Tonti Clutch Drags like crazy and i think i know why - FIXED!!!

[kfz]

I'm sure you have double checked that you got the conical push rod seals out before installing new ones or the O ring setup.

Tom

Yes i  did, but for the first time i went for the o rings as per Dave Richardson.  But how can this cause such terrible lack of disengagement.  I cant seehow, but its the only thing i dont normally do.

Kev

[kfz]

Do you mean the clutch doesn’t release when you pull the lever? If that’s what you’re saying,  what I do is space the lever farther from the handle bar to give it more throw.  Works especially well on ram clutches so it will release as well as have freeplay. I have made my own spacers but someone here posted a link for them so I’ll post that if I find it.

Found it! https://www.righteousstuntmetal.com/products/rsc-perch-spacer

I initially made one trying to get a Ram clutch to release while giving it free play. I liked it well enough that I use it on  a regular clutch. I went to an adjustable lever for more fine tuning. It may help.

ive adjusted it way past the any sort of free play and it still doesnt disengage.  I douby adding travel will make any difference.  Plus its not getting to the causes,  They dont do this something is wrong.

[kfz]

Checked cup against a pristine one.  Not worn.  its not the Cup.

running out of ideas here.....

[cliffrod]

As mentioned, I would focus on springs and splines if you think other parts and dimensions are all in spec. 

The spring pressure has to be even to maintain balance for proper actuation. If a weak spring allows racking, plates may bind on splines.  If the springs compress too much as a group when you pull the lever (comparable to effect of cable stretching because of 1-2 unseen broken wires), you might as well not be pulling the lever.  The splines simply need to be smooth enough to facilitate movement between parts while engaged.  It doesn’t take much imperfection to impair that movement.

What the history of this problem- how did it develop?  Did clutch work properly in the past? What about onset of this clutch problem- slow, fast, ? It didn’t begin at time of changing rear engine seal.  Just curious.

[kfz]

As mentioned, I would focus on springs and splines if you think other parts and dimensions are all in spec. 

The spring pressure has to be even to maintain balance for proper actuation. If a weak spring allows racking, plates may bind on splines.  If the springs compress too much as a group when you pull the lever (comparable to effect of cable stretching because of 1-2 unseen broken wires), you might as well not be pulling the lever.  The splines simply need to be smooth enough to facilitate movement between parts while engaged.  It doesn’t take much imperfection to impair that movement.

What the history of this problem- how did it develop?  Did clutch work properly in the past? What about onset of this clutch problem- slow, fast, ? It didn’t begin at time of changing rear engine seal.  Just curious.

Springs are brand new.  I'll check them all again (ive checked them once) , but I think they are fine.  I can put the old ones back in.

Splines are 100%.  I will post pictures.

The clutch started dragging,  Over time i took up adjustment until non was left. I put in new mainseal, new clutch plates ,springs and pushrod.  repeat this step twice with differnet combination of plates.  clutch drags worse than ever.  No adjustment works.

Kev

Kev

[Tom H]

You mentioned you went with the O rings for the push rod. You did read the instructions on how to install them right?

With the above said.

You say that the bike was fine, then it started to get the clutch drag problem. You adjusted all the slack out of the cable and it would still drag.

I don't see how this could be missed, but the clutch lever on the back of the trans is not frozen is it?

Tom

[John Croucher]

The lever is the determining factor on how far the push rod goes in.  Have you changed the lever or is the bushing worn or lever bent in on the lever and not allowing the cable to pull the correct distance?

I have an adjustable clutch lever.  If I adjust the lever to be closer to the grip, The clutch will not fully disengage.  If I adjust the cable to allow the clutch to fully disengage, the clutch slips.  I cannot use the setting on the lever that places closest to the grip. 

Adjust the three points until the clutch slips under power and them back the adjustment back in.

[kfz]

The lever is the determining factor on how far the push rod goes in.  Have you changed the lever or is the bushing worn or lever bent in on the lever and not allowing the cable to pull the correct distance?

I have an adjustable clutch lever.  If I adjust the lever to be closer to the grip, The clutch will not fully disengage.  If I adjust the cable to allow the clutch to fully disengage, the clutch slips.  I cannot use the setting on the lever that places closest to the grip. 

Adjust the three points until the clutch slips under power and them back the adjustment back in.

No adjustment of the clutch will cause it to slip.  Even winding it it on all three adjusters and then pulling the lever it doesnt slip. 

[kfz]

I think this is the last query response.  No noticable wars on Flywheel, pressure plate, Intermediate plate or hub

[kfz]

I'll offer a reward for the guzzisti that gets it right and solves this....

Free of charge I'll lend to the bike to anyone for the first 2 weeks of June (TT week)  or August if you prefer (classic TT).

I'll meet you at Manchester airport (40 mins from the boat).  Bring your lid and your gear. 

Kev

[tris]

Some random thoughts
1) Is the pivot point on the lever or the point it pivots about on the casing worn
2) Is the lever on the box bent
3) Is the lever hitting anything and preventing full movement
4) Is the pocket where the push rod fits worn

Good luck, a tricky problem

[kfz]

Some random thoughts
1) Is the pivot point on the lever or the point it pivots about on the casing worn
2) Is the lever on the box bent
3) Is the lever hitting anything and preventing full movement
4) Is the pocket where the push rod fits worn

Good luck, a tricky problem

Het Tris,

1. Nope its fine.  Even the pin isnt seized.
2. I dont think so, Travle is normal at the bars,  But i can easily check it against another.
3. I dont think so,  but bike is apart now.
4. In the lever, Good point I'll check.

Ta
Kev

[John A]

Is the pushrod perfectly straight? Sometimes it doesn’t want to go in its pocket and can be bent just enough so it flexes and will not compress the springs quite enough.

[Tom H]

Maybe we should start over with what happened when the issue came about.

The clutch had been working fine. Then one day the clutch started dragging. You adjusted the slack out of the cable. Did the cable get excessive slack at the hand lever? Or was it still as you normally adjust it?

I believe you also tried the other adjustments for the cable. I would think you took out ALL of the slack and it was still dragging.

Has the hand lever always had the same amount of travel, as in you could always pull the lever to the hand grip? Or is it stopping short of the hand grip?

I would think of two things that would cause clutch drag if the hand lever still has the same range of travel. The throw out bearing has gone bad causing excessive free play in the cable, but you would notice that. Or a warped intermediate plate. But you showed us that and it does look flat.

Another thing that could be the issue is that the trans lever is hitting the trans when you pull the hand lever, or hitting the end of the cable. Though the hitting the cable is not likely.

I think at this point I would install the clutch assembly. MAKING SURE that the dimple on the pressure plate lines up with the arrow on the flywheel.

Mount the trans to the engine with it's fasteners. Make sure the throw out bearing is good. Make sure the clutch push rod is seating into the hole in the cup (if the end plunger/outer body is sitting well out, like 5 or so mm, your not in the cup). Note where the plunger/outer body is in relation to it's hole, should be just about level. Hook up the clutch cable and work the hand lever to make sure it is not hitting the trans cover.

Provided all is well so far. I would try putting the trans in gear, confirm it's in gear. Taking a vice grips or the like, protect the output shaft of the trans with something and clamp the vice grips to it to use as a handle. Pull clutch hand lever and see if you can turn the output shaft WITHOUT the engine turning. Adjust cable as needed to allow the shaft to turn. You may need to go tighter than you would normally adjust the cable at to get the shaft to turn by hand.

If the shaft turns, sounds like your ready to assemble the bike. If not.....

Could your crank shaft be moving forward and back throwing off your cable adjustment like the V7II crank issue? I can not think of anything in the trans that would cause the clutch to drag.

One last and not very likely thing. If the splined input hub is not fully seated into the trans, it would be hitting the pressure plate. But if it was, you would more likely get the clutch to not fully engage.

Hope this helps a bit,
Yom

[Tom H]

I should have already brought this up. If your clutch cable is stretching  when you pull the hand lever, that could cause clutch drag. But if you have made adjustments to remove all the slack, the cable would just keep stretching no matter how many times you adjust it until it fails.

That's about all I got,
Tom

[jrt]

I should have already brought this up. If your clutch cable is stretching  when you pull the hand lever, that could cause clutch drag. But if you have made adjustments to remove all the slack, the cable would just keep stretching no matter how many times you adjust it until it fails.

That's about all I got,
Tom

Wasn't there a batch of crappy clutch cables a couple years ago that did just that?  The outer sheath stretched and compressed?  Or am I making stuff up...again?

[lucian]

Before assembling the clutch ensure that all of the plates fit and slide freely in the flywheel splines, stack the plates in the flywheel and ensure that the clutch hub also slides freely through the plates centers before proceeding. I have had a brand new plate miss machined and bind in the assembly.  If assembling the clutch with motor still in crabbed frame make sure to tighten the end of each spring coil slightly with a pair of pliers so they lock onto the short raised nubs on the keeper plate. Once assembled and bolted up to the trans always check the operation before going any further. I have found a welders vise clamp fits the end of the clutch arm nicely and can be opened up to clamp to a convenient spot to then clamped to hold the arm in. Then, using the drive shaft with some vise grips ,check that the clutch is indeed releasing before further assembly.










 

[80CX100]

TLDR; Is this possibly one of those times that with different plate thicknesses & pushrod lengths you need to put a ball bearing in to get it to work? fwiw idk

Apologies if it was already mentioned or discussed

 

[kfz]

TLDR; Is this possibly one of those times that with different plate thicknesses & pushrod lengths you need to put a ball bearing in to get it to work? fwiw idk

Apologies if it was already mentioned or discussed

 

np.  Tried it,  made it worse.

[kfz]

Before assembling the clutch ensure that all of the plates fit and slide freely in the flywheel splines, stack the plates in the flywheel and ensure that the clutch hub also slides freely through the plates centers before proceeding. I have had a brand new plate miss machined and bind in the assembly.  If assembling the clutch with motor still in crabbed frame make sure to tighten the end of each spring coil slightly with a pair of pliers so they lock onto the short raised nubs on the keeper plate. Once assembled and bolted up to the trans always check the operation before going any further. I have found a welders vise clamp fits the end of the clutch arm nicely and can be opened up to clamp to a convenient spot to then clamped to hold the arm in. Then, using the drive shaft with some vise grips ,check that the clutch is indeed releasing before further assembly.

Lucia,

Yes this is the plan , i need to carefully reassemble it one step at a time, checking everything.

[cliffrod]

I should have already brought this up. If your clutch cable is stretching  when you pull the hand lever, that could cause clutch drag. But if you have made adjustments to remove all the slack, the cable would just keep stretching no matter how many times you adjust it until it fails.

That's about all I got,
Tom

Wasn't there a batch of crappy clutch cables a couple years ago that did just that?  The outer sheath stretched and compressed?  Or am I making stuff up...again?

This is why I mentioned possible cable issues in my suggestions.  4 shoe brakes are extremely sensitive to imbalance caused by cable stretch/sheath compression.  Even one broken wire in one cable can seriously impair the function of the entire brake. 

Sounds like the clutch cable was replaced in this situation, so may not be the problem here. 

[kfz]

This is why I mentioned possible cable issues in my suggestions.  4 shoe brakes are extremely sensitive to imbalance caused by cable stretch/sheath compression.  Even one broken wire in one cable can seriously impair the function of the entire brake. 

Sounds like the clutch cable was replaced in this situation, so may not be the problem here.

Tried multiple cables including a new one.  Exactly the same.  Still feels horrible.

[pressureangle]

Back to the OP- you replaced the rear main seal. Why? How many miles are on the engine? Investigate the crankshaft end play; on old automotive stuff, some engines tend to idle with the crank to the rear of the thrust bearing which means you have to push them to the front to disengage the clutch which can take up a significant amount of pedal travel if it's severely worn. Grasping at straws here.

[Offcamber1]

Could your crank shaft be moving forward and back throwing off your cable adjustment like the V7II crank issue? I can not think of anything in the trans that would cause the clutch to drag.

Worn Thrust Washer on Crankshaft.

[jacksonracingcomau]

Lucia,

Yes this is the plan , i need to carefully reassemble it one step at a time, checking everything.

Now that sir is an excellent decision, not before time
I think you’ll find the answer is in this thread, I’ll stick by my original thought in my last post #27
Springs are either misplaced or deformed (perhaps by someone trying to make them stay in vertical pressure plate,?)
Of course, the end float answer above is possible too, crankshaft could even be broken, I’ve seen it, bike still ran too, clutch was a bit howsyerfather in that one. Otherwise it’s pretty simple stuff

[tris]

It did occur to me that given that its not a brand new bike, there might be wear in multiple places that added together result in the issue you're experiencing

Which means that from an assembly position there's nothing for you to identify easily

[kfz]

It did occur to me that given that its not a brand new bike, there might be wear in multiple places that added together result in the issue you're experiencing

Which means that from an assembly position there's nothing for you to identify easily

Its on the to do list,  Try and make some progress soon as i can. I think i posted a pic of the Pressure plate as it was ast disembled and its looks corretly positoned. its certinaly no unvenly postioned.   I'll dig it out below....

[Offcamber1]

check the runout on the crankshaft by gently prying it back and forth.  I dumped all my Guzzi manuals when I sold my last Lario so I am not sure what the spec is, but surely not more than a few thousanths...

You've checked everything else, if you can pry the flywheel back and forth and you can see it move and hear it go "thunk" then you've likely found your problem.

[MattP]

C ould be the nut loose on crank timing gear.pull timing cover, easy to elemate that, it wouldgive crank the end play that may be the prablem. Hope it is that simple.

[Mr Revhead]

Sureflex.  But tried another set as well and they are exctly the same.

The plunger was well recessed so i popped a 3mm Ball in there.  it brought the plunger back up fluch with the case but the clutch was actually worse.

That's your problem!
I've had exactly this issue on an Sport 1100 I bought. Previous owner couldn't get the clutch to work so put a 3mm ball in there.
He did about 30kms like thar before I bought it and it jammed in gear on my first ride.

Take the 3mm ball out. The issue will be clutch adjustment with the sureflex plates.

The sureflex plates are crap, they expand as they warm so you need to adjust it slightly tight when cold. As it warms up the adjustment improves.
Do not be tempted to adjust when hot, then when cold it's way to tight and drags.