Is there a more modern midsize Guzzi styled like V700/Ambo/Eldo?

[Mwether]

The V9 is not nearly as flexible as a Virago engine...my V9 need 50% more rpm before it will operate comfortably. Also, especially in the lower three gears, under light load, the V9 engine does not run smoothly, but it hunts a little, which I find very annoying in slow riding. ...

I wonder if a remap would help?

[lazlokovacs]

loving the executive summaries!

A V9 isn't fit to lick the boots of an old loop frame guzzi

Yes I've ridden both

[faffi]

I wonder if a remap would help?

It seems to be a result of the single throttle body intake and very difficult to tune out. Personally, I believe it has more to do with the actual throttle body design than having just one throttle body. I ride 90% of the time in firth or top gear above 45 mph, so I am not bothered that much.

[Kev m]

What are we trying to "tune out" here? Vibration? A flat spot?

If we're talking vibration I've always found that's a very subjective thing and again, the answer is test ride before you decide.

A lot of people report flat spots or trouble spots places in the rpm range (often midrange) that are usually the results of unintended consequences of emissions certifications. People chase lots of solutions these "problems" - eliminating SAS system (which really shouldn't affect it), or EVAP systems (mostly ditto), or remap (this is the one that COULD work).

Personally I keep the KISS principle and I try not to fix things that aren't broken. I can't think of a bike I've ever owned where any symptom of emissions tuning was SOOOOOOO bad I couldn't figure out how to live with it. But YMMV.

[rocker59]

What are we trying to "tune out" here? Vibration? A flat spot?

If we're talking vibration I've always found that's a very subjective thing 

As far as vibration is concerned, not only is it subjective rider to rider, but from bike to bike.  Motorcycles are individuals and vibration can vary in frequency and volume from bike to bike.

For me, it was the 2010 V7 Classic being smooth and the 2014 V7 Classic having a super-annoying high frequency vibration. 

My Carb'd Sport 1100 had a soothing, lower frequency vibration.  My V11 LeMans was a little higher frequency, but very low volume.  Thousand mile days on either of these two was almost an enjoyable endeavor.

[faffi]

My V9 does not have flat spots, it just cannot keep a steady rpm under very light load. Throttle respons is also abrupt under these conditions. Engine has good power from idle up, but will protest through heavy vibrations if loaded below 2000rpm in the higher gears. Easy solution is to use lower gears.

[bad Chad]

My v9 does't have the issues some seem to have.  Why would anybody run about at 2000 or sub rpm anyway???   I don't think it has anything todo with single vs double throttle bodies.   I agree there are difference between bikes, in most cases, I think it comes down to how they are set up and state of tune.   And certainly it is super subjective, so it's really hard to make accurate across the board statements and we all sometimes like todo.

[rocker59]

My V9  cannot keep a steady rpm under very light load. Throttle responds is also abrupt under these conditions.

That's a mapping issue, common to many efi motorcycles.

Engine  will protest through heavy vibrations if loaded below 2000rpm in the higher gears. 

File this one under "they all do that".  Every Italian V-twin will protest during heavy throttle at low RPM. 

[Cam3512]

You need to rev the snot outta Guzzis!   Kev hit on it earlier, if you lug it they’re not happy.  I listen to Harley guys short shift at a green light and they’re in 5th a block away.   Guzzi’s are just shifting into 2nd gear.

[faffi]

File this one under "they all do that".  Every Italian V-twin will protest during heavy throttle at low RPM.

I am not talking heavy throttle, just enough to accelerate. The engine has the power, but does not feel happy doing it. Similar to my XT600. You just need to keep the revs a bit higher. Which I do not like; I like engines that will pull effortlessly from very low revs and cruise barely above idle. But it is not all that important, and the V9 have many other virtues.

[bad Chad]

Perhaps you are looking for something that is not really there?  Guzzi are not long throw, they aren't short throw, they are a bit in the middle.  If you want a Guzzi to behave like a HD, you won't be happy.  Just as if you want a Guzzi to act like a Ducati.  Guzzi love to run from 3/4 thousand to red line, they don't do well around 2K.  Yes, they will do it, but its not what they are designed to do.

[faffi]

The V9 is right because it is more fun to ride below 55 mph than above It is relaxing to ride, and does not urge me to push any performance envelope.

I do not think crank throw/stroke ratio has very much to do with how the engine acts, it likely comes mostly down to other things. Air cooling, for instance, certainly limit how an engine can be tuned, and likely why the early liquid cooled Triumph 900 made tons more low and midrange torque compared to the Guzzi, despite the same 55 hp claimed top end. That was not the case with the earlier air cooled 865cc Triumph.

The V9 Bobber made 48.1 ft-lb @ 3100 rpm, the air cooled Triumph Scrambler made 44.7 @ 3100 rpm, the liquid cooled Triumph Street Twin made 57.6 @ 3200 rpm of torque.

The V9 Bobber made 50.9 rwhp @ 6500 rpm, the air cooled Triumph Scrambler made 50.7 @ 6700 rpm, the liquid cooled Triumph Street Twin made 52.6 @ 6100 rpm. All figures from the same dyno at Rider Magazine, but not taken on the same day.

I still think the low stressed V9 should be able to cruise happily in top gear below 2000 rpm, especially since it has perfect primary balance. But it does not, so I do not ask it to. On level ground I use 6th gear from an indicated 45 mph, climbing hills or facing a gale I will typically sit in 5th or 4th at that speed, and even higher speeds, whatever the engine is happy with.

[chuck peterson]

“  still think the low stressed V9 should be able to cruise happily in top gear below 2000 rpm, especially since it has perfect primary balance. But it does not, so I do not ask it to. On level ground I use 6th gear from an indicated 45 mph, climbing hills or facing a gale I will typically sit in 5th or 4th at that speed, and even higher speeds, whatever the engine is happy with.…”

Forget mph

Keep your revs about 4-6k, at least 3k and Guzzi shall heal you…

 

[MerleLowe]

Interesting thoughts about cruise rpm.  I won't even run my Harley big twins at 2,000 rpm.  All that does is beat the compensator and crank bearings up.  2,500 or so only at a level cruise with maybe < 25% throttle.  More load than that, downshift and run between 3-5k.

My 2010 V7 classic gets very, very smooth just past 4k.  My V85 a few hundred lower. 

[bad Chad]

Faffi, you certainly do as you see fit.  However, you are likely going to shorten the life span of your v9.  Guzzi are not designed to be loafed around.   
I do, now understand why your v9 vibrates more than I think it should.  The motor thrives over 3500 rpm, train yourself to let it turn faster, I think you would both be happier doing so.  It's only my opinion, but if you think I'm wrong talk to some Guzzi techs, or competent dealers, like Cadre, Hamlin Cycles, see what they say about your riding style?    I'm not saying this to be some sort of Dick, I just think you're missing the boat.

If you haven't seen this, watch it, something to think about.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhUI7MWE_Fc&t=11s

[rocker59]

You just need to keep the revs a bit higher. Which I do not like; I like engines that will pull effortlessly from very low revs and cruise barely above idle.

No over square Italian V-twin will meet your needs.  Guzzis thrive in the 4,000-6,000 rpm range.  Sure, in town you can get by with 3,000 rpm, but anything lower in the upper gears will lug the engine.  It's in the way they're engineered.  The Italians have a different philosophy from designers of USA twins and their Japanese competitors.

I remember when I rode Sportsters and how good the bike felt at 1800-2000 rpm.  It took me a minute to understand Guzzis and Ducatis when I began riding them in the mid-1990s.  Once I found the Italian sweet spot, it was heaven.

Now, I can fully admit that my Sport 1100 and my current V11 EVT sort of suck in town.  And, I do like the idea of something with lower gearing and better low rpm performance.  I also know that Guzzi will not fulfill that desire, and I'm starting to consider the possibility of picking up a Royal Enfield or Triumph to satisfy that desire.

[Mwether]

...
Now, I can fully admit that my Sport 1100 and my current V11 EVT sort of suck in town.  And, I do like the idea of something with lower gearing and better low rpm performance.  I also know that Guzzi will not fulfill that desire, and I'm starting to consider the possibility of picking up a Royal Enfield or Triumph to satisfy that desire.

Boy, howdy, this is helpful. Makes me wonder...and reemphasizes the importance of test rides.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

One word: Convert.  No shifting, no worries about lugging it.

Also, Loopframes with their 13 lb. flywheels are completely happy at low revs. It's rare for me to rev one higher than 4k or so, unless I'm out on the interstate.

[faffi]

I can live happily with many of you considering me laboring the engine, but I beg to differ. In my experience, laboring means lack of response when applying throttle, and/or unusual vibrations or pinging or whatever sound or behavior that suggest the engine is not happy.

During today's ride, I learned that the V9 has no problem pulling from well below 2000 rpm - it just does not want to run smoothly without load at such low engine speeds, regardless of gear. I took the bike down to 30 mph in 6th gear, just as a test, and the moment I opened the throttle it began to hunt. But when I opened the throttle enough to accelerate - still very little throttle required - it gained speed smoothly and without any additional vibrations. In fact, the engine smoothed out once under some load.

To those who fainted or yelled sacrilege by now - nope, I do not intend to ride around doing 30 mph in 6th gear. But as long as the engine is under light load - this test was on a perfectly flat road - my personal opinion is that no harm was done.

For the record, my V9 vibrate more the higher it revs. Or more uncomfortably, at least, because the thuds change into a buzz. Sitting at 6k rpm when I could be going the same speed doing 4k rpm is just a waste of fuel and added wear. Feel free to have a different opinion, that is totally fine with me. I do not pretend to have all the answers. If my Guzzi expire early in life, or show signs of premature wear, I will report back candidly and admit my mistake.

[rocker59]

the V9 has no problem pulling from well below 2000 rpm - it just does not want to run smoothly without load at such low engine speeds, regardless of gear. I took the bike down to 30 mph in 6th gear, just as a test, and the moment I opened the throttle it began to hunt. But when I opened the throttle enough to accelerate - still very little throttle required - it gained speed smoothly and without any additional vibrations. 

Again, this sounds like a fuel metering issue.  "surging" or "hunting" on light throttle is pretty common on injected motorcycles.  This can usually be tuned out.  Sometimes, it's as simple as getting the latest map download from the nearest dealer.  Or, you can do it yourself with a Beetle Map, or similar.

I had a 2003 BMW F650GS which did this.  It was annoying.  Sold it before resolving the issue.  My 2014 Guzzi V7 had a similar issue which was cured with an updated map download at the dealership.

[bad Chad]

yeah, I agree with 59.  The roamer I ride, doesn't exhibit the "hunting" behavior you describe.   It definitely sounds like a fueling issue.   And you make a workable case for your argument that no harm is taking place they way you are ridding.  I'm going to take mine down to 30 in 6th, and gently apply the throttle and see if I get similar results.

[Vagrant]

Just go put on 200 miles without ever dropping below 4000 RPM. Then you can tell us we are wrong!

[Zenermaniac]

2015/16-2017: Very forward footpegs
2018-2020: Less forward footpegs
2021-on: Engine power increased from 55 to 65 PS.

My 2017 has the less forward foot pegs.

[Zenermaniac]

For the record, my V9 vibrate more the higher it revs. Or more uncomfortably, at least, because the thuds change into a buzz. Sitting at 6k rpm when I could be going the same speed doing 4k rpm is just a waste of fuel and added wear. Feel free to have a different opinion, that is totally fine with me. I do not pretend to have all the answers. If my Guzzi expire early in life, or show signs of premature wear, I will report back candidly and admit my mistake.

     My Roamer is VERY smooth above 55mph in 5th gear and above 65mph in 6th. Whatever rpm that is, is it’s sweet spot. I only use 6th above 60mph. It’s kinda like an overdrive gear.
     Doing the canisterectomy thing made a very noticeable difference in my V9’s performance. I always had a vacuum when opening my tank. What I believe was occurring is when the vent valve goes bad (or poor design) the vacuum builds up in the tank it is somewhat counter effecting the fuel pump pressure leading to leaner fuel flow from the injectors. Now it’s a sweet running engine even with the factory map.

[bigbikerrick]

Listen to Charlie, he wont guide you wrong! Thats exactly what  bikes I had in mind...A Convert, or Eldo with the heavy flywheel.    I also like bikes that are comfortable just loafing along, not necessarily spinning up to higher rpms, although both Guzzis mentioned will do it when asked of them.
Rick.

[faffi]

Just go put on 200 miles without ever dropping below 4000 RPM. Then you can tell us we are wrong!

I have never suggested the engines cannot take. I reckon you could sit all day at 7k rpm without issues for the engine. However, I still prefer - cars or bikes - to run the lowest rpm the engine seems happy with. If for nothing else than it is better to listen to. For me.

[John A]

Something else to consider with operating at low rpms is the hammering effect on the driveline components. Guzzi’s will do it but be prepared to spend a little more money (cough choke cough hack) if you keep the bike long term.

[faffi]

I think the closest thing to a modern Loop is probably the Indian Scout series. Probably where I will be headed in a few years.

-AJ

https://ridermagazine.com/2017/12/11/indian-scout-bobber-vs-moto-guzzi-v9-bobber-vs-triumph-bonneville-bobber-comparo-review/

[texasmoto]

Why are you hellbent on getting something modern? It’s my understanding - at least with the various Japanese and one German motorcycle that I’ve owned - that once they are dialed in and running they are incredibly reliable. You might not want to learn how to get them dialed in, but it’s also been my experience that it costs about the same doing it yourself as buying one that is already mint.

For example, I recently bought a totally dead CB750 for $900.

After new tires, new fork seals, new battery, new brakes, carburetor kit, new brake lines, pads, having tires mounted, new seat, replacement headlight and turn signals, oil, oil filter, new clutch plates, and probably some other things I’m forgetting I’m in about $3500-$4500. If I went and spent that on a CB750 I’d get one that needs nothing and is good to go. It just so happens I enjoy wrenching so it’s no big deal to me.

However now that the bike is running and riding, it doesn’t need much other than gas and oil. At some point I’m sure the valve clearances will need to be checked again, as will the timing, but that’s probably at about 10k miles.

So don’t be afraid to buy an old bike. If it’s in good condition you’ll be fine.

[Kev m]

Why are you hellbent on getting something modern?

Maybe cause some people are tired of replacing:

After new tires, new fork seals, new battery, new brakes, carburetor kit, new brake lines, pads, having tires mounted, new seat, replacement headlight and turn signals, oil, oil filter, new clutch plates, and probably some other things I’m forgetting

And maybe for them $10k is play money but time isn't...