Norge SI & Starter relay location?

[brider]

I know, "search" is your friend, but in this case I have not run across the previous thread that shows a Norge wiring diagram that SHOWS the starter relay itself. I'm not a wiring genius, but my Cal 2 wiring diagram clearly shows the starter relay and my years-old sketching shows where I severed the power from the fuse (brown wire) to the relay and replaced it with a fused wire directly from the battery. I ASSUME this is all that is needed for the Norge SI fix? And before I begin pulling plastic panels, is the Norge starter relay hidden behind the starter cover?

Naturally, I waited until you can see your breath in the garage before investigating this known problem.

[Huzo]

I did the SI fix on my Norge in 2016 or ‘17.
It failed out the front of the Collosseum in Rome of all places…! But anyway, I think from memory it’s the yellow wire that you disconnect at the plug, then run the heavy gauge fused wire from the battery.
That’ll need confirmation though.

[brider]

Thanks, Huzo, I think I remember one of your posts (of the bazillion on this subject) that broke down the solution to that single jumper wire from the batt (+) to the relay (yellow wire?).

I've only had the bike since August and haven't had cause to pull side panels yet, so to get the starter cover off, it looks like I need to pull off the shifter, then the large silver sculpted structural plate that mounts both sets of footpegs? Anything else? Seems odd that footpegs would be mounted to a sidepanel that has to be removed, but I've never owned a CARC before....

[Huzo]

Thanks, Huzo, I think I remember one of your posts (of the bazillion on this subject) that broke down the solution to that single jumper wire from the batt (+) to the relay (yellow wire?).

I've only had the bike since August and haven't had cause to pull side panels yet, so to get the starter cover off, it looks like I need to pull off the shifter, then the large silver sculpted structural plate that mounts both sets of footpegs? Anything else? Seems odd that footpegs would be mounted to a sidepanel that has to be removed, but I've never owned a CARC before....

The plastic cover over the starter comes off by the removal of the three small fixing bolts, but it does not need to come off for the startus fix.
It’s a matter of finding the yellow (?) wire that feeds the terminal block on the right side, remove that wire and seal it off.
Then feed the good sized fused wire into there. It’s been 7 years since I did mine, but if memory serves, that’s the go.
Also to get the side panel(s) off, you only need to remove the small fixing screw at the rear end of the panel.
The lower front corner has a spigot that pops into a rubber fitting and the top front hooks under the tank.


Remove the seat and you will see the fixing screws at the rear of each panel. The order is.
#1 Undo the screw.
#2 Pop the spigot from the rubber fitting at the front bottom corner.
#3 THEN…unhook the top front corner.
When re attaching the panel, put a bit of rubber grease on the spigot and if you have none… Suck it…!
If it’s dry, it won’t fit smoothly into the rubber ring.
If you have any trouble, I will shoot a short video and post it.

[brider]

Got it, Huzo, that's going to save me some time and un-necessary removals.

Why doesn't my bike have one of those slick wheel-spray fenders on the front of the wheel, attached to the swingarm, like I see in your photo?

[Huzo]

Got it, Huzo, that's going to save me some time and un-necessary removals.

Why doesn't my bike have one of those slick wheel-spray fenders on the front of the wheel, attached to the swingarm, like I see in your photo?

Probably because you haven’t bought one in London and fitted it in 2016.

[brider]

Probably because you haven’t bought one in London and fitted it in 2016.

Is that an EU-only part specific to CARC Guzzi's? I don't know if I just like it, or if I like it because I think it's functional.

[Huzo]

Is that an EU-only part specific to CARC Guzzi's? I don't know if I just like it, or if I like it because I think it's functional.

It fits straight on to my Norge, so any bike with that swingarm should be fine.

[brider]

OK, so here are the only (2) yellow wires I could find under that right-hand plastic cover. I fished a thingy that may be a relay from dangling down beside the battery, and it has a single yellow wire going into it. There are (2) other yellow wires going into one side of a different connector, but I don't think those are what we're concerned with:





Is this the SI wire I need to pull out of the connector and replace with a fused jumper from the batt (+)?

[Huzo]

I would have to check to be sure, but when I get home a bit later, I’ll have a look ad post a shot.

[Thunderbutt]

Sorry I am late to the game but just checking to see if you completed to repair. 
I believe it was Harpers who had the plug and play pig tail for the S/I problem.  On my '08 Norge I ran a fused wire from the battery to the relay and also ran a .12ga wire from the relay to the starter solenoid.  Never had a problem after that.

Ended up completing the same process to a friends '09 Norge at a stop in Pa. while on our trip from Florida to Nova Scotia, Ca.  No problems for the duration of the trip or since.  He still has the bike.

Hope this helps

[Huzo]

If someone does not come along I’ll go and have a look at mine Brider.
It’s been a long time so I don’t want to give you a bum steer. I am out at present, but will check when I get home.

[guzzisteve]

If you have a meter you can see if it's the correct wire, it goes to the fuse box under seat on fender. The one w/yellow wire.

MPH cycle in Houston has plug & play harness.

[Nick]

I know, "search" is your friend, but in this case I have not run across the previous thread that shows a Norge wiring diagram that SHOWS the starter relay itself.

Here is a good post by "Kev m" that may help you out:

https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=43725.msg660347#msg660347

[brider]

Here is a good post by "Kev m" that may help you out:

https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=43725.msg660347#msg660347

AHA! I was SURE I read Kev's post previously, but it must've been on my phone which most of the time doesn't display the pics. I think his teachings will get me there now, thanks.

Thunderbutt: Your fix(es) are what I am aiming for, and I think Kev's post and the other guidance in this thread are all I need. I THINK the thingy I am holding in the pic I posted is the starter relay, so I think I was on the right track. Abandoned all efforts during this recent bout of nice weather, but it's getting colder and I gotta get back on this.

Thanks, all, and I'll report progress or questions.

[Shiny Hat]

Why not find the source of the issue rather than installing a band aid and adding a failure point?
Do a voltage drop test across the system that’s giving you an issue. To do this set your meter on DC volts and do the testing as you would for a resistance test. The system will have to be active, under load. So you would connect one lead to the battery positive terminal and the other to the yellow wire (86 on the relay) and hit the start button. What does the meter show. A good test will indicate .3 volts. Don’t sweat something close to that, it can be meter inaccuracy. Say you were testing connections along the circuit, I’ll call them A B C D. A being the battery positive terminal. Connect between A and D, if the meter is reading, example only, 3.8 volts that is your voltage drop and it is out of spec. Keep one meter lead on A and move the other to C, same 3.8. Connect meter between A and B, the meter now reads .3 volts. Your fault is after B. It is quick, highly accurate and the best way to find the voltage drop indicating a bad wire, connection, splice, etc.

Adding the jumper circuit may cure the start issue but other components using this circuit, depending on the location, can also not be operating as they should.

You can also do the same voltage drop tests on a ground circuit. If a ground is bad the meter will indicate a high voltage.

[brider]

Why not find the source of the issue rather than installing a band aid and adding a failure point?
Do a voltage drop test across the system that’s giving you an issue. To do this set your meter on DC volts and do the testing as you would for a resistance test. The system will have to be active, under load. So you would connect one lead to the battery positive terminal and the other to the yellow wire (86 on the relay) and hit the start button. What does the meter show. A good test will indicate .3 volts. Don’t sweat something close to that, it can be meter inaccuracy. Say you were testing connections along the circuit, I’ll call them A B C D. A being the battery positive terminal. Connect between A and D, if the meter is reading, example only, 3.8 volts that is your voltage drop and it is out of spec. Keep one meter lead on A and move the other to C, same 3.8. Connect meter between A and B, the meter now reads .3 volts. Your fault is after B. It is quick, highly accurate and the best way to find the voltage drop indicating a bad wire, connection, splice, etc.

Adding the jumper circuit may cure the start issue but other components using this circuit, depending on the location, can also not be operating as they should.

You can also do the same voltage drop tests on a ground circuit. If a ground is bad the meter will indicate a high voltage.

Whew! Thanks for that input, Shiny Hat (love to hear the story behind that nickname!), but this is a known problem from waaaaaay back in the early Tonti days, I just need to identify where the relays/solenoids/fuses ARE on this new-to-me bike, and connect the jumper accordingly. My wiring diagram is incomplete (shocker), but my old Cal 2 diagram is clear, did this fix on that rig years ago.

For such a common problem and such a simple fix, it amazes me how many pages on this forum are spent discussing it. Not complaining; it's like the Convert discussions about the drive system problems/solutions, always fun to add more.

[Shiny Hat]

Whew! Thanks for that input, Shiny Hat (love to hear the story behind that nickname!), but this is a known problem from waaaaaay back in the early Tonti days, I just need to identify where the relays/solenoids/fuses ARE on this new-to-me bike, and connect the jumper accordingly. My wiring diagram is incomplete (shocker), but my old Cal 2 diagram is clear, did this fix on that rig years ago.

For such a common problem and such a simple fix, it amazes me how many pages on this forum are spent discussing it. Not complaining; it's like the Convert discussions about the drive system problems/solutions, always fun to add more.

That’s fine if it works, it does, and you are happy with that, perfect.
Speaking just for me at some point it worked properly so I would want to find the source of the issue. In a pinch out on a ride then no I’m going to do what ever it takes to correct until I am able to be in a better place and have the time to track down the root cause.

Just advice/suggestion, no more no less.

[guzzisteve]

Is it a Tinfoil Hat? Inquiring minds want to know.

[Shiny Hat]

Is it a Tinfoil Hat? Inquiring minds want to know.

Well actually it was the shiny hat on top of my hydro valve springs that ended up only being shiny on one side so I guess it’s half shiny hat, mods can you fix that?
Is it really tin foil or aluminum foil for that application, can you buy tin foil?

Remember, if you can’t fix it with a hammer it’s electrical.

[guzzisteve]

I can fix but it cost 3 grand & I'll have to drill holes in your cam. Nice to know I was wrong on the hat.

[Shiny Hat]

I can fix but it cost 3 grand & I'll have to drill holes in your cam. Nice to know I was wrong on the hat.

No problem, happy to help.

[brider]

.... to track down the root cause.

The root cause is the OEM wiring design, always has been. It works fine if all the conditions are perfect, and a lot of times not perfect, but with age, temp, environment, neglect, etc, the circuitous route from the fuse to the starter relay degrades. Too many variables by design in that circuitous route, so it's not a half-_ssed fix to change the design and make it better at all. Believe me, I am not above relying on a half-_ssed fix forever, but in this case, it's solid.

[guzzisteve]

I think MPH made that fix 15yrs ago, others tested & figured it out 15yrs ago. This is nothing new, look at the archives from 07 on!!

[Shiny Hat]

I don’t know if this was something that also applied to old Stones or if this was just a fix for the Norge models.
It is something I wouldn’t do on my Stone because B+ at terminal 30 of that relay will power the light relay 24/7 key on or off ( it has an 87a circuit on the relay so it’s normally closed and would send power to the light relay coil 86, 85 is direct to ground so coil is powered. I would be able to operate the horn with the key off though).

I’m not trying to argue or change the past but I would stick to my thoughts on this and locate the source of the fault.
I completely understand why this path is chosen it’s just not for me.

I’ll try and find a Norge print so I’m on the same page.

[Shiny Hat]

https://i.ibb.co/SrwLD63/IMG-0032.gif

If this print is accurate it should be fairly easy to do the voltage drop tests. The yellow wire is for the start relay and license plate light (ties into the ignition switch to turn on parking lights). It gets its power through fuse B so you can piggyback there and still have the power ignition switched. If it fails connected at fuse B it would indicate a drop in the green/black wire and you would have other issues.
There is a standard for labeling electrical components so I don’t know why the relay is labeled as is. Normally 30 is the input,  87 and 87a are the outputs and 85 and 86 are for the coil. You might see a diode on a drawing between 85 and 86, that is a fly back diode and when replacing a relay it should be matched accordingly.


Not attempting to change your minds this is just a fairly simple circuit that can be diagnosed if you desire.

[brider]

I know my way around a wiring diagram, but the Norge diagram is screwing with my brain because I don't see a starter switch, like the button you push with your thumb, or a starter relay.

But I think I understand the idea focused on the "yellow" wire mentioned in Kev's (and others) writeups. Looking at the #3 Ignition relay, I think the idea is to pull the yellow lead from the relay, cap it off (and use it for future fused accessories), and replace it at the relay with a fused wire connected directly to the battery (+).

I'm pretty sure this is exactly what I did on my Cal 2 lo those many years ago:

[Huzo]

Mate…
I’ll be home tomorrow mid morning and will send you a video and shots of what’s required.
It will be totally clear to you then.

[Shiny Hat]

3 is the relay, 6 is the push button.

[Shiny Hat]

I know my way around a wiring diagram, but the Norge diagram is screwing with my brain because I don't see a starter switch, like the button you push with your thumb, or a starter relay.

But I think I understand the idea focused on the "yellow" wire mentioned in Kev's (and others) writeups. Looking at the #3 Ignition relay, I think the idea is to pull the yellow lead from the relay, cap it off (and use it for future fused accessories), and replace it at the relay with a fused wire connected directly to the battery (+).

I'm pretty sure this is exactly what I did on my Cal 2 lo those many years ago:

What you show on the attachment would be the “fix”.