V7 III Dead On the Side of the Road

[smdl]

Hi, folks.

I'm currently sitting on the side of the road, waiting for a tow to arrive, and thought I'd get a head start on diagnosing the issue.  I'd appreciate any insight anyone might have. 

The bike is a 2017 V7 III, and here are the symptoms:

I was riding along at freeway speeds, and the bike suddenly died.  No warning, no stumbling, no hesitation.  Just instantly dead.  It still has power, all dash lights are on, and the engine cranks fast (normal), but it won't run. 

When I turn on the key, I can hear the fuel pump run for a few seconds and then stop.  Bike has lots of fuel as I just topped up.  Other bikes fueled from the same station (Costco) and same fuel type (Premium) and have had no issue.

Side stand up or down makes no difference.  Kill switch is on (won't crank otherwise), clutch in/out has no impact, neutral or not had no impact.  I have checked all the fuses that are accessible without tools (only bike I have that I don't carry tools on 🙄), and all *look* okay.  Will check with a meter and check relays when I get home.

At this point, I'm suspecting a fuse, relay or ignition part.  Any other thoughts welcomed!

Fortunately, I'm relatively close to home!

Thanks,
Shaun

[antmanbee]

Are you getting a spark and fuel?
If you have neither, check the cam time sensor on the front left of the engine.

[guzzisteve]

I would do a compression test when you get back, hope that's not it though. How many miles?

[Dirk_S]

Check your spark plugs and boots and see if they’re arc’ing over metal.

[pehayes]

Hose popped off of fuel pump/filter?

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[smdl]

I would do a compression test when you get back, hope that's not it though. How many miles?

Thanks, Steve.  Compression sounds okay when cranking, so I hope not, too.  Will check it out, though.

Cheers,
Shaun

[smdl]

Check your spark plugs and boots and see if they’re arc’ing over metal.

Will check them, for sure, without it would seem strange to me for both to go out at exactly the same moment, and in a dry day.  Thanks for the thought.

Cheers,
Shaun

[smdl]

Hose popped off of fuel pump/filter?

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

Will have a look.  I couldn't see any fuel swirling when the pump was running, but I'll have a look.

Thanks!

Shaun

[smdl]

Are you getting a spark and fuel?
If you have neither, check the cam time sensor on the front left of the engine.

I think I'm getting fuel (from the smell) but likely no spark, based upon the way it died (like flipping a switch).

Just got home with the bike, so I'll start looking at it more closely.

Thanks for the suggestion!

Shaun

[smdl]

Hi, folks. 

Sincere thanks to everyone who has offered suggestions -- all are very much appreciated.

Having dug into things a bit, I now know a bit more.  Here's what I have found:

• I had a Check Engine Light on, so I connected Guzzidiag and checked for codes.  The only one showing was a stored (old) code:  P1607 Data file saved (for safety): Invalid Signal
• All indicators in GD seem to be working properly  (kill switch, side stand, etc.).  The only odd one is that it shows the clutch as "pulled" all the time, but that was the case when I checked it last year
• I checked all the fuses I could find, and all have continuity.  Haven't located the relays, yet, but will check the manual and have a look at those.
• I pulled the plugs and confirmed that there is spark to both cylinders.
• I wanted to check compression, but neither of my testers have a 10mm adapter, so I'll pick one up tomorrow.  In the meantime, while not scientific, I have to say that compression *feels* very strong in both cylinders.  <shrug> 

Sorry, Steve, I just realized that I didn't answer your question.  The bike has ~15,000 KMs on it, so about 9300 miles

So, knowing now that spark is present, and compression *seems* to be there, it would seem that this leaves fuel as the most likely.  I can hear the fuel pump running, so that probably isn't the cause.  I'm currently leaning towards Patrick's suggestion of if fuel hose (or filter).  Why is it that the tank is always absolutely full when I need to get into it?    

Anything else that I should check before pulling the tank?  I'll search for any tips on changing the fuel filter before getting in there.  Can't remember if I already ordered a spare filter, but probably.  Will have a look.

Thanks again.

Shaun

[Vagrant]

If you haven't changed it yet it has a 1/2 plastic POS fuel filter. Quite a few have split open. Siphon the gas out and replace it with an all metal one. Search here and the should be a bunch of info on it.

[Tkelly]

I had crank sensors go bad on 2 1100 Guzzis.

[SmithSwede]

If the crank phase sensor is not working on a small block, then you don’t get spark or fuel.  So if you are sure you have good spark, then it’s a fuel issue and not the phase sensor.   

Personally I’d spray starting fluid into intake manifold to see if it runs for a bit, thereby proving issue is lack of fuel.  Then diagnose from there. 

[smdl]

Well, the culprit seems to be another failed fuel filter.  I had planned to change it (and the one in my V85) this winter.  Wish I'd done it last winter.  🙄

I know that Kev M is firm that there is no evidence that these *all* will fail, and he's right, but enough of them fail that I'll add my voice to those who recommend changing them preemptively.  I sure wish I had.





If you look closely, you can see that the filter has swelled and split where the metal and plastic meet. 

I thought I already had a spare here, but apparently not.  I'll have to get a couple ordered.

Hope that's all that is wrong, but I suspect so.  I'll report back when it's all back together.

Thanks again for the info, and kudos to Patrick and Vagrant for nailing the correct source off the problem.

Cheers,
Shaun

[Kev m]

Good report. Looks like it separated at the seam. But lasted a long time. Maybe I'll consider finally thinking about ours in s year or so.

[smdl]

 

[Sye]

That looks bad. I don't understand why it's in two halves instead of a solid body. I have a thought.

Mahle make a range of solid bodied, in tank filters that are fitted as standard to a lot of BMW motorcycles. Here's the KL145 which will never fail. The dimensions are Height including feed pipes 94mm, diameter 49.6mm. Inlet and outlet diameter 8mm. Something like this could replace the filter if it's about the same size. If the KL145 is too big, there are plenty of smaller ones available.

[pat80flh]

Hi, folks. 

  Why is it that the tank is always absolutely full when I need to get into it?    

.

.

Shaun

    As a retired auto mechanic I can attest that NO fuel pump ever fails unless the tank has recently been filled.

[bad Chad]

The newer Guzzi, as I understand, now use a all metal filler.  It only took something la decade to make the change over!

[smdl]

That looks bad. I don't understand why it's in two halves instead of a solid body. I have a thought.

Mahle make a range of solid bodied, in tank filters that are fitted as standard to a lot of BMW motorcycles. Here's the KL145 which will never fail. The dimensions are Height including feed pipes 94mm, diameter 49.6mm. Inlet and outlet diameter 8mm. Something like this could replace the filter if it's about the same size. If the KL145 is too big, there are plenty of smaller ones available.

Hi, Sye.

Yes, this is exactly what people have been using to replace the original crap filters (whether made by Mahle or others).  Here it is in UFI guise, as well:

https://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=164_165&products_id=40

Cheers,
Shaun

[fotoguzzi]

The newer Guzzi, as I understand, now use a all metal filler.  It only took something la decade to make the change over!

more like 15 years. Didn’t this start when the filter was put in the tank of the EV in about 2002? How dumb is that?

[twodogs]

Like I said I think they passed a law that the fuel tank must be full when you need to take it off.

[twowheeladdict]

How hard is it for y'all to drain the fuel tank into a container?  LOL! 

I will see how long the fuel filter lasts in my V7III which has only had non-ethanol fuel since new with only the occasional ethanol fuel when run through while out and about.  Then filled with non-ethanol before parking in the shop.

[Cam3512]

V85’s filter is all metal.





On the older Cali’s up through the Calvin the fuel lines were the issue.  Even with an all metal filter, the hoses were not fully submersible.  Ethanol would eventually turn them to mush and they would pop off (ask me how I know).  Then they corrected the fuel lines and used half plastic filters.  Took em almost 20 years to get it right!

[antmanbee]

I did a tank clean and fuel filter and hose replacement today on my V7. The bike only has 3600mi but someone has been in there before. The filter had been replaced but they still used the old hose with the wrong type of clamp. I replaced the hose too with the proper submersible hose and the proper clamps.

[guzzisteve]

Goes to show ya don't believe everything you read, they will use up stock they have before all will have all metal filters.

Way to go on the find.

[mechanicsavant]

Just a thought about emptying a fuel tank .Harbour Freight sells a Pneumatic vacuum pump for evacuation of A/C systems . It also works great on fuel tanks . Works on venturi  principle, no moving parts no sparks ! Sucks a tank dry i a min. Or so . I place it in a bucket , works like a charm . I know a few vintage car guys have been doing it 4 years . If you’re a bit nervous do it outside . Oh about $20

[Huzo]

I did a tank clean and fuel filter and hose replacement today on my V7. The bike only has 3600mi but someone has been in there before. The filter had been replaced but they still used the old hose with the wrong type of clamp. I replaced the hose too with the proper submersible hose and the proper clamps.

And umm…
Did it start ?

[antmanbee]

And umm…
Did it start ?

I am pretty sure it will. I won't know for a few days. I have to construct a breather system/canister, a new battery mount for a lithium battery and a mounting plate to relocate the ECU and air temp sensor.
I just posted the fuel pump assembly picture here because it pertained to what smdl will have to do.

[Alfetta]

I'm still running the stock filter (for now)..  I think I'll order an all steel unit, however I think I will relocate the filter and get it out of the tank.
I think it is kinda stupid to have a service item that is in a very non service able location..

I've been Guzzied !