Tube + "tubeless"?

[moto]

Having had more than one recent experience with failed tubes in my T3's tires, I ask a question:

Is there any drawback to converting my rims to tubeless operation and then also reinstalling the tube inside the tire? Suspenders and a belt, you know.

To clarify, the inflated tube inside the tire would provide the pressure, but the airtight rim would make it possible to plug a nail hole on the road and re-inflate.

Also, the tube would keep pressure in if my tubeless conversion leaks.

I am asking only about this specific idea. I know there are plenty of other ways to go. Thanks.

Moto

[moto]

I now see that I would have the problem of making the tube's connection to the rim airtight at the valve stem. Still, hope springs eternal, and I await your advice.

[bigbikerrick]

The valve stem IS the issue with your idea.  Why keep a tube ? I have converted the borranis on my 73 eldorado 15 years ago, and its been perfect. I also did my converts spoke wheels 3 years ago, and also has been great. I did the steel /chromed wheels on my 2003 aluminum as well many years ago, with excellent results. Go tubeless, Sir. wheels will be much easier to balance, they dont lose air like tubes, and it makes tire mounting much easier if you mount your own tires like me. No "pinch" flats to worry about.
Rick.

[Perazzimx14]

If you want a second line of defence once you have tubeless tires buy a bottle or three of Ride-On tire sealant or the like install it and ride on

Tubes suck!

[faffi]

Tubeliss(TM) would be the safest option, but has its own pitfalls, like hard mounting of tires and not made for sustained high speed cruising. Cast wheels would be the simplest conversion for going tubeless, but perhaps not what you want.

Sealers, whether used in tubes (far less mess) or in tubeless applications, is not a full cure; puntures near the rim will typically not be sealed because of centripetal forces slinging the stuff outwards. Hence a tube puncture caused by a spoke or a valve defect will likely be the same with or without "slime".

Sealing the spokes (semi)permanent is something many does, but can be tricky to obtain a perfect seal, and may or may not have to be redone every time you need to tighten a spoke or more.

I run tubeless tires sans tubes on my Yamaha Virago. The rims are stamped TUBELESS, but the design in the beads are identical to the old tube tube rims. If air pressure drops low enough for the air to escape around the bead, in my experience it is not enough to just pump them back up; they will always have a leak between the tire and rim beads. So I have needed to use window cleaner or similar between the beads in order to obtain a good seal again every time I forgot to keep the tires properly inflated. I still consider this setup safer than using tubes, since tubes tend to lose all pressure almost instantly, with the tires immediately slipping off the beads, causing a loss of control of the bike. Tubeless applications usually give you enough warning to come to a safe stop. Ideally, I would want my rims to have "safety beads" that will keep the tire on the rim even with zero pressure, but that is not an (easy) option on my Virago. I believe the same is true for the older Guzzis with narrow (2.15in) cast wheels?

In conclusion, the ideal solution tend to be costly, leaving most of us with functional compromises.

[Dr. Enzo Toma]

For inserts like Tubliss and tire mousse be aware that they're meant for dirt bikes and not the higher pressure that you want for street riding. Pony up and buy the Outex kit to seal the rims. Of the many ways people try to save a dollar, DIY rim sealing with inferior duct-tape type products are among the things that end up being wasted money when they fail. You can always care a tube or tire sealant, tools, and a pump as a backup.

A reason you don't want to run a tube inside a tubeless tire and converted sealed rim is that it reduces the tire's effective load rating due to the added friction, and it may eat up whatever seal you put on the inside of the rim.

[Tom]

Don't put a bias-ply tube in a radial tire. 

[faffi]

For inserts like Tubliss .... be aware that they're meant for dirt bikes and not the higher pressure that you want for street riding.

It is not the pressure that is the issue - the Tubeliss itself is inflated to about 100 PSI - but the heat that comes with high speed riding over distance can result in the Tubeliss failing. Mousse does not use any tire pressure but are very affected by temperature and will literally melt away.

[Alfetta]

pulled the tube from my dirt squirt and filled it full of tennis balls...   nice no more pinched tube issues and good low pressure grip
may be a bit soft for a streeter, but it would help my V7³ rear comfort level !
wonder if it would wallow through an aggressive corner ?

probably...

[Dr. Enzo Toma]

It is not the pressure that is the issue - the Tubeliss itself is inflated to about 100 PSI - but the heat that comes with high speed riding over distance can result in the Tubeliss failing. Mousse does not use any tire pressure but are very affected by temperature and will literally melt away.

I mean on the low pressure side, the actual tire pressure. Yes the Tubliss bladder is run with high pressure, but the rest of the tire is only intended to be inflated to around 10 psi with it - not a suitable pressure for street riding, which is the same issue with trying to use a tire mousse for street riding, the proper tire pressure necessary to support the shape of the tire for prolonged road use is not obtained.

[faffi]

I believe that is a common confusion, since they write "use 0-10 PSI" on their website. But that is in order to gain maximum traction in deep sand and mud, where low pressure is a benefit. With TUbliss, you do not have to worry about punctures from a pinched tube regardless of tire pressure. I cannot see any issues with running higher tire pressures with TUbliss, nor do they state any such thing that I can find.

From their website:
What TIRE PRESSURE do I run in my tire?
The ideal pressure for you and your bike depends on many factors. However you do not need to worry about pinch flats, this is the most common risk with lower tire pressures. But now you can tune the tire pressure similar to suspension. Still the biggest variable is the tire construction. The stiffer the sidewalls the lower the pressure you can run for more traction and a plusher ride. You can compare tires sidewall strength by doing the “TIRE SIDEWALL TEST” or stepping on the tires sidewall with your toe –“Tire Sidewall Test” below. But in general we suggest starting off with 2psi less than you would run with traditional inner tubes and then drop the pressure or “TUNE” it to the optimum pressure much in the same way you use the clickers on your suspension. Keep dropping the pressure 1psi at a time until performance drops off (then go back up 1-2 psi).


NOTE: They do not recommend TUbliss for riding on the street, although lots of people do so, even on heavier bikes. I would not recommend it, but nor would I worry using TUbliss on the road here in chilly Norway where speed is mostly kept below 55 mph. YMMV.

[nbags]

the difference between tube tubeless is wheel design is different tubeless tire have a ridge by the outside of the wheel which kind of keep tire in place if sudden a lost, tube tires do not.i had numerous bikes with tubes biggest issue is unexperienced person mounting or loose spokes that cause air pressure loss. just my opinion

[moto]

Thanks to all 490 of you for taking a look at my question, and for the helpful replies.

I suppose my idea is a little bit too much like suspenders and a belt, that is, why do you need both if you have a good example of one or the other? So I think I'll try to perfect the tubeless sealing and forget the tube. I won't offer comments on particular products or ideas because I just intended to get advice, not start debates.

One thing that begins to seem particularly disturbing about my idea is the inability to tell whether or not the inner tube has been compromised if the tire is still firmly inflated. Kind of the Schroedinger's inner tube thing, if you know what I mean.

[Dr. Enzo Toma]

I believe that is a common confusion, since they write "use 0-10 PSI" on their website. But that is in order to gain maximum traction in deep sand and mud, where low pressure is a benefit. With TUbliss, you do not have to worry about punctures from a pinched tube regardless of tire pressure. I cannot see any issues with running higher tire pressures with TUbliss, nor do they state any such thing that I can find.

I'd recommend contacting them about it to get the word from the horse's mouth. This has come up a lot in the adv rider community and when I spoke with Jeff @ Tubliss about it he stated that that max PSI one should run in a tire with the bladder installed is 25 psi to avoid damage to the bladder. And obviously there's the disclaimer that it's not for street use and not DOT approved ;)

One thing that begins to seem particularly disturbing about my idea is the inability to tell whether or not the inner tube has been compromised if the tire is still firmly inflated. Kind of the Schroedinger's inner tube thing, if you know what I mean.

The valve stem should prevent this paradox from happening. If you run a tube and it punctures, even in a sealed wheel and tubeless tire, the air will come out at the valve stem hole unless you are sealing the tube in there.

[blackcat]

I have not attempted the tubeless conversion on my spoke rimmed 1000S tires and not because I'm against it but mostly because I have not had a flat on that bike in years since I started using Slime in the tubes.