Best Moto Guzzi for Long-Distance Touring?

[Kev m]

The more comments I read about the Norge the more I wish I had tried one. I will stick with what I have. I will ride the Mandello as long as I can then it will be the V7. I am not getting older, I am old. I've lasted a lot longer than I ever thought I would.
kk

The CARC chassis and big block motors really were something else. Middle class weight so they were light enough to still be pretty nimble but like a freight train on the highway. They were really pretty darn good and most things.

Our smallblocks are a pretty different experience. They are much lighter and seem to carry it lower too. They aren't nearly as powerful and don't feel like freight trains but they are much more nimble.

I like em both, but the V7 really speaks to me.

[Kev m]

The Stelvio 1200 was 545lbs dry so pushing 600lbs with fuel and oils then add another 60 or 70lbs if you outfitted with hard panniers and top case. At around 675lbs in touring trim its not what I'd consider a "middleweight".

Our Monster and bikes like it are around 400# wet

My last Road King was 800# wet, but others like it are 900#

So if you're not going to call 500-600# bikes middleweight, what ARE you gonna call that?

[Moparnut72]

Compared to a 1400 California that is svelte. I am not changing now but a middle weight California type bike with the V100 engine would be ideal for me. Like a bigger V7.
kk

[Dirk_S]

Our Monster and bikes like it are around 400# wet

My last Road King was 800# wet, but others like it are 900#

So if you're not going to call 500-600# bikes middleweight, what ARE you gonna call that?

Maybe there are two camps—one that considers the bikes’ size in relation to other bikes on the market, and one that considers the bikes’ size in comparison to the average human’s size and capability. I get it if technically a bike should only be compared with other bikes, but a 500 lb bike will always be a big bike to me. If it’s difficult to lift and maneuver…

[Kev m]

Maybe there are two camps—one that considers the bikes’ size in relation to other bikes on the market, and one that considers the bikes’ size in comparison to the average human’s size and capability. I get if technically a bike should only be compared with other bikes, but a 500 lb bike will always be a big bike to me. If it’s difficult to lift and maneuver…

Huh?

Either way they're all much bigger than us.

Are you telling me you're going to bench press our Monster?

I mean middleweight is middle sized. What bike would be equal to the weight of an average sized person.

Sorry man if you were making a logical point you didn't get it across to me.

Oh and you lost me on a 500# being difficult to lift and maneuver. My petite wife put more miles on her two 550# Sportsters without any issue than she's put on her 400# Monster which is smaller than our V7's.

Which reminds me of a related point on weight. How heavy a bike feels can vary dramatically with center of gravity and seat height.

I've had taller and lighter bikes (R1100RS or Breva 1100) that felt just as heavy or heavier than my actually heavier bikes that sat lower (like my Evo RK).

[DoubleGuzzi]

So if you're not going to call 500-600# bikes middleweight, what ARE you gonna call that?

Dry, 360 to 460lbs is what I'd class as middleweight; lightweight below and heavyweight above. Greater than ~560lbs are just 2-wheel monsters in my book.
Note: capacity can also be used to define 'weight' class and anything over say 1200cc is a monster bike, Circa 400 - 750 being middleweights.

How heavy a bike feels can vary dramatically with center of gravity and seat height.

That is very true. Headstock height can also alter perception - an F650GS is pretty bulky and heavy for its capacity but the semi-offroad stance from the headstock makes it more manageable. A race oriented Laverda 750S Formula seems much more ungainly at times, even though it's only around 170Kg.

P.S. Seeing as a Monster was mentioned.. I loved my relatively tiny M600 whose weight was firmly in the lower middleweight class and seriously considered replacing it with a M900, which for just a few Kg/lbs more pushes out much more power/torque on a virtually identical sized chassis. The capacity doesn't make it a middleweight though its dry weight does.

[Kev m]

Dry, 360 to 460lbs is what I'd class as middleweight; lightweight below and heavyweight above. Greater than ~560lbs are just 2-wheel monsters in my book.

That's a pretty narrow point of view and makes most modern Guzzis "2-wheel Monsters" and gets damn close to including a V7 850.

Name a street bike below 360#?

I'm sure there are some dual sports, and maybe some scooters, but almost nothing else. Maybe Svartpillen 401 or a few like it, but effectively there are no lightweight bikes with your numbers.

And I don't get taking literally half or more of the possible models across multiple manufacturers and calling them monsters in a single category where the difference in weight from the smallest to the largest is more than the difference between the smallest in the smallest category and the largest in the middle category by double. That doesn't make any sense.

[DoubleGuzzi]

That's a pretty narrow point of view and makes most modern Guzzis "2-wheel Monsters" and gets damn close to including a V7 850.

Above 250Kg dry weight and they do become serious contenders in the 2-wheel monster group, IMO. I once thought I'd like a BMW K100RS 16V, they since grew into being a "big bus".. 1100 and upwards.
The Svartpilen is a reasonable example that you gave (wasn't too impressed with the detail finishing on the one I saw up close).
My particular weight groupings were never intended to be a hard & fast rule; guideline figures, if you like. 

Forgot to add, modern additions to motorcycles have generally pushed up weights unhindered. There was a time when classic Brit bikes were seen as under-powered and heavy, then along came a flurry of much lighter alternatives for decades. Seems like we've gone retro in more than one way (though usually not power output).

PPS. regarding weights, I was converting to old money, so difficult to relate to kilos and throw up weird values. 

"Aprilia reveal 230hp, 165kg RSV4 X Ex3ma superbike"

[Kev m]

Above 250Kg dry weight and they do become serious contenders in the 2-wheel monster group, IMO. I once thought I'd like a BMW K100RS 16V, they since grew into being a "big bus".. 1100 and upwards.
The Svartpilen is a reasonable example that you gave (wasn't too impressed with the detail finishing on the one I saw up close).
My particular weight groupings were never intended to be a hard & fast rule; guideline figures, if you like. 

You realize that your groupings are so narrow that (I was just checking BMWs current range against your proposed classes) out of 38 models only one maybe two (the 313cc single cylinders get anywhere NEAR lightweight) and two out of three scooters are approaching 2-wheel monsters (one's 476# and one is 509#).

My point is there's a disconnect between your preferences and a logical classification of the marketplace as a whole.

In the end it's just semantics and matters not past this discussion. But I'll stick to calling CARCs middleweights and smallblocks lightweights. The heavyweights are MUCH bigger, like x2 of the lightweights. And still x1.5 of the middle. That's the definition of middle.

[DoubleGuzzi]

^ and you ignore the under 300cc motorcycles entirely. 

[Kev m]

^ and you ignore the under 300cc motorcycles entirely. 

How?

I'm talking street motorcycles. If anything I'm ignoring scooters calling them a different animal.

But how many 125cc and 250cc street motorcycles are there?

And maybe I'm ignoring them to some extent because they represent a miniscule part of the market in my country. Are they a bigger player and presence on the roads in the UK?

Hell even the Honda Rebel 300 is 364# not far from our Monster. I mean like a backpack and tail bag away.

Oohhhhh ok there's the Grom/Monkey/Super Cub/Trail 125 etc in the low to mid 200# range.

You know how they are marketed here as "Mini Moto". I'm not even sure they are legal on my US highways. Yeah I'm ignoring those. They're not lightweights, they are featherweights.

"Aprilia reveal 230hp, 165kg RSV4 X Ex3ma superbike"

You keep talking dry when I started this with wet.

That's a bit of a cop out since you can't ride without a battery, oil, or fuel.

But when I lookup the RSV4, which I think we can agree is one of the smaller bikes of it's type, I'm getting 180 kg (397#) dry and 208 kg (458#) wet.

That's a big difference in that it arguably spans your categories and/or when talking about lightweight bikes it means there's a bigger percentage in difference between dry and wet.

But I continue to see your categories as unrealistic in the big picture of what exists.

Not that fault your interest in a smaller segment or even need to concentrate on it personally. That's not what this semantics exercise has been about.

[twowheeladdict]

It depends on what riding position, type of roads, how much you want to carry, and the distance you plan to cover each day.

The bottom line is that the bike doesn't matter compared to getting out there and enjoying the ride.

[Kev m]

The Lard King and the other 1/2 ton rolling road iron to me are bloated extreme heavy weights. To me 500-600lb bikes are heavyweights. My R1250GSA is 590lbs wet weight and it certainly does not identify as a "middleweight".

Well you and Double can identify any way you want, and even call it what you want, but that doesn't reflect factual reality.

If bikes vary from even 100# to 1000# then the middle is around 600#.

Edit - ok I rounded up, technically the middle is 550 which is why I said "around". But even then since 100# was an artificially low starting point chosen for simplicity we could have started at 200 and still not doing any actual bikes right?

[DoubleGuzzi]

And maybe I'm ignoring them to some extent because they represent a miniscule part of the market in my country. Are they a bigger player and presence on the roads in the UK?

My bad. I forgot this is an American forum and I should stick to Stateside relevance. Perhaps I better close the door on my way out/put the lid back on my wee box/hoose/garage. Worldwide, 125-250cc bikes, as opposed to scooters (I suggest one Googles the difference) are plentiful.

AI Overview

Middleweight motorcycles typically have engine displacements ranging from 500cc to 800cc, offering a balance of power, agility, and comfort for various riding styles and experiences.
Here's a more detailed look at what defines middleweight motorcycles:

    Engine Displacement:
    The defining characteristic of a middleweight motorcycle is its engine displacement, which falls within the 500cc to 800cc range.
    Versatility:
    Middleweight motorcycles are known for their versatility, making them suitable for commuting, touring, and even some track days.
    Popular Models:
    Some popular middleweight motorcycles include the Yamaha MT-07, Honda CB650R, Kawasaki Z650, and Suzuki SV650.
    Advantages:
    Middleweight motorcycles offer a good balance of power and fuel efficiency, making them a popular choice for riders seeking a fun and practical riding experience.
    Naked vs. Fared:
    Middleweight motorcycles are available in both naked and faired (sport) configurations, catering to different riding preferences.

[PJPR01]

715 miles on the Locomotive this weekend, while listening to Jethro Tull from time to time.  Kev nailed the description...it's a freight train and LOVES to run.  Norge never fails to bring miles of smiles...absolutely LOVE it!

A few pics from a museum stop on the Grand Tour of Texas today...some very special historical bikes in here...

[michaell32]

The Lard King and the other 1/2 ton rolling road iron to me are bloated extreme heavy weights. To me 500-600lb bikes are heavyweights. My R1250GSA is 590lbs wet weight and it certainly does not identify as a "middleweight".

I agree with this opinion.  I grew up riding sport bikes but when I moved out to Utah I decided to slow down.  A yamaha roadstar popped up around me for a low price because it needed work.  When I fixed it and rode it around I was miserable.  The bike was way too heavy along with a couple of other annoyances.  I sold that and picked up a California EV that needed some work.  It was an easy fix and a huge improvement but it still feels a bit heavy for my preference.  I then bought a DR650 and felt at home with how nimble I am on it.  For every mile my Guzzi gets the DR gets 5-6.  If I ever decide to sell my California, it's replacement will weigh 450lbs or less.  I consider those 600 and up bikes overweight, not heavyweight.

[Kev m]

My bad. I forgot this is an American forum and I should stick to Stateside relevance. Perhaps I better close the door on my way out/put the lid back on my wee box/hoose/garage. Worldwide, 125-250cc bikes, as opposed to scooters (I suggest one Googles the difference) are plentiful.

Wait you get annoyed at my US reference, point out that a lot of the world uses smaller bikes which may or may not be street legal or classified as scooters on my argument and then post something from Google that agrees with my point?

You Brits gotta funny way of "winning" 

That's probably my Irish coming out this St. Paddy's Eve.

But if, even if we accept 125cc models used on the street worldwide we still wind up with an average size of what's available (or at least median) value in the 600# range at center no?

Michael32, I say my exercise in semantics wasn't about subjective preference, I was asking about objective reality.

Keep in mind that my garage currently only holds 3 bikes between 400-450# wet. That doesn't change my perception of what's available, it just defines my preferences to be the same as yours despite your desire to redefine how they actually fit in the big picture of things.

[Stretch]

This discussion has slid a bit from the original subject, now hasn't it? 

I started riding in the 1970s, and I still think of a 750 as a BIG machine.
Now people market them as, "beginner bikes", which I think is totally insane.

I think of my KLR as a middleweight, and that's north of 450 lbs.

The 1200 Trophy is a BIG bike - definitely in the heavyweight class.
The 1400 California Touring and the Rocket III Touring are Super HeavyWeights.
They make a 1980s Gold Wing seem svelte and flickable by comparison.

All of 'em are a lot of fun on longer trips. They each have their limitations and quirks.
The KLR isn't so happy on interstates. It'll do the job, but it's working hard, and is
a little bit flighty at higher speeds. The big Cali is not at home on rough logging roads.
Don't park the Rocket nose first in a downhill-sloping parking space. And so on.....

                                             -Stretch

[Bulldog9]

It's all relative.... Most CARC bikes are in the 500-600 lbs.

Rough weights from memory:
GRiSO is 490
Breva 11/1200 is 500
Stelvio is 550
Norge is 560

That's all middle weight to me especially as 1100-1200 cc bikes.

My Concours was 690, FJR 1300 was 640, FZ 1 485. The Indian Scout is 550, and There's HUNDREDS of bikes in this weight class and range and displacement.

Look at the weights for 13, 14, 1600 CC bikes, nevermind all the big fat cruiser bikes, and the CARCS are light by comparison if not solidly middle weight.

But YMMV.....

[Kev m]

You might want to recheck your math. Isn' the middle of nine hundred (900) 450?

So there are bikes that weigh zero # in your world. Interesting. 

[rocker59]

That's a pretty narrow point of view and makes most modern Guzzis "2-wheel Monsters" and gets damn close to including a V7 850.

Name a street bike below 360#?
 

There aren't many..    Janus Halcyon 450 at 345 lbs dry.  Honda CB300R at 316 lbs.  Ducati Hypermotard 698 Mono at 333 lbs.  KTM 390 Duke at 363 lbs.

I'm with you.  The only "heavyweight" Guzzi I can recall is the California 1400.  Everything else they make I would call "middleweight".  400-600 lbs.

[Kev m]

Nope using your numbers 100# - 1000# is a dfference of 900#. What is 1/2 of or the "middle" of 900? Its not 600.

900 is the range not the top value.

So if you did your math correctly you'd have to add 450 to the lower value of 100 which would give you 550 not 450.

But I'm ok with a range in the middle. I mean everything a pound under the middle isn't lightweight and everything a pound over isn't heavyweight. So we wind up with a loose 500-600.

[Bulldog9]

There aren't many..    Janus Halcyon 450 at 345 lbs dry. 

I'm with you.  The only "heavyweight" Guzzi I can recall is the California 1400.  Everything else they make I would call "middleweight".  400-600 lbs.

Exactly my thinking.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

There aren't many..    Janus Halcyon 450 at 345 lbs dry.  Honda CB300R at 316 lbs.  Ducati Hypermotard 698 Mono at 333 lbs.  KTM 390 Duke at 363 lbs.

I'm with you.  The only "heavyweight" Guzzi I can recall is the California 1400.  Everything else they make I would call "middleweight".  400-600 lbs.

Are we going by dry weight or curb? The Cal 3 FF is 595 dry, well over 600 with a full tank of gas, etc.
https://www.motorcyclespecs.co.za/model/moto%20guzzi/moto_guzzi_california_III%20CV%2087.htm

[Kev m]

Are we going by dry weight or curb? The Cal 3 FF is 595 dry, well over 600 with a full tank of gas, etc.
https://www.motorcyclespecs.co.za/model/moto%20guzzi/moto_guzzi_california_III%20CV%2087.htm

I'm talking wet personally.

THAT SAID - I am also talking gray areas. Like 601 doesn't equal a heavyweight if the HEAVYWEIGHTS are ranging up to 1000+ - like the middle range should topout somewhere in the high 600s give or take to be a reasonable category.

And, as I've said a 700# Harley can feel as "light" as a taller/but lighter 600# BMW/Guzzi - so there's that.

BUT since we're talking data here are some late-model Cali weights to consider:

Jackal:   542   dry 572 wet
Black Eagle: 553   dry 589 wet
Cal-Vin:   580   dry 616 wet

All seem to reasonably fall in the upper portion of that middle category, especially when compared to taller CARCs that carry their weight up higher.

[twowings]

The Flying Fortress wasn't exactly svelte, either.
Karma has been kind to me in that I've been able to avoid even sitting on an HD but I fail to see how what they manufacture could feel "light".

[Kev m]

The Flying Fortress wasn't exactly svelte, either.
Karma has been kind to me in that I've been able to avoid even sitting on an HD but I fail to see how what they manufacture could feel "light".

Center of gravity plays a huge part.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Whichever one you have!

I toured on my V7III, a 2 Valve Griso, a California II, VII Sport, Eldorado 850, a V9

[Bulldog9]

The Flying Fortress wasn't exactly svelte, either.
Karma has been kind to me in that I've been able to avoid even sitting on an HD but I fail to see how what they manufacture could feel "light".

A fat pig to move around the garage, unstable and awkward at sub 30moh, light and nimble at 35-85 mph (amazingly so) and unstable and front end float at speeds above 85.  I sold mine within 6 months due to the above.

NO regrets.

[Matteo]

My favorite is my V85tt, 07 Norge is a close second but dash and leg position not as good as the TT.