set for several days. This dissolved the rust spot and there is nothing in there to be damaged by Evapo-Rust. It was then drained, flushed several times with water (neutralizes Evapo-Rust.) We then ran some cheap oil thru the trans & changed that out to get everything back to normal. Worked perfectly. Seriously. I use this stuff to clean up all kinds of rust/corrosion problems restoring old guns & stuff. It leaves metal parts shiny & clean & I can soak them as long as I want without damage. As a side note, the trans has about 150K on my Cal 2, and showed zero signs of age inside. I've always put a few ounces of STP in there and another ounce or 2 in the rear drive.

[Adv_hoon]

The box on your clutch cable is a switch. When the bike was stock, it would allow you to start in gear if you pulled the clutch lever.

As Wayne mentioned. Could something be blocking the movement of the shift lever on the trans or the foot lever?

If the return spring is broken, the foot lever will "normally" not stay centered. You can feel the spring pressure with your hand if it's not broken. With a heel/toe shifter for instance, if you shift in to first, the lever will stay there. To get to second you have to push the lever back to center, then shift to second. Repeat the centering to get to the rest of the gears.

EDIT: With a broken spring, you may be able to go from first to second without centering the pedal. Then to get to third you "must" center the shift pedal. Fifth to fourth should also just shift, but fourth to third you would need to center.

Good luck,
Tom

I hope you are correct in your description of a broken spring, because then I do not think that is the problem. I have the heel/toe shifter and it stayed centered, it just felt like something "blocked" it from shifting down.

Bear with me on this. My Cal 2 did exactly the same thing. I was expecting to find worn parts or a broken spring. Removal of the engine and trans, disassembly of the trans found the problem. There is a lever (for lack of a better term) that slides back & forth between two surfaces to go either up or down on the shift. It was going up, but not returning to center to reset for the next shift. The problem turned out to be, no kidding, a small spot of rust making it drag & hang up. It was polished & reassembled. It was not a large problem at all. As much work that was involved, we devised a solution, and it has been successfully done on another Cal 3 by a friend of mine. He drained the trans & flushed it as best he could. Then we filled it with 4 bottles of Evapo-Rust, which cost about 30 dollars. Ran the trans for a few seconds to get everything in there wet with it, then left it set for several days. This dissolved the rust spot and there is nothing in there to be damaged by Evapo-Rust. It was then drained, flushed several times with water (neutralizes Evapo-Rust.) We then ran some cheap oil thru the trans & changed that out to get everything back to normal. Worked perfectly. Seriously. I use this stuff to clean up all kinds of rust/corrosion problems restoring old guns & stuff. It leaves metal parts shiny & clean & I can soak them as long as I want without damage. As a side note, the trans has about 150K on my Cal 2, and showed zero signs of age inside. I've always put a few ounces of STP in there and another ounce or 2 in the rear drive.

Hmm interesting. I actually read somewhere else about people adding some sort of additive to the transmission to lower the friction or something like that. So I actually thought about trying something of the like as a first cheap and "happy-go-lucky" attempt at fixing something that could be seized in the transmission. I would just be surprised if there was rust and it suddenly caused a problem. I could understand if it had been stationary for longer. But if I end up in a situation where I am about to pull the trans, then I might give a shot to try my luck.

[Tom H]

As mentioned, check the shift linkages at the trans. Maybe one has come loose at a connection and is hitting the frame or something. I installed rod end bearings to the linkages on one of my bikes. It would go into first, but not second. A close look showed the bolt for the rod end was hitting the frame. If it could have moved another smidgen, it would have gone into second. I changed a few bolts around and all was well again.

Tom

[Adv_hoon]

As mentioned, check the shift linkages at the trans. Maybe one has come loose at a connection and is hitting the frame or something. I installed rod end bearings to the linkages on one of my bikes. It would go into first, but not second. A close look showed the bolt for the rod end was hitting the frame. If it could have moved another smidgen, it would have gone into second. I changed a few bolts around and all was well again.

Tom

Yes I will later this week. It is parked at my parents house. Just left it there and pulled the KZ750 out instead :)

Thanks a lot for all the help. Hope it is something I can fix without removing the transmission.

[wymple]

I have zero idea how mine developed a spot of rust on that lever. It wasn't stationary before that and fluid changes were regular. And it was a very small spot

[TOMB]

Some things I've experienced in the past 5 speeds.

The selector spring broke and is jamming the selector mechanism, it's on the rear of the transmission. Disassemble required,

Or the detent selector pin on the selector drum has broken (its located on the side of the transmission where the trans vent exits the transmission behind the starter motor.) Remove starter remove vent and spring an the selector pin tip. try not to move the gear shift if at all possible (but may be needed to be done to make sure the selector pin tip rides in the grove of the drum.

TOMB

[Adv_hoon]

Some things I've experienced in the past 5 speeds.

The selector spring broke and is jamming the selector mechanism, it's on the rear of the transmission. Disassemble required,

Or the detent selector pin on the selector drum has broken (its located on the side of the transmission where the trans vent exits the transmission behind the starter motor.) Remove starter remove vent and spring an the selector pin tip. try not to move the gear shift if at all possible (but may be needed to be done to make sure the selector pin tip rides in the grove of the drum.

TOMB

Thanks a lot for these. I will definitely look at removing the starter motor and vent to see if I can find something wrong there, if my linkage seems fine, before removing the entire transmission. That could be a tip that saves me a lot of time. So thanks a lot!

[Old Jock]

 Here I go again

You sound like you may not need this, but I did a write up many years back on taking the box to pieces after you get it out, this might give you a better understanding of what's in there before you pull it apart.

Mine is the Gearbox Rebuilding with pictures by John Noble, but there are some other fantastic articles by people more experienced than me, the amazing Pete Roper and Rolf Halverson for example. The gearbox shimming with pictures for example, that I'd do when in there, if you need to take it apart.

https://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzitech.dk/gb_en_complex-technical.htm

Hope that's of some use

John

[Adv_hoon]

Here I go again

You sound like you may not need this, but I did a write up many years back on taking the box to pieces after you get it out, this might give you a better understanding of what's in there before you pull it apart.

Mine is the Gearbox Rebuilding with pictures by John Noble, but there are some other fantastic articles by people more experienced than me, the amazing Pete Roper and Rolf Halverson for example. The gearbox shimming with pictures for example, that I'd do when in there, if you need to take it apart.

https://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzitech.dk/gb_en_complex-technical.htm

Hope that's of some use

John

Thanks a million! This is pure gold. I actually thought about looking for some pictures or drawings of the internal workings of the transmission to help me figure out the possible scenarios for the fault. As well as provide a little inspiration for where I might give it a few gentle nods with a plastic hammer to see if I can loosen something before taking everything apart 

[Adv_hoon]

So it was quite the roller coaster ride figuring out what was wrong.

The linkage seemed fine, so I lost the little hope I had of it being an easy fix early in the process. But then I pulled the inspection plug on the gearbox and to my big surprise could not see any oil at all in the transmission. This surprised me quite a lot as I was told that a reputable shop had done a service on it last year and as it does not leak any oil (which of course can be because there is nothing to leak :) ) then I had never thought that could be an issue.

I found some oil and filled the gearbox to a little bit below the inspection hole. Then I started the bike and went for a short test drive. Within a few hundred meters I heard a little clonk and suddenly I could change gears again as if nothing had ever happened. I was quite ecstatic and drove a little while to make sure that it really had worked and all seemed fine. It was so nice!

Then I worked a bit on the bike and changed an ignition coil which had caused some very annoying issues with running between 2000 and 3500 rpm. And suddenly they were completely gone and the bike rode properly for the first time since I bought it. But on one of the shorter test rides I suddenly heard a little clonk from the gearbox again and then it would not shift down again. After a few hundred meters the same little clonk and then it worked again only to the jump out of gear and then when it got back into gear it suddenly felt like there was extra resistance in the gearbox. It did not give anymore weird noises but it just felt really tight, especially in 3rd and 5th gear.

So what started as a somewhat happy day and "easy" fix now turned into a transmission rebuild.

My theory is that running it without or with very little oil for god knows how many kilometers have probably hurt some of the gears somewhat. Pulling the inspection plug again I could see some small chunks of metal on the magnet. So filling oil back into the gearbox may have caused some of the debris that could have resided in the bottom of the gearbox to swirl around and now probably have wedged in between some surfaces to cause the extra resistance I could feel while driving.

It has been quite the introduction to Italian motorcycles with this one for me :)