NGC-machining solution needed

[SIR REAL ED]

Asking for a friend who should know better.

I, er, uh I mean my poor, enthusiastic, redneck friend (PERF) is looking to swap a motorcycle engine for a different engine.  One lug on the engine, and the corresponding frame mounting tabs provide excellent location for the countershaft relative to the swingarm pivot both in terms of elevation and front to back spacing.  Both bikes used a 10mm bolt in the location. 

Without a doubt, these are all signs from a higher power!!

The problem is the engine lug is wider than the frame lugs it needs to fit between.  PERF would like to remove about .60" from one side of the engine lug and 1.0" from the other side.  The ideal cutting tool for PREF would a piloted counter bore tool with a 10mm pilot that would cut a 27mm diameter counterbore which would completely eliminate the unwanted engine lug material.  This counter should have a maximum shaft diameter of 1/2" so it could be used with a rechargable 18 volt hand drill.

Anybody ever hear of such a cutting tool?

Other possibilities include step drilling the material away, or doing the same with progressively larger countersinks.

The criteria are known!!  Lets hear some ideas!!!

As favorite machining teacher used to say "Comments?  Questions?  Criticisms?  Doubts?"   

[cliffrod]

Redneck, rechargeable hand drill, cheap solution…

Get a 1 1/8 or 1 1/4” spade bit for drilling wood.  Trim/file to desired 27 mm (1.06l approx) diameter.  Then trim center to provide 10mm pilot function.  Remove any spur from spade and sharpen to cut aluminum.  Go slow, reshaprening as needed and it should work ok.  For limited drilling of aluminum in odd sizes, I often use a spade bit.  Work with speed of drill and feed to address chatter for the best cut.

Brazing up a cutting tool with a properly dimensioned and sharpened carbide blank would work better, but most don’t have a variety of carbide blanks in house for rebuilding chisels like I do.

Edit-  you may be able to buy a metric set of spades to begin with an actual 27mm bit, but they aren’t usually as common or cheap as a regular bit.

[John A]

Where can I get some miscellaneous carbide bits and pieces for making cutting tools for a lathe and mill? I’ve been looking but no luck yet.

[PeteS]

They can be had, just not cheap.

https://www.zoro.com/super-tool-reduced-shank-counterbore-1-116-d-52234/i/G0331261/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=surfaces&utm_campaign=shopping%20feed&utm_content=free%20google%20shopping%20clicks&campaignid=19725397595&productid=G0331261&v=&gad_source=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIxoyt7pmAhAMVHWtHAR1KaAqnEAQYBSABEgKgBvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

Pete

[SIR REAL ED]

Redneck, rechargeable hand drill, cheap solution…

Get a 1 1/8 or 1 1/4” spade bit for drilling wood.  Trim/file to desired 27 mm (1.06l approx) diameter.  Then trim center to provide 10mm pilot function.  Remove any spur from spade and sharpen to cut aluminum.  Go slow, reshaprening as needed and it should work ok.  For limited drilling of aluminum in odd sizes, I often use a spade bit.  Work with speed of drill and feed to address chatter for the best cut.

Brazing up a cutting tool with a properly dimensioned and sharpened carbide blank would work better, but most don’t have a variety of carbide blanks in house for rebuilding chisels like I do.

Edit-  you may be able to buy a metric set of spades to begin with an actual 27mm bit, but they aren’t usually as common or cheap as a regular bit.

Thanks Clifford!  That is an excellent, creative solution that just might do the trick.  I have been searching countersinks, counterbores, and spotfacers and
there seems to be a wide variety of cutter I can get at a reasonable price.  I never thought to search for spade bits.

IMO, it is always an honor and a pleasure to consult with someone whose knowledge and experience runs the full gambit from "McGuyvering it" in the woods with a rock
and barbed wire to precise, accurate, and highly techincal protocols.  In my experience, these are usually self-made, self-educated  people raised with nothing, and
who have achieved a significant level of experience and expertise.

If I do go the wood spade route, I think I will press fit a wood dowel into the hole.  it should give me some added stability and help keep me on center.

I salute you!

[SIR REAL ED]

They can be had, just not cheap.

https://www.zoro.com/super-tool-reduced-shank-counterbore-1-116-d-52234/i/G0331261/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=surfaces&utm_campaign=shopping%20feed&utm_content=free%20google%20shopping%20clicks&campaignid=19725397595&productid=G0331261&v=&gad_source=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIxoyt7pmAhAMVHWtHAR1KaAqnEAQYBSABEgKgBvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

Pete

Thanks Pete.  I have found something similar and that is high on my list of things to try.

[PeteS]

Thanks Pete.  I have found something similar and that is high on my list of things to try.

If you can find something similar on ebay they will be a fraction of the cost. This is pretty much an oddball though given the cutdown shaft.
If your RN friend has a lathe it would be a lot easier first to cutdown a more common 3/4” shaft plus make a pilot to fit.

Pete

[cliffrod]

Thanks Clifford!  That is an excellent, creative solution that just might do the trick.  I have been searching countersinks, counterbores, and spotfacers and
there seems to be a wide variety of cutter I can get at a reasonable price.  I never thought to search for spade bits.

IMO, it is always an honor and a pleasure to consult with someone whose knowledge and experience runs the full gambit from "McGuyvering it" in the woods with a rock
and barbed wire to precise, accurate, and highly techincal protocols.  In my experience, these are usually self-made, self-educated  people raised with nothing, and
who have achieved a significant level of experience and expertise.

If I do go the wood spade route, I think I will press fit a wood dowel into the hole.  it should give me some added stability and help keep me on center.

I salute you!

Where can I get some miscellaneous carbide bits and pieces for making cutting tools for a lathe and mill? I’ve been looking but no luck yet.

Thanks, guys.  If kept sharp to produce the best work, my carbide tipped chisels each last between 1-2hrs avg in studio.   If I had to pay retail or even wholesale for all of them ($30-$150+ each), I would have an even harder time making money.  So I order carbide blanks from a nearby manufacturer https://www.qualitycarbide.com/ who makes them to my dimensions and mixed to proper composition.  Not sure what min order is because I buy a few hundred pieces at a time.  A few years ago, cost was typically $3-$8 per blank for each chisel.  Then I re-tip my chisels with new carbide when the old carbide is exhausted.   The carbide I order is specifically rated for impact work, but for limited & informal use on metal it performs ok.  I’m not making stuff for NASA..  i  also have a variety of regular carbide inserts for machining & tooling work that is better suited for metal work.  Just odd spare packs and loose inserts that have accrued over years of buying tools & tooling.

The thing about carbide inserts or blanks in general is that they are not heat sensitive or tempered like tool steel.  In simple terms, They are made from powdered ingredients, often mixed in a big commercial kitchen mixer, using a recipe  formulated for the intended use.  The mixture is pressed into a hard block and cut into pieces.  The pieces are dimensioned and machined to specification.  Once finished, they are furnaces in a big kiln or oven to make them into the hard carbide blank for use.  Because they are not heat treated or tempered, the blank can be brazed with oxy/act torch and used as desired, even if it has a hole for a screw for more specific use.

There are lots of videos from our “creative” peers overseas (not sure how to say redneck in Vietnamese or Thai..) making all kinds of custom tooling for lathe work with custom brazed carbide tooling.  No safety glasses, no workman’s comp, no OSHA, etc, etc..  They regularly use plain off the shelf carbide inserts, which are then brazed onto tooling shanks in some creative manner.  They’re not going to impress the serious professional machinists on WG, but for non-critical operations there’s a lot of utility in what they accomplish.  Just one channel to check out- https://www.youtube.com/@KULITEKNIK001

The only issue re carbide is that you’ll need to have a dedicated green wheel on a grinder to sharpen carbide.   A regular carborundum wheel won’t cut carbide and a green wheel is too soft for grinding the steel shanks.

[SIR REAL ED]

If you can find something similar on ebay they will be a fraction of the cost. This is pretty much an oddball though given the cutdown shaft.
If your RN friend has a lathe it would be a lot easier first to cutdown a more common 3/4” shaft plus make a pilot to fit.

Pete

Thanks again.

It is such a simple machining operation, it is almost embarrassing the haul the engine to a machine shop.  Most of the machinists I know would figure fixturing
time on a mil is not worth it, and would machine it by hand.  Some would disagree, and I can't argue that filtering it is the proper technique.

I don't recall the vendor at present, (MSC?) but they had one for $70.  I will call later this week to check on availability and pilot sizes.

The internet is a beautiful thing.

[SIR REAL ED]

Thanks, guys.  If kept sharp to produce the best work, my carbide tipped chisels each last between 1-2hrs avg in studio.   If I had to pay retail or even wholesale for all of them ($30-$150+ each), I would have an even harder time making money.  So I order carbide blanks from a nearby manufacturer https://www.qualitycarbide.com/ who makes them to my dimensions and mixed to proper composition.  Not sure what min order is because I buy a few hundred pieces at a time.  A few years ago, cost was typically $3-$8 per blank for each chisel.  Then I re-tip my chisels with new carbide when the old carbide is exhausted.   The carbide I order is specifically rated for impact work, but for limited & informal use on metal it performs ok.  I’m not making stuff for NASA..  i  also have a variety of regular carbide inserts for machining & tooling work that is better suited for metal work.  Just odd spare packs and loose inserts that have accrued over years of buying tools & tooling.

The thing about carbide inserts or blanks in general is that they are not heat sensitive or tempered like tool steel.  In simple terms, They are made from powdered ingredients, often mixed in a big commercial kitchen mixer, using a recipe  formulated for the intended use.  The mixture is pressed into a hard block and cut into pieces.  The pieces are dimensioned and machined to specification.  Once finished, they are furnaces in a big kiln or oven to make them into the hard carbide blank for use.  Because they are not heat treated or tempered, the blank can be brazed with oxy/act torch and used as desired, even if it has a hole for a screw for more specific use.

There are lots of videos from our “creative” peers overseas (not sure how to say redneck in Vietnamese or Thai..) making all kinds of custom tooling for lathe work with custom brazed carbide tooling.  No safety glasses, no workman’s comp, no OSHA, etc, etc..  They regularly use plain off the shelf carbide inserts, which are then brazed onto tooling shanks in some creative manner.  They’re not going to impress the serious professional machinists on WG, but for non-critical operations there’s a lot of utility in what they accomplish.  Just one channel to check out- https://www.youtube.com/@KULITEKNIK001

The only issue re carbide is that you’ll need to have a dedicated green wheel on a grinder to sharpen carbide.   A regular carborundum wheel won’t cut carbide and a green wheel is too soft for grinding the steel shanks.

Excellent information Cliffrod.  Thanks!

Always fascinating to see that people with few resources let nothing stop them, while people with tons of resources are often stymied at the drop of a hat.

When the chips are down, call the person who grew up poor and did not let that stop them.

[cliffrod]

If you do it freehand, you may end up removing a little more than absolutely necessary and resolving the difference with custom-dimensioned shims that are easy to make on a plain sharpening stone.  Measure progress with caliper.

Understand that ^^^ is the way to resolve/explain that “uh oh” moment when you realize things just went wrong. And you took an inch off on the wrong side….

[Mike Tashjian]

Since this is aluminum and I assume the lug is in an open area, why not just use a saw to cut the bulk of the material off?  Then take a file and fine tune it.  If I am missing something about this lug location and a piloted counterbore is the only solution a picture or two might help. 

[SIR REAL ED]

If you do it freehand, you may end up removing a little more than absolutely necessary and resolving the difference with custom-dimensioned shims that are easy to make on a plain sharpening stone.  Measure progress with caliper.

Understand that ^^^ is the way to resolve/explain that “uh oh” moment when you realize things just went wrong. And you took an inch off on the wrong side….

Excellent advice.  My game plan is to remove about 0.2" more than needed, and shim to fit.  Reasons being possible later fitment of a divergent swingarm
rear wheel combo.

[SIR REAL ED]

Since this is aluminum and I assume the lug is in an open area, why not just use a saw to cut the bulk of the material off?  Then take a file and fine tune it.  If I am missing something about this lug location and a piloted counterbore is the only solution a picture or two might help.

That was exactly the method I first thought of using.  Until I pull the engine again, I am not certain I can do a full circle clean
up on the engine lug.  Due to the angle of the hacksaw, I might only be able to remove 3/4 of the full circle needed to mate with the frame.
I'll check to see if any of my pictures show it clearly.

[John A]

If it’s a thru hole, it might be possible to use a sacrificial long bolt to hold a cutter against the lug. Then you could turn it from the offside
https://mjtoolingllc.com/other-products/union-2-o-d-hss-shell-end-mill-5-8-pilot-1-4-key-spiral-10-flute-2-0-mb11174bj2/
Similar to one like this.

[Shiny Hat]

You can cut off the tabs and weld to the correct position or if the engine does not have to go between the tabs make links
and bend/shim to use existing locations.

[SIR REAL ED]

If it’s a thru hole, it might be possible to use a sacrificial long bolt to hold a cutter against the lug. Then you could turn it from the offside
https://mjtoolingllc.com/other-products/union-2-o-d-hss-shell-end-mill-5-8-pilot-1-4-key-spiral-10-flute-2-0-mb11174bj2/
Similar to one like this.

It is a thru hole.

That is brilliant in it's simplicity and function.  I salute you!

[SIR REAL ED]

You can cut off the tabs and weld to the correct position or if the engine does not have to go between the tabs make links
and bend/shim to use existing locations.

Tin foil brains think alike!

That is where I started.  Two links at this location + two links at the top of the cylinder head.  Precise, stable, ositioning was unstable until I added two turnbuckles.
The turnbuckles worked like a charm.

Getting rid of these links and using the MZ bolt thru both stock locations positions the engine almost perfectly, with the added
plus of knowing the swingarm to countershaft should be as parallel as stock.

A fun bit of fiddling.



 

[SIR REAL ED]

I've decided to violate one of the deepest held principles in my soul and actually spend some money.

I ordered one of these last night, along with a 3/8" diameter pilot, some 3/36" dowel pins and some bronze bearings to fit over the dowel pin pilot "axle."

Adjustability on-the-fly is a good thing.

https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/08831083

Should be just about fool-proof!  Hold my beer!

[Shiny Hat]

The case might not be a solid mass that allows you to remove material without boring a hole in the case and letting
the oil out. See if you can find pictures of the internals of the case before cutting.
This is what I mean once you cut through a few mm. Once you start to cut you could be in the case.
Pretty sure cutting is not the way to go, better off moving the tabs if the links won’t work.

[Mike Tashjian]

I think leaving the engine alone would be my first thought here too.  I would cut the frame tabs off and reweld them or make them new.  Making small plates that could be welded to the existing frame tabs is another way.  A tube spacer placed between the frame tabs could be made from a pipe be used for an additional bracket or brackets.  I'd find a friend with a welder and a few machine tools.  I just helped the son in law with a project bike and we welded up a kick stand, remade some brackets for the muffler and machined some new parts. Kept me out of trouble for a few hours. 

[SIR REAL ED]

Those are excellent points.  More research is need before cutting.  Thanks.

[SIR REAL ED]

I'm pretty sure you guys are right.  Machining a diameter of that size that deep will result in breaking thru to the gearbox.

At least I have no evidence to think that there will not be a problem.

I broke the bad news to PERF.  He took it like a man and cried in his beer......

"Genius often requires adjustment!"

[John A]

Small setbacks just means “ back to the drawing board”
I’d be doing the frame bracket.

[SIR REAL ED]

Small setbacks just means “ back to the drawing board”
I’d be doing the frame bracket.

A much smaller setback than drilling thru the engine case.  It pays to have both made mistakes yourself, and even better have friends who have made mistakes!

Much easier to listen to others AFTER you have screwed up some things yourself.

So far, it has been much simpler than I had even hoped for.  Famous last words I know!

45 minutes with a cutoff wheel and a Sawzall, and the "Weldment from Hell" surrenders the brackets.  The cross tube is even the same diameter on both bikes.

Another 30-60 minutes for weld prep and fixtering should do the trick.






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[Mike Tashjian]

That was a lot of work to get those two small brackets.  I assume the old frame was never to be used again.  Fabricating from a new piece of steel is not hard if you pattern it with a piece of paper or cereal box board.  In this case you may still need a couple more at the top side and making them right will go along way in making this project work.  Looks good so far. 

[Shiny Hat]

“Weldment” now that’s a word you don’t see used everyday (outside of manufacturing).
100 percent accurate, it is a weldment.
Maybe it’s more familiar than I think but to those who aren’t familiar it’s any assembly consisting of parts welded together. It’s equivalent to the word food, pretty broad brush.
Brought back some funny memories.

[tris]

I think that a creative solution would be to use a back spot facing cutter from the opposite side

If you can get a long enough one the 2 holes will hold everything square

https://www.drill-service.co.uk/products/countersinks-counterbores/back-spot-facing-cutters/

The trouble doing by hand is controlling the cut sufficiently that you don't get a dig. Multi tooth cutters will make that easier

[John A]

I think that a creative solution would be to use a back spot facing cutter from the opposite side

If you can get a long enough one the 2 holes will hold everything square

https://www.drill-service.co.uk/products/countersinks-counterbores/back-spot-facing-cutters/

The trouble doing by hand is controlling the cut sufficiently that you don't get a dig. Multi tooth cutters will make that easier

That’s what I’d use but I didn’t know what they were called. If I was twenty years younger, I’d get a set!

[SIR REAL ED]

That was a lot of work to get those two small brackets.  I assume the old frame was never to be used again.  Fabricating from a new piece of steel is not hard if you pattern it with a piece of paper or cereal box board.  In this case you may still need a couple more at the top side and making them right will go along way in making this project work.  Looks good so far.

I debated going that route.  Since my machine tools are primarily hand tools, I thought this was the easier route.  The cross tube diameter of the DR frame and the MZ frame were very close.  So that eliminate a huge amount of hacksaw, jigsaw, round filing, and die grinder work.  The bend in the brackets would have been very problematic for me.  I don't have the equipment for bending anything that can't be clamped in a vise and hammered.  The DR mounts are about 3mm thick.

The handwork isn't practical at times, but it is recreation, and therapeutic.  The DR mounts were dimensionally correct, except for being about 2mm too long when measured from hole edge to frame edge.  Very quick work with a die grinder.

Finally there is something poetic about reusing the DR mounts.

I agree with you 100% on making patterns.  Cardboard, sheet metal, UHMW, thin plywood, whatever is at hand is sometimes just fine.

It is like using stacks of Post-It notes as an Ultrathick feeler gage, or using drill bits, bolts, wood dowels, ar pencils as measuring tools.  It might make the real machinists cringe, but hey, if they did not have machine tools, they wouldn't be real machinists!!