U/J Carrier bearing collapse

[jacksonracingcomau]

I've had the bike over 9yrs, never had the swing arm off, which sounds like a long time for the bearing to eventually rust out completely, if due to moisture contamination prior to my ownership.

Thanks, Mart

You have, of course, nailed it completely in that sentence, I can speculate on prior years but those 9 are yours
The next 50 are the important ones
Love it and it will love you, neglect at your peril
Do not waste any more time nor money, neither should you ever expect fkd bits to last
Have a butchers inside drive box, pinion housing just pulls out, if teeth missing it’s maybe too late
If all good , grease splines nicely, I’d prob weld sleeve to pinion but if not really sloppy grease’ll do
Thing has been badly abused, treat it like dog or child, with love, forgiveness is possible

[izzug otom]

You have, of course, nailed it completely in that sentence, I can speculate on prior years but those 9 are yours
The next 50 are the important ones
Love it and it will love you, neglect at your peril
Do not waste any more time nor money, neither should you ever expect fkd bits to last
Have a butchers inside drive box, pinion housing just pulls out, if teeth missing it’s maybe too late
If all good , grease splines nicely, I’d prob weld sleeve to pinion but if not really sloppy grease’ll do
Thing has been badly abused, treat it like dog or child, with love, forgiveness is possible

"Thing has been badly abused, treat it like dog or child, with love, forgiveness is possible"  . . Haha, thanks mate, love that

Ah I see, to inspect the drive box, it just means separating the flange from the drive housing. I thought it involved a complete strip down of the box, which I'd read about and seemed fairly complicated. I'll see about having a go at that tmro or Monday.

I just read Pete Roper's piece 'rear drive tear down' and in the procedure for checking pinion shaft bearings he mentions about where there shouldn't be any play discernable, but I didn't quite understand it.

On mine there's 1mm or so play in the shaft rotational direction, but there's zero play if trying to pull it out and push it in, and I'll check again, but I don't think there was any play in being able to rock the shaft. Everything feels smooth when rotating it by hand.

Am I right in thinking there should be no play whatsoever in normal rotational movement?

[jacksonracingcomau]

, no discernible play, bearings are shimmed and that big nut is tight
But there must be some backlash between gears.
Get the flange out and all becomes obvious
If tight, don’t chisel it apart, hold pinion shaft with soft jaw grips and belt box off with rubber hammer

[Tom H]

I think that what is being said. Is to pull the pinion carrier out of the bevel box. You can then look at the teeth on the pinion as well as the ring gear. If all looks good, your "probably" fine.

Before removing the pinion carrier, mark the bevel box and carrier so that you know which way to slide the carrier back in. As you noticed, there are holes/slits for oil to flow.

On the rust......Your pics sure look like rust, Like rust that I would find on bare steel constantly dunked in and out of ocean salt water. But your saying that it's just the dried out grease making it look like serious rust. If it's just grease, not idea how it got that way So I should take back my water in through the U joint boot thought.

The pinion splines as pictured look like they are eaten away by rust. But as you mention, they look perfect below the clip. So that kinda throws out my sitting in water idea.

You live  in a place where it rains at least once or twice a year , so water came to mind.

On the swingarm....I do not consider removing the swingarm a normal maintenance job. A good grease in the pivot bearings will last many years. For the drive shaft. Some will pull the bevel box off the swingarm every, or every few rear tire changes to grease the splines on the drive shaft. But, at every tire change, the grease in the wheel to bevel box should be added. Some will also clean these splines so that no contamination is left, then grease them.

Spline grease may have been covered already. But, Wurth SIG 3000 grease is generally the go to for splines, except the trans input splines. There are spline greases from BMW and Honda (not sure it you can get Honda anymore) that do a great job. Lacking this, I would think that a "tacky" grease would suffice. and lacking that I would use Permatex silver anti-sieze. That I would consider a VERY light dusting on the trans input shaft.

Tom

[izzug otom]

, no discernible play, bearings are shimmed and that big nut is tight
But there must be some backlash between gears.
Get the flange out and all becomes obvious
If tight, don’t chisel it apart, hold pinion shaft with soft jaw grips and belt box off with rubber hammer

Thanks, I've got my rubber mallet out of my camping gear, I'll have a go at removing the pinion carrier and report back 

[izzug otom]

I think that what is being said. Is to pull the pinion carrier out of the bevel box. You can then look at the teeth on the pinion as well as the ring gear. If all looks good, your "probably" fine.

Before removing the pinion carrier, mark the bevel box and carrier so that you know which way to slide the carrier back in. As you noticed, there are holes/slits for oil to flow.

On the rust......Your pics sure look like rust, Like rust that I would find on bare steel constantly dunked in and out of ocean salt water. But your saying that it's just the dried out grease making it look like serious rust. If it's just grease, not idea how it got that way So I should take back my water in through the U joint boot thought.

The pinion splines as pictured look like they are eaten away by rust. But as you mention, they look perfect below the clip. So that kinda throws out my sitting in water idea.

You live  in a place where it rains at least once or twice a year , so water came to mind.

On the swingarm....I do not consider removing the swingarm a normal maintenance job. A good grease in the pivot bearings will last many years. For the drive shaft. Some will pull the bevel box off the swingarm every, or every few rear tire changes to grease the splines on the drive shaft. But, at every tire change, the grease in the wheel to bevel box should be added. Some will also clean these splines so that no contamination is left, then grease them.

Spline grease may have been covered already. But, Wurth SIG 3000l grease is generally the go to for splines, except the trans input splines. There are spline greases from BMW and Honda (not sure it you can get Honda anymore) that do a great job. Lacking this, I would think that a "tacky" grease would suffice. and lacking that I would use Permatex silver anti-sieze. That I would consider a VERY light dusting on the trans input shaft.

Tom

Thanks Tom.

I don't have any reason to suspect damage to the gearing teeth in the bevel box, with the rusting not reaching the bevel box side of the pinion shaft circlip, the oil ran clear when it seeped out, and it rotates smoothly by hand, but it seems an easy enough task to inspect it whilst apart, it'd be daft if I didn't.

It could have sustained some damage when the carrier bearing collapsed and the subsequent clunking that occurred, so I'm very happy to inspect and see. If there's damage, I need to know, if there's no damage, I'll have the peace of mind in knowing that with certainty. Fingers crossed, it's the latter.

On the rust. I have no doubt that the pinion shaft has suffered from rusting away, as you say, so much so that it looks like it's been in and out of sea water, or here in the UK, the salted roads in winter. How that's happened without going beyond that circlip is a complete mystery to my mind, but it's no doubt had serious corrosion issues for a sustained period of time at some point. The only reason I have some question over how it occurred, is that the corrosion stops dead at the circlip, and I can't figure out just how that can be the case. I'm not disputing the fact that it is badly corroded though, I can see clearly that is the case somehow, and just trying to figure out how.

This pic shows best how it's corroded badly as far as the circlip, then the other side pretty much looking like it did when it came out of the Mandello factory.




As regards the colour of the grease, the colour is certainly confusing things to some extent, but here, you can see the same grease had been used on the teeth of the drive connection between the wheel hub and the bevel box.  There is no corrosion anywhere in this shot, so there is absolutely no rust influencing the colour of the grease here. Please bear in mind that the wetness here is not the result of any oil leaking, it's because I've applied mineral/white spirits to clean the old grease off, prior to regreasing. The grease here was mostly caked dry before this. Hopefully this might give you an idea of how the colour of grease is inaccurately making it look like red rust all over the surface of the pinion splines.



For anyone skimming through the pics, there's not a chance of any rust contamination in this photo, and the wetness is due to mineral/white spirits I've applied for cleaning off the old grease, not due to any oil seepage.

Thinking this through, possible explanations I've imagined are that water has trickled down the drive shaft, and got trapped in the coupler, but not enough water to build up and enter the bevel box or affect the box side of the circlip. Not really sure that'd be possible really, but perhaps the oil circulating from the bevel box has been enough to keep that side of the circlip free of corrosion.

Or perhaps, a long time ago, the grease was applied without first cleaning and ensuring it was dry, so moisture was trapped against the shaft, allowing it to continue eating away at it.

Or, it's simply the deterioration of the grease over time has allowed water to penetrate and attack the splines. This still doesn't explain, to me, why it would stop at the circlip.

Or, and at the risk of just coming across like I just don't want it to be down to me  I'm beginning to think the most likely case may be, that the main damage to the pinion splines was caused for whatever reason at some stage during its 19 years of life up to when I bought it 9 years ago, and that it had been given some treatment back then, having been well greased to prevent, or slow down, further damage. One other aspect, to my mind, that may support this, is that I'm wondering if the coupler might have been replaced back then as part of said treatment, because in comparison, the coupler's female splines are in a much better state than the pinion shaft splines. Where the pinion shaft has clear signs of wear damage, along with the corrosion, the coupler's angular splines, relatively speaking, look pretty much intact. In the pic here, although it's a bit grotty in there, you can see the form of the teeth really haven't been compromised, there's no uneven wear or chewed up areas, and of course again, there's been plenty of that same reddish coloured grease, all be it dried out, packed in there, which gives that dull red appearance to the end of the drive shaft at the back of the coupler recess.




Even then, why not beyond the circlip is still a puzzle to me.

I have seen a couple of threads here where people have said that the boot is not very effective at keeping all the water out, even when it appears intact, along with advice to apply rubber grease, and or silicone to seal around where it's clamped to the motor and swing arm, so that may explain the water getting into the carrier bearing in my case.

I've also heard people say about water coming in via the boot and running down the swing arm to the pinion shaft area, it being downhill/stream etc, but how can this be with a tight fitting carrier bearing, and good snug fit between the uj and the inner carrier bearing race (in my case seized so tight that penetrating lube couldn't get in), without first breaking down the integrity of the bearing's seals and grease, or without so much water collecting above the carrier bearing, that it finds its way through the uj/driveshaft splines? Is that really possible without considerable water damage to the bearing first?

If I am thinking along the right lines re being previous damage, although it's natural to assume everything here is connected, it is quite feasible that the carrier bearing collapse I've experienced is not connected, and a completely different event to the pinion shaft damage, being separated by over 10yrs.

I couldn't find any significant fresh rust on examination, cleaning etc. Plenty of evidence of some pretty severe corrosion, but not actual surface rust, and this is where the murky red colouration to the grease causes some confusion. Of course the grease could have absorbed some of the rust, but still, if this was recent damage, I'd certainly have expected to find a considerable amount of very obvious rust, as I found with the remnants of the bearing internals, but I found none.

The evidence and my detective skills have pretty much convinced me that this must be the most likely explanation here, not most likely enough that I'd bet my bike on it, but it seems to make most sense.

Yes, I'd seen the Wurth SIG 3000l being highly recommended, but although I could find Wurth products in the UK, I couldn't locate any SIG 3000l anywhere in the UK. I've got some Red n Tacky grease which is, I believe, an aluminium complex grease, designed for high loads, fretting prevention etc, so I thought I'd give that a go, and check how it's doing. I also have some Granville cv joint moly grease, designed for CV joints, uj's and propshafts etc, but figured the tacky stuff might have more staying power when it comes to being flung off.

I got some red rubber grease for the boot too, must make sure I don't get that, and the red tacky stuff mixed up now

Rain, yes, at least once or twice a year  , and salt on the roads in winter to prevent ice, makes Winter an arduous time for vehicles of any kind here 

[Tom H]

That is odd how it stopped at the clip. Could be as simple as a lousy grease was used?? Maybe it was Yak fat???

Who knows how it happened. Maybe when a PO was working in there they were outside in a rain storm and the grease container filled with water and they used it anyways?

I had a typo on the Wurth SIG 3000 not 3000l.  Sorry about that. I think the red and tacky will do the job just fine for all the splines your working on.

You doing a great job taking your time to make sure all is done up as best as it can be

Tom

[izzug otom]

That is odd how it stopped at the clip. Could be as simple as a lousy grease was used?? Maybe it was Yak fat???

Who knows how it happened. Maybe when a PO was working in there they were outside in a rain storm and the grease container filled with water and they used it anyways?

I had a typo on the Wurth SIG 3000 not 3000l.  Sorry about that. I think the red and tacky will do the job just fine for all the splines your working on.

You doing a great job taking your time to make sure all is done up as best as it can be

Tom

I think I'll still be wondering about why the shaft beneath the circlip has avoided corrosion when I'm on my deathbed, it's such a puzzle to me  . . . . . And yes, Yak Fat . . .  it seems as good a theory as any 

No worries about the typo, I couldn't remember the exact lettering. I'd heard that Antietam Classic Cycle Charlie recommended the Wurth SIG3000, and tried to locate some, but despite finding UK Wurth stockists, I couldn't find it with any UK suppliers. Unless they've changed the name for the UK, but I can't see why they would.

Yes, I was hoping it'd be a quicker getting it sorted, but when I realised how much was involved, and the state of things, and my lack of experience with such matters, I knew I had to research things thoroughly and take my time, and follow some avenues of advice gratefully gained from you good folk on this forum, in order to feel confident, or at least confident enough, to take the work on with my limited tools, knowledge and lack of a workshop, working on the ground in my yard, or my kitchen floor, and transferring everything there that I work on from my back room, and putting it back there again afterwards (well except for that propshaft  ). My folks are all good with that, and would rather I spend time to get it right, than rush it to get to see them, which took some pressure off. My two bros live near to them so all is good there.

I don't like to just do stuff without fully understanding what I'm doing and why, to the best I can, regardless of what it is, and I have no intention of getting rid of this bike unless it gets to a point where I get too old for the weight of it, so the better and more intimately I know the bike, the better. It's also getting me serious about acquiring a better selection of tools, and creating a workshop in my backroom that I can ride my bike into.

I was hoping to get the uj pressed into the swing arm this afternoon, but I have a problem with my boiler, and have had to shut off my water supply, so have the boiler man coming sometime this aft, so hopefully I'll get on that tomorrow. I've still got to finish building the uj, which I'm just about to do now. After which I'm going to try and remove the pinion drive from the bevel box.

Cheers, Mart

[izzug otom]

Blimey, there are times when you have to realise you're kidding yourself, and there are times when you'd be much better off if you didn't kid yourself in the first place. I must be a proper cocky little fkr, always preferring to do as much as I can myself. I look at whatever the task is, and think to myself, if others can do it, I'll manage . . . tools etc or not 

To be honest, I've been procrastinating over building of the double uj after having such a difficult time just fitting one of the uj crosses to the first yoke, having managed to get a needle lie down, and then, due to the cups being such an extraordinarily tight fit, and after having tried every way feasible to disassemble again without causing damage, I had to chisel the cup off of the yoke, destroying it completely.

I got it fitted eventually, but wasn't altogether happy with it, it was as stiff as hell after pushing the cross in so much to get the standard circlips installed. Then thinning some circlips down for an easier fit I got it freed off and moving, I could still sense the a slight grating needle feel to part of its travel. Maybe from having put too much pressure on the end of the cups to fit the original, I'm not sure.

So yesterday I set about building the UJ, and went through the fitting procedure joining the driveshaft end yoke to the central double yoke. This time, being ultra careful to ensure that all of the needles all stayed in place. I pressed the first cap in using the vice, and everything was fine, I pushed the new cross into it and gave it a good squeeze to ensure the seal would compress, ensuring that the needles were all where they should be. I fitted a thinned circlip and then put the second cap in place, pressed it in a little way, and slid the cross over to this side to check there was no hang up with the needles, and then pressed it home.

I could see the seal on this side compress, so I knew there were no needles lying down, but I couldn't get even the thinned circlip to fit on the second cup, the groove not being exposed enough, even though it was pressed in as far as it would go. Imagine my dismay when examining the problem to find that on the first end I'd pressed in, the seal was not and would not compress! Feck, Feck, Feck!!!

So I can only assume that when I slid the cross to the otherside to check all was going in smoothly, it must have travelled far enough to allow for at least one needle to fall or be pulled out of place, and lie down in the end of the cup . . . . So here I am in the same place I was in on my first aborted attempt, despite focusing specifically on trying to ensure this very thing did not happen ... again

To say I'm feeling frustrated and down hearted is a bit of an understatement.

Either I'm not having enough respect for the job and the skills involved, or the Guzzi crosses are just extremely difficult, or the holes in my yokes have bent themselves out of true, making the cups an excessively tight fit. I don't even know if the latter is even possible.

The principles behind a uj refurb really don't seem like rocket science to me though, supposedly designed to be a relatively easy to service. I watched countless videos on how to install uj's, but they're all on bigger vehicles, land Rovers, Jeeps, SUV's etc, all of which I'd feel confident in tackling, because there's a lot more room for manoeuvre, where as with the compact Guzzi uj, there's virtually none, and from what I could see, if they have a needle go over, it's an easy enough job to disassemble and correct the needles and simply reassemble again, without fkn the caps up leaving a new cross unuseable.

I'd love to see a video of someone refurbishing a Guzzi uj, but I haven't found one. I'd get an idea if mine was more of a struggle than the norm, which due to my lack of experience in dealing with them, I've nothing to really gauge it on.

On these bigger uj's it seems that when you press through from one side, there's enough of the opposite side cup pushed through that you can easily get the full jaws of a pair of mole grips on the cap, and with a bit of twisting, just pull them out. Where as with the Guzzi cross, you get between an 1/8 to a 1/4 inch through, and even clamped in a strong vice and tapped with a hammer, or trying to twist it, won't see that sucker budge. The only way I could get mine off was with many, many hammer blows on a chisel, which does the cup no good at all. I am referring to a new one here, after the yoke orifices had been deburred and had a light sanding with a dremel sanding post to cut through any crap that could interfere with the proceedings.

Should the Guzzi fit really be as tight as gnat's chuff, ie. impossibly tight. I'd really class at least my particular uj as being virtually impossible to extract the cups from without causing irreparable damage to the cross.

This is why the angle grinder was deployed when removing the old crosses, and this only after a good amount of effort had been exerted in the attempt to remove them, resulting only in a good long stint of hammer and chiselling just to remove the first cup. It feels to me that they're beyond ridiculously tight. I really don't see how any one could physically remove a new fitted cup from my uj if a needle was in error and laying at the end of the cup. As regards a needle lying down, I ran all the checks, kept every movement smooth and made sure everything was aligned.

I know there was no needle lying down when I first pushed the cross into the first pressed in cap, as I could squeeze it in by hand and compress the seal, which wouldn't compress if a needle was preventing the cup from being fully seated, so the only time the needle could have fallen, is when I moved the cross as far to the opposite side as possible when trying and ensure the opposite cup accepted the cross trunnion as I pressed it in. Either way I'd done it though, there'd be an equal chance of a needle falling over. 

I'm guessing that when pushing the cross over from one side to the other, the suction and the grease has probably pulled a needle, or needles with it. But still, needles falling over when fitting a uj can happen to the best apparently, even if very occasionally, and disassembly and reassembly should surely be a workable out.

The crosses, supposedly the ones Guzzi have used, cost me just shy of 130 euros, a couple of needles going over is one hell of an expensive mistake to make. I can't help but think it's unreasonable to accept that, seeing as it's such a simple and well known error, well known because it's a common enough fault. But here I am having to suck lemons.

I'll just have to write the 130 euros off that I spent on the crosses, and the hours I've put into prepping the uj etc. I still have a single unused cross, but a fat lot of good that'll do for me, as I've just forked out £175 for a new complete uj, and take it as a life lesson as I vowed to myself that I'll never attempt to refurbish a Guzzi uj for the rest of my sodding days 

I've also decided that I'm going to take the UJ and swing arm to an engineering company to get the uj set in the carrier bearing. I don't want to risk fkn that up at this stage.

Also, regards the pinion shaft carrier. I gave the box some real sturdy blows with a rubber mallet but nothing has shifted there either. However, I've now decided to scrap that job. The reason I was advised to do so in the first place, was because the fear that water, gunk and corrosion had made it down there and polluted the bevel drive reservoir and, as a result, possibly caused damage to the gears and bearings, but it's clear that the corrosion only affected the pinion shaft where the coupler was attached, then nothing between the shaft circlip and the bearings/bevel housing, and the oil that seeped out was translucent like honey, which would indicate that there has been no water contamination.

It also feels totally smooth to turn the gears for enough full rotations to cover the whole of the large gear wheel by hand, so taking all of this into account, there really is nothing at all, to suggest that there's any issue with the rear drive, there is no in and out play on the shaft, and the movement in direction of rotation, I can't actually discern a distance measurement on the shaft backlash, but can feel that there is a slight amount, through the sense of touch, which at a guess might be a mm or so at the actual gears, which seems to be the norm, as far as I can tell, certainly nothing to raise concerns. Of course if there are any lumps of metal when I remove the drain plug, it'll be a different matter, but I have no particular reason to suspect that there will be any.

The last thing I need right now is to take on unnecessary tasks for no particular reason. I hope to get my bike in the back room for a month or two this winter, so that's something I can do then if I want to.

The hammer and drift shifted the stubborn wheel bearing ok.




It wasn't stuck fast due to the bearing rusting after all, it had some sort of really solid and effective bearing retaining glue. The circlip groove being filled with the stuff explains why the circlip needed bending out of shape to remove too. So I think I can bring that bearing out of the freezer, because if anything, it's going to be a sloppy fit. One of my front bearings was also a loose fit, but 4 pings with a punch has been enough to grip, but I'm not sure I'll be able to get the angle with the punch to get into the rear wheel hub housing. I do have some bearing retainer though.







Is there any distinct preference for an effective protective treatment for coating the inside wall of the driveshaft tunnel of the swing arm?

 I assume a long lasting, heavy duty spray grease, but is any particular type favoured. I don't seem to be able to find Red n Tacky spray grease in the UK.

Cheers, Mart

[n3303j]

Four pings with a punch will not retain a loose wheel bearing in the hub.
RC680 Loctite applied to a thoroughly cleaned bore and bearing probably will retain the bearing in the hub.

Just replaced 3 universals on my Ural. Laid a roller over in a cup two separate times. Urals come apart easier so I saved the cups. There are a lot easier jobs than installing universal spiders. A lot of the bigger universals have split mountings. Makes life easy.

[Tom H]

Many many many moons ago I tried to find U joints to fit the Guzzi when I work for an auto parts supplier for repair shops. Never could find the right ones back then. I did take one apart just to see if I could.

The Guzzi U joint IMHO is not repairable, though it can be done. I just came to the conclusion that I just need to bite the price and get a complete U Joint ready to install.

The carrier should with a bit of persuasion slide out. There could be some gasket goop holding it together. BUT THEN AGAIN, it it all feels fine and the gear oil does not look milky, maybe just run it. Make it a winter project.

Tom

[izzug otom]

Four pings with a punch will not retain a loose wheel bearing in the hub.
RC680 Loctite applied to a thoroughly cleaned bore and bearing probably will retain the bearing in the hub.

Just replaced 3 universals on my Ural. Laid a roller over in a cup two separate times. Urals come apart easier so I saved the cups. There are a lot easier jobs than installing universal spiders. A lot of the bigger universals have split mountings. Makes life easy.

Well it wasn't as loose as it looks like the above rear wheel bearing, but it wasn't a tight fit. The pings certainly gave it a much better grip, and I haven't had signs of play or being loose the last couple of times I did my pre MOT service/checks, and obviously the MOT's themselves. I can't recall exactly now as it was 2-3 yrs ago, so not exactly sure, but I think some retainer was used, though I can't remember what it was, it'd have been whatever my mate had on his workshop shelf. He was a Triumph chap and always a stickler for quality  ... I miss the all night sessions we'd spend in his workshop.

Had to fit some temporary skinny handle bars to get through the narrow door




But worth the hassle for a night's work. I never liked all the plastic chrome make-up on the Guzzi's, or the huge plastic dash, and never had need of a rev counter in all my days






It was so good having a place with the tools for simple fabrication jobs, like a simplified dash out of an old alloy electrical box, and making a mount for a small speedo.




Ah, de-plastified and a more spacious, freer front end 




Working in the backyard really isn't as much fun

I'll see just how well the bearing has fared in a couple of months when I get my bike in the back room, but there are no signs of an looseness. The rear end has will have been serviced when I get it back together, and I intend to do the front end too, I have steering head bearings to install, most probably fr wheel bearings, change the fork oil and brake fluids etc.

I'm glad you had a much easier experience with fitting uj's to the Ural, despite laying a couple of reedles over whilst doing so 

[n3303j]

I'm 78 next week. Been doing this stuff for a long time. Been making mistakes (and corrections) long before internet was available to point me in the correct direction. Every project is a lesson. The mistakes are tuition. Education is seldom free. But is always valuable.

[John A]

I'm 78 next week. Been doing this stuff for a long time. Been making mistakes (and corrections) long before internet was available to point me in the correct direction. Every project is a lesson. The mistakes are tuition. Education is seldom free. But is always valuable.

Yep, I figure that if I screw it up, whatever it takes to set it right is the price of that lesson. In fact I just got a lesson on roll up garage doors that while it didn’t cost anything, I did screw it up the first time I replaced door rollers. I took the bottom roller bracket loose without realizing the cable is attached to it. Now I am familiar with it and hopefully there aren’t more exciting things to learn about it. I have three more doors to do…

[izzug otom]

Many many many moons ago I tried to find U joints to fit the Guzzi when I work for an auto parts supplier for repair shops. Never could find the right ones back then. I did take one apart just to see if I could.

The Guzzi U joint IMHO is not repairable, though it can be done. I just came to the conclusion that I just need to bite the price and get a complete U Joint ready to install.

Yes, I'm inclined to agree with that myself, but at the same time, I think we must both be wrong. Otherwise you've got to ask the question, why are the crosses supplied for them, including from a renowned specialist Guzzi parts supplier, if it's practically impossible to refurbish them, or at least impossible to recover from making a simple, common, sometimes unavoidable problem, of a fallen needle/s. I'm sure that would fail some laws on the sale of an item that doesn't fit the description. I mean, can you sell parts for something that isn't quite the right size for something that isn't even serviceable? In most areas of business you can't do that.

I can see that it might be possible, but to take on the job as a mechanic, you'd have to be pretty damn certain that a needle won't lie down, and I don't think there's anyway of knowing until it's too late. Having to tell the customer that you've fkd the job and the parts up, or have to fork out cash to replace the parts damaged, would be embarrassing, and costly They're going to tell the customer to get a new uj, or worse still just turn around and start running at the mere mention of a Guzzi uj repair/replacement.

I was thinking, it may be a lot easier with the 49mm crosses that are also listed fo Guzzi's, if that is, that the circlip grooves are deep enough in for them to be held snuggly, because, if a needle laid itself down, you'd maybe, but only maybe, have enough room to maneuver and remove the cross to correct it, which is the most impossible thing about the 50.2mm ones. I'm not convinced that 1.2mm would make enough difference though.

Also, I just can't see any reason why the new cup needs to be so tight in the yoke, that it needs driving off again with damaging chisel blows if something needs resetting. I know it needs to be a good snug fit, but only tight enough so that the path of least resistance in the designed movement is always found in the needle bearings. The pressure that these cups are cramped under when pressed in, seems excessively over the top by a high degree to accomplish that, and certainly tighter than many other vehicle manufacturers spec.

 I think the holes in the yoke must be able to be opened a tad, so they're still a tight, but not a totally immovable grip. It is simply this one aspect that makes the uj's unserviceable by any home mechanic. If you could, with some reasonable effort, remove the cup again in the event of a fallen needle, there would be no problem at all. I'm no expert mechanic or engineer, but this seems so glaringly obvious, even to me, after my experience in this.

Another thing I don't find very acceptable, is that Guzzi specialists will sell the uj crosses for a specific bike, supplied with circlips that are absolutely impossible to fit in the uj's that they're supposedly purporting to fit. I can't see as that would pass in many other areas of commerce. Ok you may think I'm being a grumpy fkr here, but just based on the straight up logic that if you buy a direct replacement part, especially when it's a part of vital precision engineering, one doesn't expect to have to modify the parts to make it a bodge fit. Not an unfair appraisal really, I feel.

I'm pretty sure a court of law would agree with the plaintive if such a case was heard, not that I'm contemplating, or suggesting, that as a good idea, I just mean from the point of view of reasoned logic as to whether something is deemed reasonable or not.

If cash wasn't a problem, I'd buy a 49mm, just for curiosity's sake to see if it's more doable, but ah well it's not going to happen. Unless I can talk a company into giving me one to try, on the basis that it's crazy to sell both the 50.2mm and the 49mm crosses on the basis that they're both sold to fit the same uj, a glaring anomaly that exists on multiple supplier's product lists. Another anomaly is that one supplier lists the 49mm cross for the Guzzi Spada 900, a model that has never even existed 

I did run a sanding post around the inside the yoke orifices to get them to bare steel, but I didn't have the balls to try and open them out to loosen the holes any. I imagine proper lining up on a lathe would be the safe bet for that, but unless you have your own, it wouldn't be worth the expense. I perhaps should give it a try by hand though, on the other half of the now useless uj and now just as useless new unharmed cross, which if successful would give me the option of buying another cross and making up a spare uj (unlikely to need in the foreseeable) or more likely, scrap it and used to make tools for locking the lay shaft or pinion shaft. I remember reading somewhere, that can be useful for some job or another.

Cheers, Guzzi Grump Mart 

 

[izzug otom]

I'm 78 next week. Been doing this stuff for a long time. Been making mistakes (and corrections) long before internet was available to point me in the correct direction. Every project is a lesson. The mistakes are tuition. Education is seldom free. But is always valuable.

Well yes, of course mate, as we hopefully all have in many different areas of life, but come, come now, like me, you've surely cussed and cursed your luck with frustration at times along the way 

One of my early mistakes that I still easily recall today, is when I was 14 and managed to acquire an AJS 250 scrambler field bike. If I remember correctly, it had KTM front forks, and had an unusual and well worn flame red, yellow, and orange tank. I bought it as a none runner for £20. It'd fire up, then cut out. With a haynes manual for a different bike, I managed to suss how to strip and clean the carb, and it was up and running, and was such a cool field bike for riding around the loads of square miles of local quarries.

About a month later, it packed up again, this time no sign of life at all, and I didn't have a clue, I was at the level of 'is there fuel' and 'has it got a spark' and I could set the points and that was about it. I persevered for a couple of weeks, but had no joy, and was sad to see that bike go when I sold it on to another lad for the same I paid for it. Only for a week later he had it up and running, or rather his dad did, when he easily discovered a missing woodruff key. . . . That was such a cool bike for a 14yr old tearaway to be riding  , lost for the sake of a little piece of metal the shape of a half moon. . . . I suppose I did benefit from understanding what a woodruff key did 

[Mike Tashjian]

Having rebuilt a BMW driveshaft for my 04, I was not completely happy with the results.  I ended up with a used part for very little money that was in good condition.  I put the rebuilt on the shelf for a spare.  So if used parts can be sourced at reasonable prices they are a great way to keep your bike rolling.  One note on when the swing arm is installed I would use a bit of loctite on the bearing caps and paint mark a spot. The spot makes it easy to see if it moves.  I had a cap and bearing loosen and luckily I spotted it before it fell out. 

[n3303j]

Bit of controversy here. I pour the whole liter of Amsoil Manual Transmission and Transaxle lube into my transmissions at change. Some of it always migrates out at the output shaft and ends up in the boot. This lubricates the splines, needle bearings and the swingarm bore ahead of the carrier bearing. Haven't lost a universal yet. Haven't had to fight corrosion to remove a carrier bearing.

I think the key is that the bit of extra oil keeps out moisture in the universal and creeps into any opening at the universal spiders.

[izzug otom]

Having rebuilt a BMW driveshaft for my 04, I was not completely happy with the results.  I ended up with a used part for very little money that was in good condition.  I put the rebuilt on the shelf for a spare.  So if used parts can be sourced at reasonable prices they are a great way to keep your bike rolling.  One note on when the swing arm is installed I would use a bit of loctite on the bearing caps and paint mark a spot. The spot makes it easy to see if it moves.  I had a cap and bearing loosen and luckily I spotted it before it fell out.

Yes, I'd seen used uj's for around £75, which would be £100 cheaper than the new one I bought, and about £230 cheaper than buying a couple of crosses, failing at fitting them, and then buying a new uj, doh  , but I didn't fancy a used one, as I wanted to do my best to ensure the job would last a long time. If I ever felt I was doing some serious travelling and felt it was worth taking a spare, I'd buy a used one no problem, but I don't intend on parting with my bike, I have no desire for others, with the exception of maybe a 250ish off roader for something light and nippy around the city, and a bit of nostalgic green laning, but my Guzzi will be my main bike as long as I can keep it that way, so I'll hopefully use it enough to maybe have to service it next time it's required, and may as well make that as many miles away as possible, but if I can make it last another 28yrs, I'd perhaps be prepared to give it up, I'd be 90 

So yeah, I just thought buy new and be done with it. My original one would have been ok, but the state of things in there, I thought it would have suffered. The state was mostly cosmetic though, it felt fairly similar to the new one, and on inspecting the needle bearings and cups, after I'd dismantled them, they weren't in a bad state at all.

But I don't regret that decision, because it'd have been a concern when riding, particularly at high speed, the last time you want to have such concerns 

I wanted to do a thorough job, and didn't want to fk the refurb crosses up, but you have to take the rough with the smooth, and when it's back together it's going to be smooth. Which is the best way, you don't want the rough bit at the end 

I like the idea re the paint spot, thanks 

[izzug otom]

Bit of controversy here. I pour the whole liter of Amsoil Manual Transmission and Transaxle lube into my transmissions at change. Some of it always migrates out at the output shaft and ends up in the boot. This lubricates the splines, needle bearings and the swingarm bore ahead of the carrier bearing. Haven't lost a universal yet. Haven't had to fight corrosion to remove a carrier bearing.

I think the key is that the bit of extra oil keeps out moisture in the universal and creeps into any opening at the universal spiders.

Controversial, I imagine it to be so. Does the rear transmission even hold a litre, 250ml runs out the level hole, you can get 750ml above that, I'd have thought that'd be a struggle? I'm not surprised it finds its way into the swing arm through the vents though, but I've also heard of people having pressure build up issues and fitting pressure release valve replacement oil plugs to account for it. You've had no trouble with seals etc though?

If the trans oil is getting up to the uj and lubricating the actual needle bearings somehow, I'm not quite sure how it'd do that, but if it did, it'd mean that the oil would have flushed the grease out of the bearing. This is why many say it's not a great idea to soak them in oil before fitting, the only thing it can do by soaking it, would be for the oil to contaminate the grease, and at the same time, not really providing any benefit

I think I'll treat the trans as prescribed by Guzzi, and use a heavy duty tacky grease for internal protection.

I'm sure I've heard of a different set up on some Guzzi's, where oil travelled up the swing arm by design, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't achieved by intentionally overfilling the recommended oil level in the bevel drive.

Interesting though, thanks 

[n3303j]

Semantics, by transmission I mean the shifty thing up front ahead of the universal. It's outpot shaft isnt sealed and will pass some oil into the boot and wet the universal and splines.

I think of the thing at the rear wheel as the "final drive" from my BMW days.

[izzug otom]

Hi guys, sorry I've been AWOL of late. I haven't given up or owt though 

I've finally got the u j installed into the swing arm, and preparing for the rebuild.

I'll post about the u j install a little later, as it might be useful info for anyone caught out with the interference fit and no special tool.

However, I have a question for anyone with the experience that might recall this detail.

My concern is the swing arm bearing install. The drive side bearing doesn't seem to have gone in quite as far as the disk side. The difference in bearing seating depth is around 1mm.

The disk side has driven down to the full extent into sw arm's sleeved recess, but on the drive side I'm not so confident.

I cant recall there being a seating lip for the bearing to be seated on, in the drive side. I assumed it was driven fully onto what is the tube of the drive shaft housing. I'm not quite sure how accurate my thinking is though, I obviously managed to get the blind puller collet under the old bearing when pulling it. 

Driving it in was tight, but I kept it staight ok, and used the old external race, slightly ground down to drive it in, as advised by Charlie.

I got it in as far as I could, and the "ding" sound when tapped with a hammer, sounds like it's seated, but I'm a bit confused by that, as I see no specific lip or edge, that its seated home onto. And measuring with the depth rule of the vernier gauge, shows the disk side to be seated about 1mm deeper than the drive side.

Can any one reassure me that this is within the norm, or whether indeed, it should be driven fully onto the driveshaft housing in the recess?




I imagine there can't be much leeway on the tolerances here, as they'll be specific to the set-up and running etc.

It's probably not very easy to tell from the photo, hence asking for someone with enough experience in fitting them, so as to be familiar with whether this is in fact within the norm, or if indeed it needs to go a tad further. . . . I have given it a few good solid thwacks, and it doesn't want to move any further, and I havent got it in at a cocked angle, the depth measurement is identical at all points around the outer edge.

Of course, I'm a bit concerned about reinstalling the swing arm until I'm sure things are correct.

Thanks, Mart

[John A]

It looks like it may have some crud underneath it . If you heat the outside you should be able to take the swing arm and whack it smarty on a wood block. The inertia should make the race move enough to get a puller or pry bar underneath it and pull it out without damaging anything. Clean the seat and reinstall.

[izzug otom]

It looks like it may have some crud underneath it . If you heat the outside you should be able to take the swing arm and whack it smarty on a wood block. The inertia should make the race move enough to get a puller or pry bar underneath it and pull it out without damaging anything. Clean the seat and reinstall.

I could get a puller underneath as it is John. I could with the original old one I removed too. The thing is, when inspecting it closely with a dental mirror, I can see no crud obstructing the bearing race anywhere around the entire circumference.

I'll take another close look, and maybe do as you suggest, pull it again and refit, I'd applied a thin smear of grease to the race and housing, but I really don't think there's any obstruction to clear that's going to affect things (scratches head)

[Mike Tashjian]

Sounds like the race is in a happy place.  The bearings are adjustable so I would concentrate on making the swingarm centered.  Smooth and free with no play is what I aim for. Ride a few hundred miles and check, readjust if necessary.  Paint dot the caps to know if they loosen on you. 

[izzug otom]

Sounds like the race is in a happy place.  The bearings are adjustable so I would concentrate on making the swingarm centered.  Smooth and free with no play is what I aim for. Ride a few hundred miles and check, readjust if necessary.  Paint dot the caps to know if they loosen on you.

Thanks Mike, and John, yes it was happily seated, I pulled it back out a few mm had a good look around, found where the seat was (can't believe I didn't do that to start with, no actually that's not true, I can believe it  ), and drove it back home again.

I'm just going to fit the drive side wheel bearing, I wanted to clean off all the old grease and alloy corrosion first, so didn't get around to that during that crappy rainy spell. Then I'll have my first attempt at fitting the swing arm. I've read up on the best method, but if anyone wants to mention anything please feel free. Particularly if there are any pitfalls I might get into. I'm aware that care is needed not to cross the threads of the pivot pins, but any other snags or 'be sure to do this' kinda things, more than welcome.

And yes Mike "One note on when the swing arm is installed I would use a bit of loctite on the bearing caps and paint mark a spot." . . . I've made note of that, I'll definitely use a little loctite and the paint spot. I appreciate that tip, thanks 

I used loctite 641 medium strength as opposed to one of the high strength ones, on the disk side loose bearing. It's all cured and feels good, so I'll see how that goes. My thoughts were on getting it out next time around, and I'd read on motocross forums about the guys having badly worn wheel bearing housings, and with 641 got a full one or two seasons out of them. I used to do a fair amount of off roading in the way of motocross, scrambling, green laning and trials, and figured if it holds up to m/x bikes doing 60 feet jumps and pounding through ruts etc, it should manage on the guzzi on road. If not, I'll have to change the bearing sooner is all, but I'm confident it'll work just fine. 

[izzug otom]

A quick post about an easy and reliable UJ fitting tool replacement.

I'd been on the Moto Guzzi Club UK facebook page to see if there was anyone in the UK that might have the special tool for sale or loan with deposit paid.

In no time one nice chap showed me one he'd had made from nylon block, turned on a lathe. He was prepared to post but said I might be better off getting one 3d printed and provided s diagram and measurements.

I happened to have a friend who's into 3d printing so sent him a message. It wasn't his kind of thing but said leave it with him and his mate would be able to make one up for me, 3 days later, I was given this.




Fantastic. I phoned a local garage up and asked if I could use there hydraulic press. He said if you can get here in 30 mins. But I found the internal diameter was a tad too small for my uj, and thought ok, have at it with a dremel and a sanding post. ..... Wow it's tough stuff, and soon realised there was no way I could do that in time, so I fell back on plan B 

So plan B is one that anyone can easily put together. I'd found a couple of days before, that a 500ml Rubbing Alcohol bottles (Any pharmacy) are thick, sturdy, and near on the correct size.




It was a little sloppy in the swing rm, so I sleeved with another bottle. A bleach bottle or some other sturdy bottle.




The UJ was just slightly loose inside. This probably would have been fine, but I cut up a Lucozade bottle  and wrapped that around on the inside, and now it was a perfect snug fit, that held everything in line, but can be withdrawn with a firm pull.




I can't imagine anything working better than this now, and as opposed to the proper special tool, you can clearly see what the uj is doing as it's being pressed in, and it can't possibly fold up where the uj articulates. I don't like the idea of hammering it in, but the hydraulic press is smooth and easy to judge. The fit was a good tight fit, but the press made light work of it. The nice chap at the garage wouldn't accept any money from me, despite me making a strong effort to give him some.




So here's a couple of photos, so that anyone can copy, if of course, they have the necessary engineering skills to cut some plastic bottles and fit 'em in a hole ... Hahahaha 








Seriously though, very simple, infinitely adjustable, and it works a treat 

I realised after I'd got the uj fitted, that I'd had a msg on facebook from a Guzzi club member in the UK saying that he's an engineer and could make one up for me at work from the diagram sketch, and even had scrap blocks of nylon block so could make it and send it for the price of the postage. I'll say this, as someone who puts considerable effort into scrutinising the actions and agendas of the bolloctical and corporate ruling class, in a world that operates in the way ours does, the help and assistance that runs between so many people in the grass roots Guzzi world is truly heartwarming, not overwhelming, but enough to be a bit blown away all the same.

I'm well aware though, that this is only putting me in touch with the most natural state of the human condition, the natural desire is to help others to succeed around you, but this attribute is sadly lacking in so many areas of life. It's a bit of a sad indictment that to be in touch with what I feel is our natural way, is refreshing.

I'm fortunate to belong to a large social circle where I live and beyond that is very much along the same lines, but many of us have often said that it's a protective, fluffy bubble in a harsh prickly environment, where we can always call upon, and be called upon.

Of course the biker world in general, where a rider won't pass another rider who's broken down without stopping to check they're ok or need some assistance, well, unless if you're from the UK broken down at the side of the road, in Marseille. Where it doesn't matter how many 10's of bikes ride past, they will not stop. They'll stare at you, but they won't stop. I never felt so alone  . .  I was told afterwards that "Oh no, they don't like the English in Marseille". It's not as if Marseille is on the nearest coast to England, it's the very opposite end of France. Everywhere in between people seemed cool and friendly. How odd I thought.

[izzug otom]

What could possibly go wrong, right?





Oh ... err ... uhm. . . . I seem to be a bit stuck, although from reading up about it, it takes several people a few hours to get it hooked up the first time, and when well practiced it's a 30 second job.

I seem to have it going into the frame reasonably well, it appears that I'm hooked up to the output shaft, but it doesn't seem to be on very far. I'm not sure how far on they should go, but further than it is I believe.

I can't see anything that's obstructing the swing arm, and it's very difficult to see exactly what's going on re the uj and output shaft, as I have the rubber boot attached to the engine, and to manoeuvre the swing arm with one hand, the other fingering the drive shaft so as to rotate it, I can't pull the rubber boot back for visuals due to not having a very useful 3rd hand 

I'm presuming that the experienced will do this by feel as the uj mounts the output shaft, and the uj move into place with the frame.

So maybe the uj is just grabbing onto the end of the shaft, rather than being properly lined and fully sliding on.

I went in with it hanging down as low as possible, as per the common advice.

It's long after dark now, but it's a pleasant evening and I have an anglepoise lamp set up, so I think I'll pop out and have another try. This time use my old driveshaft and stick that on the end of the new drive shaft so I've got something to grip on to, to positively turn it and see if that helps any in getting it on. I didn't find it easy with my finger stuck up it's jacksy, with my finger in the sleeve.

The drive side and then the disk side, you can see I've got it going into place ok as far as this point. I can push the disk side up to it's hole just about but not the drive side so much






A transparent rubber boot, now that'd be a thing.

Please let me know if there's anything obvious I'm missing, but I imagine I'd have come across such a thing when reading up on it, and I probably need to get some more jiggling done.

Cheers, Mart

[Tom H]

It sounds like you have coupled two drive shafts together so you can turn the U joint. Good idea!

Now put the trans in gear, any gear so the output shaft does not turn.

You might take a vice grips pliers or the like and clamp it to the output shaft to hold the boot back so you can see the joint and shaft.

Get the swing arm into place. U joint not connected yet to output shaft . Now hook up the shock to help you work with the swing arm.

Now the fiddly part. Your going to have to take a screwdriver or the like to maneuver the U joint onto the output shaft WHILE working with the sing arm. You may need to hold the swing arm up or down and try to align the U joint.

Sometimes they just slide together without effort. Other time they and be a royal B*&%$. If you can get a helper, that would be great!

Good luck!
Tom

[izzug otom]

It sounds like you have coupled two drive shafts together so you can turn the U joint. Good idea!

Now put the trans in gear, any gear so the output shaft does not turn.

You might take a vice grips pliers or the like and clamp it to the output shaft to hold the boot back so you can see the joint and shaft.

Get the swing arm into place. U joint not connected yet to output shaft . Now hook up the shock to help you work with the swing arm.

Now the fiddly part. Your going to have to take a screwdriver or the like to maneuver the U joint onto the output shaft WHILE working with the sing arm. You may need to hold the swing arm up or down and try to align the U joint.

Sometimes they just slide together without effort. Other time they and be a royal B*&%$. If you can get a helper, that would be great!

Good luck!
Tom

I ended up feeling quite rough last night, something I ate I think, and ended up going to bed and slept through til earlier this evening, yuk!

Feeling better, I'm going to have another go now, after all, I left all the tools out there last night 

Ah, put it in gear, of course, that makes so much sense, but I hadn't thought of that, so if the uj is kind of snagging the output shaft, but not properly aligned, every time I can apply a small turn with my finger jammed in the drive shaft, it just turns the shaft with it, rather than slipping round into alignment. At least that's how I'm perceiving it, as I imagine you must be Tom. A good bit of obvious that I was missing there, thanks 

That is a really good description of a task that's done to a large extent by feel, and not easy to get across, a bit like trying to tell someone how to bend a note on the harmonica blues scale. Some people just describe how they do it in 30seconds, a little bit like 'if you do this it works easily', and on the one hand I get it, and can see that it can be a very easy job if you're well experienced, but the simple fact that so many people who lack experience find it incredibly difficult, means there are small details to avoid that make a big difference. Having said that, it does always give me the confidence that if someone can easily achieve something, then all I've got to do is learn the pitfalls that they may have lost touch with, forgotten after not having encountered them for so long due to years of solid experience of doing it right.

I do have the swing arm hooked up on the disk side suspension now, but when I was trying to get it on I was moving the angle up and down. I might just manage it with the additional drive shaft and it put into gear. If not, I should be able to get another pair of hands on it tmro. I still feel a little bit ugh, so I won't persist for very long tonight.

As for vice grips, I really must buy some . I may be able to improvise with a pair of surgical forceps and a zip tie though, I'll see.

I'm using a long lasting sticky white spray grease (WD40 brand) to coat the UJ, inside the drive shaft housing, and inside the swing arm bearing tube on the unblocked side, red 'n tacky grease on in the swing arm bearings, shaft/uj splines, and wheel drive teeth, red rubber grease where the rubber boot seals, and copper grease on pivot pin frame threads, leaving external threads clean for using loctite on the pivot pin caps. Hopefully this will be enough love to keep things sweet back there between any maintenance in the future.

Cheers, Mart