Author Topic: Thinking twice about bigger main jets  (Read 1623 times)

Offline moto

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 955
  • Potrebbe andare peggio, potrebbe piovere!
  • Location: Madison, WI
Thinking twice about bigger main jets
« on: November 09, 2023, 08:58:13 PM »
A friend bought a T3 a while back that had been fitted with size 142 main jets, which the PO thought should be appropriate given the pod filters and Bub exhausts. (It was otherwise jetted as stock, and the motor had been properly rebuilt.) Since the bike smelled strongly of unburned gas when it went down the road, different sized main jets seemed worth a try. Both the stock 120s and larger 125s were considered. The 125s went in and the bike was magically transformed. It no longer required 4000 rpm to stop stumbling, and gas mileage went up from about 35 to well over 40 on a long test run.

My own T3 also came to me with 142 main jets, which I replaced over time with other sizes, ending up with stock 120s. My motor has good compression (above 170) and runs very well.

Seeing my friend's success with 125s I decided to try those again on my own T3. I remembered someone here citing Dave Richardson's recommendation for a 10% increase in jetting when using the K&N pods I have (and I found it on page 7-29 of my copy). My current K&N's are pretty new, so I figure they flow as well as they can.

By the way, I have English Feked stainless mufflers, with solid stainless baffles. I don't think they are likely to have a measurable effect on the T3 motor, given its mild tune.

Going from a 120 to a 125 jet is about an 8.5 percent increase in area and flow [(125/)120)^2 ~= 1.085], which is close to Dave's recommended 10 percent.

My seat-of-the-pants impression of the effect of going to 125s was disappointing. The bike seemed less responsive. But since people's seats are calibrated differently I decided to go the full science route in search of actual evidence.

My iPhone (and probably your phone too) has a built-in accelerometer, mostly to tell it which end is up. I calibrated mine on a kitchen table, observing that it produces the correct readings of 1 g straight down, and 0 g side-to-side. (The Bosch model used is listed in the Settings menu.) I used an app called Physics Toolbox Suite to record linear acceleration in meters per second-squared, in the forward-rearward axis of movement.

I have a test facility called the University of Wisconsin-Madison just down the street, with long, level stretches of road beside the soccer fields. My test procedure was to accelerate full-throttle in first gear from about 15 mph to 6000 rpm, recording the data. This seemed appropriate since the main jets should be the only carburetor settings influencing full-throttle acceleration (assuming the gap at the top of the aerator is big enough). 6000 rpm in first is a bit over 40 mph, so there wasn't too much to worry about in terms of law enforcement.

I did six runs with the 120 jets and seven with the 125s. Here are plots from the first runs of each series:


 


The plot on the left is a run with the 120 jets; 125s are on the right. A large amount of noise in the accelerometer output was smoothed away with a 60-period (0.6 second) moving average, shown by the overlaid dark lines. All of the #120 runs exceeded 4m/s^2, while none of the #125 runs did so.* The performance difference was very noticeable in the full-throttle runs: the 125s felt rough and stumbling compared to the smooth 120s. I began to think something was going wrong with my motor during the 125 runs, and was surprised that the graphs were all similar when I got home.

Sometimes carburetor problems really are carburetor problems, often self-inflicted. Guzzi T3s are free-revving, fast-for-their-time motorcycles capable of 115 mph. If you have one that can't get beyond 90, maybe your main jets are too big.

That said, there are many other things to think about with respect to performance in general and carbs in particular.
I hope my test results** and the reported results with my friend's T3 encourage someone else to think twice about main jets.

------------------------------

*A single #120 run was dropped because it showed much less acceleration than any other graph, due to rider error I suppose.

**The data collection and graphing were all done on my iPhone using the free Physics Toolbox Suite and the free Apple Numbers app. Both apps have capricious interfaces, to put it politely. (Really, they are very frustrating.) The Physics Toolbox Suite is also on Android. I don't know of an Android spreadsheet and graphing program like Numbers. I can provide all my data and graphs, and even encouragement and help.
850 T-3
Griso 1100 corretto
2023 Royal Enfield Classic 350
Italjet Buccaneer 250 (ex-SSR) -- now sold
credit for 2500+ postings lost in the database meltdown of Feb 9, 2020

Offline Tkelly

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 1418
Re: Thinking twice about bigger main jets
« Reply #1 on: November 09, 2023, 09:19:01 PM »
So which are you going with?

Offline moto

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 955
  • Potrebbe andare peggio, potrebbe piovere!
  • Location: Madison, WI
Re: Thinking twice about bigger main jets
« Reply #2 on: November 09, 2023, 09:25:34 PM »
So which are you going with?

Um, the fast, better-feeling one, the 120.
850 T-3
Griso 1100 corretto
2023 Royal Enfield Classic 350
Italjet Buccaneer 250 (ex-SSR) -- now sold
credit for 2500+ postings lost in the database meltdown of Feb 9, 2020

Offline Chuck in Indiana

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 29625
Re: Thinking twice about bigger main jets
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2023, 05:49:29 AM »
Attaboy, Moto.. :thumb:
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
87 AeroLario
95 Skorpion tour
25 Triumph Speed 900
 "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."
Albert Einstein

Offline chuck peterson

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 5340
  • Location: New Haven CT
Re: Thinking twice about bigger main jets
« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2023, 06:29:28 AM »
ummmmmmmm, science. 👍

My impression from the charts is the 125 gives a quicker jump from zero (acceleration) at the expense of top speed but I know zip about dyno tuning
"I'd like to thank all my friends who have kept my Guzzi's going, but mostly...TOMB."
150k on Verts
750 Nevada
400f
R5 Yammie
BV250
4x 1976 Moto Demm Smily,, now 5, oops now 6, oops now 7
1980 SP1000 in little bits and pieces

Offline PeteS

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3411
Re: Thinking twice about bigger main jets
« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2023, 06:50:18 AM »
Interesting. I know there is a sweet spot at max where going larger or smaller will reduce performance. I played with main jets on the dragstrip after Raceco did some headwork on my 850 LeMans. This 30 years ago long before smart phones.
Stock main was a 135. I ended up with a 143. Trap speed went from 93mph to 101mph and RPM in fifth went from barely over 7000 to easily over 8000. I have observed 8300 with more on tap. Besides the flowed head it got stronger valve springs and have yet to float the valves at that RPM even after the occasional missed shifts.

Pete

Offline John Croucher

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 695
Re: Thinking twice about bigger main jets
« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2023, 08:41:59 AM »
Remove both main jets and ride the bike.  Probably will not be able to tell they are removed.  The idle and needle jet circuits control most of the fuel flow.  The main jet controls how much fuel these two circuits get.

Offline moto

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 955
  • Potrebbe andare peggio, potrebbe piovere!
  • Location: Madison, WI
Re: Thinking twice about bigger main jets
« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2023, 10:05:12 AM »
Remove both main jets and ride the bike.  Probably will not be able to tell they are removed.  The idle and needle jet circuits control most of the fuel flow.  The main jet controls how much fuel these two circuits get.

This is true enough for riding at less than about 3/4 throttle. Near full throttle, though, the needle rises to a point where the annular area between it and the aperture at the top of the atomizer is greater than the area of the opening of the main jet. Beyond that point the main jet, way down in the float bowl, governs the mixture. (There is a handy formula in the Dellorto tuning manual that is intended for checking that this area is larger than than the main jet; otherwise main jets can't tune the upper end.)

I ride a lot with the throttle wide open heading into curves in the country roads. It is one of the joys having only a moderate amount of horsepower. So main jet tuning matters a lot for me.

I am a bit mystified by the behavior of my friend's T3 with the #142 jets. They seemed to be having a damaging effect at lower throttle openings, where this shouldn't happen. More investigation may be in order, when it's warmer.

Your point is a good one, though, for those having problems below 3/4 throttle. I seem to remember you have said you tried removing the mains in the past.

Moto
850 T-3
Griso 1100 corretto
2023 Royal Enfield Classic 350
Italjet Buccaneer 250 (ex-SSR) -- now sold
credit for 2500+ postings lost in the database meltdown of Feb 9, 2020

Offline moto

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 955
  • Potrebbe andare peggio, potrebbe piovere!
  • Location: Madison, WI
Re: Thinking twice about bigger main jets
« Reply #8 on: November 10, 2023, 10:30:49 AM »
ummmmmmmm, science. 👍

My impression from the charts is the 125 gives a quicker jump from zero (acceleration) at the expense of top speed but I know zip about dyno tuning

The shape of these charts varied a lot from run to run, seemingly because my right wrist has a mind of its own, like the fingers of a pianist. A lifetime of riding has taught it to modulate the throttle opening without my conscious intervention, so I had trouble getting a constant full-throttle application from it!

I was reduced to interpreting only a single feature of the graphs -- whether they exceeded 4m/s^2, the bottom of the two reference lines, at any point. All the (valid) 120s did this, but none of the 125s. This fact is my evidence.

A drag strip would be better for such tests, and a dynamometer best of all. Less chance of an old couple wandering across the road with a couple of Airedales Irish Setters (?!) on leashes. This happened during my tests. Probably my neighbors. I expect some of them think of me the way Burt Munro's did in the movie.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2023, 11:31:57 AM by moto »
850 T-3
Griso 1100 corretto
2023 Royal Enfield Classic 350
Italjet Buccaneer 250 (ex-SSR) -- now sold
credit for 2500+ postings lost in the database meltdown of Feb 9, 2020

Offline PeteS

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3411
Re: Thinking twice about bigger main jets
« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2023, 01:21:00 PM »
Remove both main jets and ride the bike.  Probably will not be able to tell they are removed.  The idle and needle jet circuits control most of the fuel flow.  The main jet controls how much fuel these two circuits get.

Main jets are all about WFO. Usually you determine those first then work back to partial throttle to idle.

Pete

***Wildguzzi Official Logo High Quality 5 Color Window Decals Back In Stock***
Shipping in USA Only. Awesome quality. Back by popular demand. All proceeds go back into the forum.
Best quality vinyl available today. Easy application.
Advertise Here
 

20 Ounce Stainless Steel Double Insulated Tumbler
Buy a quality tumbler and support the forum at the same time!
Better than a YETI! BPA and Lead free.
Advertise Here