The V85TT Shuts Down Without Warning Saga, Part III

[DesertPilot]

As I noted so glumly a few weeks earlier, my V85TT has cleverly decided to shut down without warning 10-20 miles into a ride.  Or 16-32 km into a ride, as the case may be.  The engine would stop, fuel pump turn off, instrument panel go dark, and everything would stop, as if I'd just turned off the key.  Then, 30 seconds or so later, it would light back up again.  After checking the battery, fuses, voltages at the fuse box, connectors, main ground, ignition switch, seeking and receive some excellent advice from the forums, puzzling over the wiring diagram, and checking everything else I could think of, I threw in the towel, scheduled a service appointment, and and rode it to dealer.  On surface streets.  Which was fortunate because it shut down twice along the way.

I'm stumped.  And since the bike is not safe to ride, if they can't come up with a fix I believe in, I'll face a bit of a poser deciding what to do with a new but unrideable bike that's one month out of warranty.  I'll keep everyone posted if I learn anything useful that might be of help to others.  Wish me luck...

[inditx]

Wow sorry to hear that.
Keep us posted.
inditx

[Huzo]

As I noted so glumly a few weeks earlier, my V85TT has cleverly decided to shut down without warning 10-20 miles into a ride.  Or 16-32 km into a ride, as the case may be.  The engine would stop, fuel pump turn off, instrument panel go dark, and everything would stop, as if I'd just turned off the key.  Then, 30 seconds or so later, it would light back up again.  After checking the battery, fuses, voltages at the fuse box, connectors, main ground, ignition switch, seeking and receive some excellent advice from the forums, puzzling over the wiring diagram, and checking everything else I could think of, I threw in the towel, scheduled a service appointment, and and rode it to dealer.  On surface streets.  Which was fortunate because it shut down twice along the way.

I'm stumped.  And since the bike is not safe to ride, if they can't come up with a fix I believe in, I'll face a bit of a poser deciding what to do with a new but unrideable bike that's one month out of warranty.  I'll keep everyone posted if I learn anything useful that might be of help to others.  Wish me luck...

I would take a voltmeter with me and next time it happens, take the seat off and check voltage across the battery, but not at the terminals.
Just down the leads as far as possible to make sure the leads are live.
Could you have a poor connection at the main fuse or dirty/poor connection of the leads to the terminals ?
When you lose power, does the horn work ? Sounds a bit like loss of battery connection and going off line.

[lucian]

If I had to guess,  I would suspect the  side stand switch , I hope it turns out that simple,

[DesertPilot]

I would take a voltmeter with me and next time it happens, take the seat off and check voltage across the battery, but not at the terminals.
Just down the leads as far as possible to make sure the leads are live.
Could you have a poor connection at the main fuse or dirty/poor connection of the leads to the terminals ?
When you lose power, does the horn work ? Sounds a bit like loss of battery connection and going off line.

I've done that but the bike has always switched back on before I could get the voltmeter out.  As far as I've been able to tell -- this involves pulling of the road as fast as I can and sticking my hand in front of the bike -- the headlight is staying on when the bike shuts down, which would mean the battery is still delivering power and the ignition switch is still working.

If I had to guess,  I would suspect the  side stand switch , I hope it turns out that simple,

I thought about that, but I don't believe that would shut everything completely off, including the instrument panel.  After all, if you turn the key on with the sidestand down, the instrument panel does light up.

[lucian]

What happens if you try and take off with the side stand down, or at a slow speed with no traffic around you give the side stand a nudge? Does it mimic the issue? I would agree that the  dash shouldn't go blank. The kill switch may mimic what you describe, I would also check the 30 amp main fuse and it's  connection.

[DesertPilot]

What happens if you try and take off with the side stand down, or at a slow speed with no traffic around you give the side stand a nudge? Does it mimic the issue? I would agree that the  dash shouldn't go blank. The kill switch may mimic what you describe, I would also check the 30 amp main fuse and it's  connection.

Those are all great suggestions, which i tried during the Unsuccessful Search For Answers.  I checked all the fuses, spritzed them and their sockets with contact cleaner, and checked the voltage at the sockets when the bike was OK and things seemed fine -- since it would only stay shut down for 30-60s, I was never able to get my voltmeter out and the seat off in time to check it when it wasn't OK.  The sidestand switch does not shut things down.  As I recall, it only disables the starter.  Since the bike is now at the shop right now, I can't check anything more right now.

Two things I cannot explain, but suspect are symptoms were 1) you always get close to 30 minutes riding time before the bike shuts down and 2) it turns back on after it sits for 30-60s, no matter what the sidestand position, day of the week, phase of the moon, etc. might be.  Why that 30 minute delay?  And why that spontaneous recovery?  Since a similar problem occurred in February, which seemed to get fixed by uploading a new set of ECU software, I cannot help but suspect the ECU -- maybe it's ailing, but was temporarily restored to apparent normalcy by the software upload.  I'd have no trouble springing for a new ECU if I cold be assured that was the problem.  It;s the 'assured that was the problem' I worry about, since I did 'assured' once before back in February, and it didn't last.

And oh yes, sometimes, but not always, the ECU throws a random OBDI code, usually a compliant about the throttle body, that doesn't seem to have any relationship with the problem.  A power interruption to the ECU might explain this... as might illness of the ECU itself.  I imagine the shop has called Piagio and II may hear back from them Tuesday.  We shall see...

[Huzo]

Well, on the voltmeter thing.
You could get the voltmeter and attach the leads to the terminals full time while taping the meter to the bike, then take an instantaneous reading when it quits.

[John A]

In the old days, before built in test equipment, BITE, made our lives so much easier  , you sometimes could test components by heating them with a heat gun and maybe find a component that is failing with heat. Intermittent electrical problems are a challenge alright. It should be covered under warranty since the trouble started when it was in the warranty period.

[Kiwi_Roy]

I suspect one of your relays is dropping out, I would wire a small lamp to the contact of every relay then you can see at a glance if one is dropping out. Use 12 Volt LED lamps.
My money would be on one of the injection relays (35) or (36)
If you can't find any 12 volt lamps use bare LEDs with a 1.2 k resistor in series
https://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2019_V85_TT.gif
I suspect this schematic is wrong, it doesn't show terminal 40/42
Find some nice small wire and just bare it and wrap around the relay pin
wire it relay pin to 1.2k resistor then resistor to the long LED lead with the short lead grounded.
It will take you a while to connect these little lamps but they are worth their weight in gold when it comes to troubleshooting.
mount all the LEDs on a plate and locate it where you can see it sitting on the bike.

This is something I have done on all my fuel injected Guzzi's, the little lights sit there putting on a light show and if ever I need it they will be there.
Good Luck
Update, I would also add a light to the 30 contact of the Start relay (28), that seems to be the same line that powers up the dash (pin 16)

[DesertPilot]

I suspect one of your relays is dropping out...

I didn't have an opportunity to do the Ever-Popular Relay Swap Test, because that would have involved a lot of riding around waiting for a failure, but upon physical examination, the relays did seem to click away and switch poles quite happily upon application of a voltage.  Of course, this would not detect an intermittent failure unless one relay was kind enough to intermit (surely that is a word) at the precise moment it was examined.

...It should be covered under warranty since the trouble started when it was in the warranty period.

That's the line I'll be pursuing.  I figure so long as I don't get grumpy, Piaggio wants a happy customer, the shop wants a happy customer, and I want a happy me, so we all have the same agenda.  But in the end, I don't care too much how it all shakes out as long as the bike gets sorted.  The way I see it, no one else's V85TT seems to have had this problem, so it has to be some weird little glitch in the electronics that's fixable after the prolonged period of frustration and agony that go with phrases like 'I'm sure I know where we are', 'that's funny, this program was running fine last time I used it', 'root canal work', and 'weird little glitch in the electronics' 

[Kiwi_Roy]

The idea of using lamps is they will show immediately if one of the contacts opens because the light will go out.
Take a scrap of metal and drill 3/16" holes 1/2" apart, glue an LED in each hole then solder a 1.2k resistor to each of the long leads

[Cam3512]

Is your V85 one of the earlier bikes subject to a few minor recalls?  Rider pegs, seal in the rear drive, etc.  if so, Guzzi extended warranty out to 3 years for the hassle.

[Wayne Orwig]

It is not going to be something like a sidestand switch. Since the dashboard goes dark.

It is likely to be the ignition switch, a relay, or a fuse holder. Maybe a connection.

I would start by replacing the fuses and relays, looking closely at the relay sockets for heat damage. Maybe a little blast of Deoxit on them.

As Roy pointed out, a simple light bulb with wires on it is a great debug tool.

[n3303j]

At one time i had a Yuasa battery that was fairly new, but developed an intermittent internal discontinuity between the cells. Randomly the bike would just loose power. Finally discovered problem when, in frustration,  I punched the battery and it came back to life.

[DesertPilot]

Thanks again for all the suggestions!  I did make some attempt to check all the fuses and relays.  While it's quite possible that my check might have been less than entirely adequate since this is the 21st Century -- a.k.a. The Century of Diminished Expectations -- I didn't spot anything obvious.  I'd wondered if the fellows at Autozone might have made some mistake with the battery load test and the battery wasn't good after all, but the bike cranks and starts no problem, so there's plenty of power in that little plastic box, and since my experience has been that bad batteries usually finish dying die completely before I can even get out my checkbook -- hey, I'm a Greek, it takes us time to spend money -- I suspect this one is OK.

My thought is that since 1) a software upgrade seemed to fix the problem back in February and 2) I haven't heard of anyone else needing a software upgrade to fix such a problem, which suggests that the software itself was not at fault, maybe some memory in the ECU got corrupted, the software upgrade overwrote the bad byte ("Bad byte, Ecu!  Bad byte!  No dog biscuit for you!"  ), and now, six months later, some memory has gotten corrupted again.  The only other thing I could think of would be some intermittent fault in the wiring harness or grounds that doesn't show up until the bike has bounced around over the road for 30 minutes or so interrupts power to the ECU, causing it to glitch and sometimes throw an OBDI code, but this 'it recovers by itself before I can get the multimeter out' bit has put paid to my attempts to check that one out.

This is a 2020 E4 bike, which probably emerged from the factory 5 minutes after the production runs that got the extended warranty because, as I noted above, this is the 21st Century, but I'm not too troubled by this.  I just want to get a repair I can believe in, since I think we'll all agree that the alternative -- giving up and buying an Africa Twin -- is much too dreadful to contemplate!

[AJ Huff]

Since it's already back at the dealer hoping they can witness the problem themselves and find you a corrective action.

-AJ

[Speciality]

FWIW my thought is a failing battery cell too. I use the UpMap App on my V7 850, having remapped the ECU. One of the live displays it shows is ECU voltage. Mine shows 15 bolts or so after starting. There is a long thread elsewhere about poor r/r frying batteries, albeit on V7 IIIs. The fault could be internal breakdown in the battery. Still, it could be lots of others things too, so it’ll be interesting to see what the dealer comes up with. Good luck.

[Kiwi_Roy]

I strongly recommend installing a Battery Voltmeter
Wire it across the park/city light. with a length of wire from an old wall wort (the small black pair) takes all the guesswork out of wondering if the battery is ok 12-14 Volts 
https://www.lightinthebox.com/en/p/brand-compatibility-type-usb-ports-for-output-voltage_p7490085.html?currency=USD&litb_from=bing_shopping&sku=1_6916&country_code=us&utm_source=bingshopping&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=bingshopping&msclkid=8de441c31ce512e7265822a242e2e511

[twowheeladdict]

I think I would start frequenting pool halls in the city on the bike.  Improve your game and maybe get lucky and someone will take care of your problem.   

[egschade]

At one time i had a Yuasa battery that was fairly new, but developed an intermittent internal discontinuity between the cells. Randomly the bike would just loose power. Finally discovered problem when, in frustration,  I punched the battery and it came back to life.

As noted might it be a battery gone bad? Not that expensive to put a new one in and see what happens...

[Huzo]

As noted might it be a battery gone bad? Not that expensive to put a new one in and see what happens...

As mentioned, an on board full time voltmeter jury rigged for the moment she plays up, will drill straight into the root cause.
Wired in as Kiwi Roy says is easy and less than the cost of a battery you may not need.
Would be better than throwing parts at it, if you put a new battery in and it goes ok for some time, you still don’t know if that was your anomaly.
You’ll be unsure whether to go anywhere on it.

[DesertPilot]

The arguments against it being a battery problem seem to be

1) The battery passed a load test, which suggests it's doing better than merely holding voltage.

2) The battery would have had to be failing 30 minutes into a ride in just such a way as to make the ECU fail, shut down the bike, and throw a random OBD code back in February even though the alternator must have been alternating away quite happily, recover at exactly the same time the shop updated the ECU software, stay fine for 6 months, then start failing 30 minutes into rides again in much the same way in October.  I know that batteries are weird, and can on occasion be possessed by demons, but some aspects of this behavior, such as the 'get better for six months after a software update, then flake out again' part, stretch my conception of battery weirdness and/or the ability of demons to possess them.  This would also seem to be an argument against the Bad Ground Or Flaky Wiring Harness Hypothesis.

The shop. which is usually quite swift, has had the bike for several days without getting back to me, which suggests an element of perplexity on their part as well, but we shall see.  I'll keep everyone posted as this by-now-strangely-fascinating saga develops.

[Huzo]

The battery is only as good as the leads and connections at each end…

[mondtster]

A battery passing the typical load test most shops would be able to perform does not necessarily mean it is good. Sometimes they require being subjected to longer term loading or charging before they open up… right in line with your statement that things are fine for 30 minutes and come back after a few seconds.

I’d be trying a new battery before I did anything else.

[DesertPilot]

An Important Clarification!

This is not a horror story!  Quite the contrary!  If anything, I am quite happy with the response I've been getting from my dealer and Piaggio, who got on top of things within 24 hours (!!!) back in February the first time this problem showed up and are doing the best they can right now, even as I type these words.  Faced with what must be the nightmare scenario for any service department -- a rare intermittent electrical problem that as far as I can tell, no one else has ever seen -- they've been soldiering on in a way that reflects quite well on them, and compares favorably with pretty much every other dealer or service department I've ever dealt with over the past half century.  These guys are good.

As for me, I'm more intrigued than anything else.  I have another bike to ride while I wait for this one to get sorted, it's the beginning of rainy reason, when it's wise to stay off the road for a week or so anyway while 40 million Californians resume their acquaintance with the concepts of 'windshield wipers', 'reduced visibility', and 'wet pavement', and I'm sure I'll get the bike back in good running order soon, so my main feeling is one of curiosity -- what, I wonder, could possibly be going on? -- combined with hope that someone else might benefit from whatever the shop and Piaggio might learn.

I imagine I'll know more in a few days, I have every reason to believe the news will be good, I'll keep everyone posted, and thanks again for all the advice -- which assured me, among other things, that I'd checked pretty much everything I could with the means I had available.

[Bulldog9]

The battery is only as good as the leads and connections at each end…

Yup, I'm betting this is a loose or poor connection in the system, could be a plug, lead, ground, or bad battery, or connection at the alternator/regulator, even bad fuse or connection at the fusebox.

[twowheeladdict]

I am confused by all these battery theories.  Is moto guzzi doing something different?  I have push started bikes with dead batteries, and jump started bikes with dead batteries and ridden the bikes for weeks like that when I was young.  Once the bike is running, isn't the stator/alternator, and voltage regulator enough to keep the bike running?

How would a dead battery or a poor connection to the battery kill the entire bike as if the main fuse was blown or the ignition was turned off? 

I guess I am missing something here.   

[AJ Huff]

I am confused by all these battery theories.  Is moto guzzi doing something different?  I have push started bikes with dead batteries, and jump started bikes with dead batteries and ridden the bikes for weeks like that when I was young.  Once the bike is running, isn't the stator/alternator, and voltage regulator enough to keep the bike running?

How would a dead battery or a poor connection to the battery kill the entire bike as if the main fuse was blown or the ignition was turned off? 

I guess I am missing something here.

I thought the same thing. I thought once an engine was running the alternator did all the electrical work. But then figured I was just ignorant.

-AJ

[Milosh]

My V9 Bobber had the same issue. It was an intermittent ignition switch. Good luck.