MotoGuzzi V100S brakes!

[Rower30]

ALL,

6,000 miles on my V100S sneaking in rides this winter. But, only about 300 miles are in corners if that. I've ridden dirt bikes for decades, but 500 pound street bikes, 1979 CB750F and 1992 R100RT and now the V100S, are another thing entirely.

Like the brakes. Even my KTM 250 DXC with disc brakes can't match what the V100S can do with stopping power. The real crux, is that the V100S is so capable in corners it is easy for my feeble mind to overdrive my experience. The bike could probably go on ahead without me if I let it! But, being it is what it is, I have twice now gone in too hot (for me) into blind cornes and grabbed WAY too much brake.

Let's go back to my BMW R100RT. It had really wooden brakes even with supper metallic copper infused street sport (have to still stop in rain) compound pads. The best I found at stopping power. But, the R100RT would wiggle ferociously in a corner and especially loaded up with luggage. If it did get out of hands in a decreasing radius blind corner (you just let the bike wiggle) and were scared enough to grab the brakes hard it didn't have near enough grip to stand the bike up in the corner too much. And that's the issue.

The V100S has superbike level brakes, and will stand the bike up with stopping power at ANY speed. I can get WAY too much brakes so easy on this bike it is crazy. When the bike stands up, you of course go wide in the corner. Like a dirt bike understeering, you have to release the brakes to re-gain your corner line. Well, assuming physics says you just are going way, way too fast. I'm too squidly to go that fast into a corner so far.

The V100S is so capable in a corner, I don't ever even think about the shaft drive it is so background. It is so stiff, in the right way, and composed it can bring you into a corner above my experience. And my experience on the R100RT isn't even close to getting me comfortable in this bikes cornering envelope. 

The true tell tail? My average lean angle is 37-38 degrees according to the GUZZI app. My inner gyroscope on the R100RT is so built-in I just stop at that lean capability. The bike can do far more, and those scare me silly corners where I crank it over even more to stay on the road after release the brakes tells me that. But it isn't "built-in" and automatic at all yet.

I know, this is where the superbike schools come in. I just can't get to the level of this bike's cornering capability No, I don't need to go fast per say, but to re-adjust the lean angle and the brake's incredible, and quick acting, power. Sure, the anti-lock works, with the rear wheel can leaving the ground on occasion and dash light flashing and with the lean sensitive traction control set to one you do stop fast, really fast. In a straight line, though. But, those aren't working when "I" want them too in a corner! They save me yes, but I don't "use" them properly per say.

The V100S WAY, WAY exceeds my expectations on handling. It doesn't wind-up and wiggle and if you do overdrive it, the brakes are crazy powerful. Yes, if you aren't use to the power, I'm not, the bike will stand up but that's my fault as I don't push the bars down hard enough as I brake. My inner setting say what worked on the R100RT has always been good enough. No, not on the V100S. The good news, is as angry as the bike gets with me ham fisting a corner, releasing the brakes IMMEDIATELY straightens the bike and it calms down goes about completing the corner.

This is a fantastic motorcycle with a not so fantastic rider on it. I'm 66 and the R100RT this past 31 years didn't do my riding triangle; brakes, acceleration and lean, any favors as the R100RT was so timid in corners. I doubt I'll capture what this bike can do as is. Not enough safe places to do it. The V100S rats out my capability in a big way, and damn, those brakes and rider aids both help and hurt my feelings something awful. But, the good side is I'm here to explain my incompetence so they must be working as designed!

I may look "super bike" with all my armored pants, gloves, shoes, KLM induction pro jacket and ARAI helmet but that covers up a lot of incompetence. And I know it. The V100S just brings it to a new level. I know this is supposed to be a "sport" touring bike but so far I'd say it goes well past what most can do on it skill wise.

This sport teaches you your never going to really fully master it. The V100S just pushed that mastery way above where I used to think was. The V100S tells me the truth, I'm not really anwhere near bragging right on ANY motorcycle driven at the limits in practice.   

[Dave Swanson]

I agree, the brakes are as good or better than any superbike I owned in the past.  At my age ~70 I have given up trying to imitate Nicky Hayden,  but I still appreciate the package. It is stellar.

[2dogs]

How can you be enjoying the ride if you are not operating at your personal level of capability and comfort?

Don’t let the bike write a cheque your butt can’t cash.

[Rower30]

How can you be enjoying the ride if you are not operating at your personal level of capability and comfort?

Don’t let the bike write a cheque your butt can’t cash.

I put 35,000 miles on the R100RT rubber side down but there were those "moments". More skill would mitigate what a moment is. You never plan for them, but they get to you anyway.

Decreasing radius blind corners have way of putting you past where you "were" comfortable and into exactly where you aren't, shit happens. You can't always go just under the speed you are willing to fall can you? Besides, MCing is fun BECAUSE there is always room well past where you feel comfortable and can learn for decades. To think you can just stay "safe" trolling along isn't so.

New bike, new average limits to get used to. I paid for the performance, and I need to expand to be able to use SOME of it. I admit a problem to fix a problem. You're right, though, my ceiling with this bike is under what it can do and it will just have to stay there. Still, it can go way higher than the R100RT. I'll take some, not all, off that table!

[MG_rider]

Rower
You are prime candidate material for a couple of track days with competent instructors.  That is the safest (and cheapest) place to improve your performance riding skills, not on the streets/highway where running wide/standing it up can have severe consequences.

I ran and coached track days for 16 years, raced for 9 before that.  Took 2nd in a 6 hour a year and a half ago at age 69.

The track is much more forgiving place to push out your comfort zone with performance riding.

Meantime, on the street, you can practice calibrating your braking with slow/medium/hard stops.  This has to include learning to modulate (releasing) pressure on the front brake.  Do this drill in a safe place straight up and down.  You don't have to get to ABS intervention on the front to get better at this.

Ability to turn in on the brakes is part bike setup, part rider skill and position on the bike.  Maybe more than I should get into on first post, but happy to detail later.

Yes, you have an amazing modern capable bike.  I want to see you gain capability at minimal risk.

Safe  travels!

[jrt]

@MG_Rider's suggestion is a better one than mine (do some track days), but also you can get familiar with the bike's characteristics if you run the same road route over and over so you are comfortable with the transitions.  I have a set of roads out in hills that I run regularly- not particularly fast, but I know the corners and so I aim to be smooth through them.  For me, that's more important than being as fast as possible. 

[Rower30]

Rower
You are prime candidate material for a couple of track days with competent instructors.  That is the safest (and cheapest) place to improve your performance riding skills, not on the streets/highway where running wide/standing it up can have severe consequences.

I ran and coached track days for 16 years, raced for 9 before that.  Took 2nd in a 6 hour a year and a half ago at age 69.

The track is much more forgiving place to push out your comfort zone with performance riding.

Meantime, on the street, you can practice calibrating your braking with slow/medium/hard stops.  This has to include learning to modulate (releasing) pressure on the front brake.  Do this drill in a safe place straight up and down.  You don't have to get to ABS intervention on the front to get better at this.

Ability to turn in on the brakes is part bike setup, part rider skill and position on the bike.  Maybe more than I should get into on first post, but happy to detail later.

Yes, you have an amazing modern capable bike.  I want to see you gain capability at minimal risk.

Safe  travels!

No question track days are good. My weird situation is the STOP, not as much the GO. I'm fine with acceleration management after I put it in SPORT mode as this feels like a carburetor on the R100RT, more immediate response. The brakes are just over the top strong with near no lever pressure, so get a little adrenaline going and you're into the anti-lock or standing the bike up and hell yes that's not good. I'm just not autonomously adjusted to them. Track days can help, but it takes way more than that to re-adjust your subconscious response to the V100S brakes. I do what always worked before, and it doesn't now.

I agree to use the brakes to the SLOWLY approach max, or at least the emergency flasher level, to get the feel with the bike's brakes. I did that first thing but that's not your built-in emergency response at all. I drove the analog BMW 31 years after all.  But in a corner and trail braking into a blind corner is a far cry different than level ground braking. I brake before I get into a corner and accelerate out, this is safer on the street as you brake upright and enter a corner slower, until the radius all of a sudden get massively tighter on you. Now you need to trail brake and turn, both. That's a pros level thing to get right. And be ready for the dynamics.  I also turn at an invisible apex on the street leading to a corner as I can see the surface, and I can't often see the surface into the street you turn onto. I use the line can see the most of on the street. Even often used routes change. Big and small slippery dead animals, tree limbs, trash cans you name it.

My BMW R100RT programmed braking is WAY in excess of the lever pressure needed on the V100S. Not complaining per say, but to claim I'm hopping on this bike and doing it service in a sudden situation is ridiculous right now.

I've done this well long enough to know when I'm at a decent level of expertise on a specific bike. MotoCross bikes are not even close to street bikes and to say that helps is just a help, not the total solution at all. Worse, the V100S is hugely different than the R100RT, another world better, and I'm not.

No amount of training will get it done on a motorcyle. Better, yes. Pro's crash all the time. Ask Marc McKenzie. that said, I want the envelope the bike provides above me to be managed to improve the safe area I will use in an emergency and used effectively as needs arise. I don't ride there and no, I don't chase the envelope, but if it presents itself I want to stay upright.

People think they are way, way better than they are. I don't have that affliction. Still, coming off the 1992 R100R  I am a very happy Moto Guzzi owner. This bike is wonderful to ride. I just love everything about it's design and engine configuration. Niggles yes (luggage size and storage compartments), major stuff is great. Never ever considered a Guzzi but here I am.

[chuck peterson]

C a r e f u l. …

https://www.facebook.com/reel/2120379438298803?fs=e&mibextid=w7Tujb

Last thing i do in a decreasing radius turn is brake. Lean more is about your only option to staying on line

 

[Rower30]

Chuck is right probably 95% of the time. Don't use the brakes if you're not way too hot into the turn. On a dirt bike with a front wheel wash-out trail braking into a corner my immediate response is to release the brake to get traction on the front wheel to keep turning and not competely wash out. This is triggered by a skid, though. I'm not even close to that on the street and why, technically, releasing the brake is almost always right.

Still, when in doubt on the street I release brake. The built-in response, though, should be to not use it in the first place and knowing the traction triangle you're in at the time. Knowing there is pleny of available traction for an unexpected tight turn is an immediate decision, too. Chuck is spot on that the most likely right decision is that there is plenty of traction in most situations, and braking removes that available traction to turn. We are after all, turning not stopping!

The wheels have so much grip to accelerate, turn or stop. If I'm having a problem in a corner, braking removes the traction available to TURN. I've learned in the dirt that trail braking is just a good way to crash slower, and not make the turn at all! In the same corner, if you released brake (like on the next lap!), and turned the bike it will usually make the corner. This is not at all what we do initially. When your face is eight-inches from the dirt, try something different! Of course going into a corner at street oriented speeds is necessary and I'm good there, so we have that. I usually brake prior to corners, then hold throttle and if anything accelerate out of them as I lift the bike up. This technique gives an ample traction triangle safety margin, but in a surprise I mismanaged! Knowing isn't doing.

I admitted that if I release the brake (I do but after I upset the bike!) it regains lean and goes around the corner despite me. Trail braking is a touchy subject and for pros and good surfaces and is an at the limit approach that is hard to manage on the street with such variable road surfaces. Your'e trying to satisy two variables at once, turn and decelerate, both. Either depends on a finer awarness of what the road will do to the friction at any instant, there is near no error margin.

Chick points out I'm not doing that, and he's right. Both times releasing the brake sorted it all out!

Sorry about the post. But if even one person kind of begins to think about how they ride, and what MIGHT happen that is unexpected, and what they may do to deteriorate their safety net, it's worth it to me. I'm fine with being the "squid" and I'm adult enough to admit it. I'm no moto GP relic, just a relic. But I enjoy this hobby emensely.

[chuck peterson]

 

[Tom]

On your RT, did you do any long distance touring?  Consider the Moto Guzzi National Owners Association meet in John Day, Oregon. 

[blu guzz]

Rower:

You are very close to my area of Northern Kentucky.  There are a few Guzzi riders around here.  If you are ever interested in a meet-up, let me know.  Also, I believe this Saturday is the monthly breakfast meetup of the Southwest Ohio Guzzi Riders.  That takes place not far from you.

[Rower30]

Hi Tom, Blu Guzz,

I used my 1979 CB750F for my really long trip and why I bought the BMW! When I stopped at the Motel 6, my hand was unable to sign the guest receipt after 750 mile days (what was I thinking?). That 750F had an invisible buzz that killed my hands dexterity. Not so the BMW, it thrumed not buzzed. So far the Guzzi is really good. That nice twin cylinder thrum, too, but even better and more civilized. I love the guzzi engine.

But, 30 years of motocross destroyed my back. I had to put 1.5" up and back ROX bar riser on the V100S to get comfortable. And I  know, that put the steering axis behind the true steering head pivot point so there is a mild "swing" or arc around the ideal center point. Not "perfect" for sport stuff. Still, I'm good for 150 mile stints then it's DQ time! I cannot do cannonball iron butt stuff anymore. My upper back just hates it. The Guzzi has increased my comfortable range double over the R100RT, though. Why? No clue. Maybe the suspension, definitely the cruise control helped. How I rode that Honda so far was youth!

I am planning to go to the AMA motorcycle Museum for sure this summer, probably by myself, when the days are longer. That's 130 or so miles each way to Pickerington, OH from Oxford. That is a nice day trip with a good end point to enjoy. Most all my riding has been by myself as I don't rush around. I enjoy exactly where I am as I go, I don't fret about the destination so much anymore. Being on the bike out in the air and quiet in the country is wonderful. Why would want to get somewhere so soon and leave that? If I wanted to get home as quick as I could I'd just never leave the couch.

I'd love to find responsible riders to trip with for sure. I visit Cadre cycles now and again, Tom. Some say the V100S isn't a real Guzzi but it got me on one, I'll say that. Kind of like the air head crowd at BMW. So if a next gen Guzzi rider is in the fold, I'd love to meet you all.

[Rower30]

Tom,

Tap my profile and Email me.

Sparky

[blu guzz]

In the 90s, I went from a Japanese 4 to a R100RS, then R1100RS, then R1150RT.  So, I definitely understand the differences in the quality of the vibrations.  It is funny however that the newer Oilhead Beemers I owned did almost everything better than the old R100, except they were not as smooth.  All those extra engine parts caused a slight tingly feeling in the bars.
I test rode the Mandello when it came out.  I think the engine is magnificent, but the bike as a whole didn't shout to me to take it home.  That's just my opinion as you obviously heard it calling to you.  That's great that it did so we have one more member of the fold.  Even with a great dealer in the area, you still are not going to see to many of them coming toward you in the opposite lane. I find this to be a plus.

[rocker59]

Counter Steering and moving your weight to the inside of the turn help reduce the feeling of the bike wanting to stand up in corners.

It really is just a "feeling".  The rider can counteract it with weight transfer and more counter steering input, and keep your elbows loose.  Locking your arms in a high-stress corner will make you run wide.

Tire profile can have an effect, too.  You'll just have to learn over time what works best for you on the V100.

Track Days / Track Schools will teach you effective braking.  They're not all about WFO down the straights.  I took my Sport 1100 to several track days, years ago, and learned a lot on those outings.