Tonti Clutch Drags like crazy and i think i know why - FIXED!!!

[kfz]

That's your problem!
I've had exactly this issue on an Sport 1100 I bought. Previous owner couldn't get the clutch to work so put a 3mm ball in there.
He did about 30kms like thar before I bought it and it jammed in gear on my first ride.

Take the 3mm ball out. The issue will be clutch adjustment with the sureflex plates.

The sureflex plates are crap, they expand as they warm so you need to adjust it slightly tight when cold. As it warms up the adjustment improves.
Do not be tempted to adjust when hot, then when cold it's way to tight and drags.

No its not.  I tried and tried to adjust it out,  believe me.  Wound the clutch on full to get it to disenengage.  Its not that, something wrong,  it doesnt even feel right.

[kfz]

C ould be the nut loose on crank timing gear.pull timing cover, easy to elemate that, it wouldgive crank the end play that may be the prablem. Hope it is that simple.

There is some discenrable movement.  Hear it more then see it. 

[Mr Revhead]

No its not.  I tried and tried to adjust it out,  believe me.  Wound the clutch on full to get it to disenengage.  Its not that, something wrong,  it doesnt even feel right.

Yep, that's exactly what I had.
Need to slacken the cable at handle, where it bolts to gear box and set it at clutch, adjust so its just touching. The  gearbox then handle.
Thats how you get the Surflex plates to work

[jacksonracingcomau]

The ring gear fits on back to front
Creates this scenario apparently, I read it on here, spose it’s just extra preload on springs?

[kfz]

Still refused to be solved this issue.  Ive pretty much had enough now. 

The problem must be with the actuation or the disengagement.  I can  mock up the disenagement by using the centre tool and compress the pressure pate and test for free play.

I can see that i have a problem with consistent free play. One side of the flywheel has approx 1-1.5mm of free play in the plates  (this sounds a but right to me judging by the percieved movment of the arm/rod)  but the other side shows Zero Free play.  I.e. even when the plate is fully compressed I have NO free play on the frictions. 

The problem is the pressure plate is not compressing evenly. As you can see in the pictures below  the plate has about 1.5mm of run out (18.85mm vs 20.24) measure from the ring gear flange on the flywheel.








Ok, ive followed this through,  First suspect the springs are not loating.  Ive tried 2 sets of springs (old and new),  ive also tested the springs that they locate in the pressure plate ans flywheel.  Ive even tried glueing the spring into thr flywheel so i know 100% that they are located and straight!   No difference.

What also happing is that the surflex plates at 8.4mm thickness and not 8.00mm as per psec,  this is losing my nearly a 1mm of free play.  The combination of the plates and runout if meaning i am not getting free play in the clutch!!!!

QUESTIONS.

1.  Why do i have 1.5mm of runnout the pressure plates and does this actually matter is it normal.
2.  do the oversize plates matter?

Kev

[Frenchfrog]

Bingo...the plate thickness. there is a slightly longer pushrod available that goes with the RAM single plate  clutch.That might well cure your problem.

[jacksonracingcomau]

Still refused to be solved this issue.  Ive pretty much had enough now. 

The problem must be with the actuation or the disengagement.  I can  mock up the disenagement by using the centre tool and compress the pressure pate and test for free play.

I can see that i have a problem with consistent free play. One side of the flywheel has approx 1-1.5mm of free play in the plates  (this sounds a but right to me judging by the percieved movment of the arm/rod)  but the other side shows Zero Free play.  I.e. even when the plate is fully compressed I have NO free play on the frictions. 

The problem is the pressure plate is not compressing evenly. As you can see in the pictures below  the plate has about 1.5mm of run out (18.85mm vs 20.24) measure from the ring gear flange on the flywheel.








Ok, ive followed this through,  First suspect the springs are not loating.  Ive tried 2 sets of springs (old and new),  ive also tested the springs that they locate in the pressure plate ans flywheel.  Ive even tried glueing the spring into thr flywheel so i know 100% that they are located and straight!   No difference.

What also happing is that the surflex plates at 8.4mm thickness and not 8.00mm as per psec,  this is losing my nearly a 1mm of free play.  The combination of the plates and runout if meaning i am not getting free play in the clutch!!!!

QUESTIONS.

1.  Why do i have 1.5mm of runnout the pressure plates and does this actually matter is it normal.
2.  do the oversize plates matter?

Kev

1/ probably spring pressure variation but inadmissible, so yes
2/ surmountable, see.earlier posta

[kfz]

Bingo...the plate thickness. there is a slightly longer pushrod available that goes with the RAM single plate  clutch.That might well cure your problem.

I dont think the longer rod will help,  im tightening up the clutch tool right up so the pressure plate is at full travel and the springs are coil bound.

Its them fecking plates!  But I changed the plates it made it worse.  Crazy.

[kfz]

1/ probably spring pressure variation but inadmissible, so yes
2/ surmountable, see.earlier posta

No i dont think so the plate is hard back on the tool.  The springs are coil bound.

Again.  Same. 

[wirespokes]

Let's see if I understand the problem: The pressure plate doesn't release evenly? One side compresses the springs, the other does not?

If that is the case, it must be hanging up on the splines somewhere. I can't imagine a weak or strong spring having such a radical effect.

I've heard of new plates having sharp edges from being stamped out, which then grab the spline. I've had to carefully de-bur those edges to ensure smooth operation.

But that doesn't explain the original problem how a normally operating clutch gradually started dragging.

One of the clutches I've done (seems all of the Guzzis I've had over the last seven years have needed clutch work for one reason or another - usually not because of worn friction material) the flywheel splines were notched. Since I couldn't find a replacement flywheel at the time I spent many hours scraping the teeth eliminating the notches. What a miserable job! When I was done they weren't perfect, but weren't notchy anymore. The clutch has worked perfectly ever since.

I had the same problem with the sureflex plates - grabby to the point of being hard on the drive train.

Anyway, it seems like you're homing in on the source of the problem. It could be (and probably is considering the complexity) one of those issues with multiple problems. There's a truth that comes to mind - the more difficult the problem, the more individual things that need to be resolved and the more steps there are to its resolution. What I'm saying is that the original issue may have been due to parts that have now been replaced, and the current issue could be something entirely different.

I do know that once solved, you'll be floating on air for days. :-)

[Tom H]

As mentioned. If your pressure plate is not being depressed evenly. Pull the flywheel so you can lay it on a table with the springs glued into the flywheel as you stated you have done.

Then just set the pressure plate "properly aligned" with the arrow on the flywheel and check the depth all the way around. Then maybe set a weight on the alignment tool or a large socket and see what you get.

You may also need to measure the spring height while glued in the flywheel (BTW: I glue the springs to the flywheel while the flywheel is flat on a bench). You may also want to NOT properly align the pressure plate. Find a tooth that makes the pressure plate sit on the springs between the spring holes.

Depending on what your are using for an alignment tool. It may not have a large enough center hole to clear the raised area on the pressure plate the the cup fits into. That could tilt the pressure plate a few MM to one side.

This is one puzzling issue. If this was your FIRST clutch job, very easy to say operator error. But you stated you have done, forgot the term you used, but a number of them with out problems.

Keep us informed!!!
Tom

[jrt]

You may also need to measure the spring height while glued in the flywheel (BTW: I glue the springs to the flywheel while the flywheel is flat on a bench). You may also want to NOT properly align the pressure plate. Find a tooth that makes the pressure plate sit on the springs between the spring holes.

I like that idea and I'm gonna steal it.  Thanks Tom.

Haven't read through the whole thread, but I'm guessing that the obvious 'warped intermediate plate' isn't an issue (no need to respond to that).   
Have you tried a different set of clutch plates?  At this stage...might be worth it. 

[Tom H]

For the record. When I say glue the springs, I don't mean JB Weld or the like. Use something removable, Permatex #2, silicone adhesive sealant, rubber trim glue.

Tom

[kfz]

For the record. When I say glue the springs, I don't mean JB Weld or the like. Use something removable, Permatex #2, silicone adhesive sealant, rubber trim glue.

Tom

Tom, dont worry , i know what your meant.  Just intentionally locate the springs.

[kfz]

CRACKED IT!!!

I think its working,  haven't been able to ride the bike yet but Ive run it up on the drive and its selecting gear and drag has stopped.  Long story short i followed lucian's advice  fitted the springs into the pressure plate not the flywheel (I'll do this every time now).  I also used the welding moleys on the lever to test it.  Worked a treat!!!

Im 99% sure the problem was caused by the oversize surflex frictions that measure 8.4mm,  which is 0.4mm over size. Times that by 2, i'm losing 0.8mm free play.

Massive thankyou to everyone for the encouragement to keep plodding away.  Hopefully this thread will serve as warning for anyone else,  dont assume new parts are good.

Kev

[pehayes]

Im 99% sure the problem was caused by the oversize surflex frictions that measure 8.4mm,  which is 0.4mm over size. Times that by 2, i'm losing 0.8mm free play.

Kev:  It is worse than you think.  Yes,  you have inadvertently increased the total thickness of your clutch pack by 0.8mm.  But the lever on the back of the transmission is a 'Class-II' lever.  The position of the pivot fulcrum and the actuating screw mean that the lever system has perhaps 5:1 or 6:1 ratio of mechanical advantage at the outboard forked end.  If you alter the length of the throwout system by 0.8mm, it will present itself as nearly 5mm of position change at the outboard fork end of the transmission lever.  And consequently a similar large amount at the hand lever.  That screw adjuster in the transmission lever is thus VERY sensitive.  Half a turn is a lot!

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[kfz]

Kev:  It is worse than you think.  Yes,  you have inadvertently increased the total thickness of your clutch pack by 0.8mm.  But the lever on the back of the transmission is a 'Class-II' lever.  The position of the pivot fulcrum and the actuating screw mean that the lever system has perhaps 5:1 or 6:1 ratio of mechanical advantage at the outboard forked end.  If you alter the length of the throwout system by 0.8mm, it will present itself as nearly 5mm of position change at the outboard fork end of the transmission lever.  And consequently a similar large amount at the hand lever.  That screw adjuster in the transmission lever is thus VERY sensitive.  Half a turn is a lot!

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

The whole thing felt *wrong*. 

[wirespokes]

I've even had 'normal' plates be slightly oversize resulting in clutch drag - but only for the first few miles or first ride. It was many years ago, so don't recall the details, but I may have torn it back apart to find what I'd done wrong. At any rate, I decided to ride it and see if that didn't fix it, which it did.

[lazlokovacs]

result!!!!!

fingers crossed you've got it sorted

I've suffered some surfex woes in the past, been following this thread with interest.

[John A]

This thread is why I use a spacer on the clutch lever perch. It’s only drawback is you have to use a split perch to do it that way. It gives the hand lever enough travel to operate and have free play.