Ambassador (4spd) vs Eldorado (5spd) for low speed backroads

[UndergroundLare]

Hi,

I am a long time reader of the forum and this is my first post. I have ridden all kinds of motorcycles over the years, and now starting to become interested in the Ambassador and Eldorado.

Which engine, transmission, final drive combo would be best for riding slow on 2 lane backroads? The speed range would be about 15mph to 50mph but I am most interested in how the bike feels at 25mph. I know some v-twins can be unhappy at low rpm.

I looked up the overall gear ratios online, and made a speed vs rpm table. It looks like the ambassador might be better suited for low speed but real world experience is key. Please let me know if you have any thoughts on which bike feels best at 25mph.

Overall Gear Ratios:

Ambassador - 757cc
Low gear 1 to 13.413
Second gear 1 to 8.015
Third gear 1 to 5.735
High gear 1 to 4.510

Eldorado - 844cc
Low gear 1 to 11.424
Second gear 1 to 7.929
Third gear 1 to 5.980
Forth gear 1 to 4.964
High gear 1 to 4.284


RPM vs Speed:

[Shorty]

Howdy. I've owned both. I liked the 4 speed better for hills and low speeds. The 4 speeds are older. Not sure about today's parts availability, but I once (like 25 years ago) bought the last bushings that Harpers had on hand when 4th gear in my Ambassador began to howl. Maybe one of the professional rebuilders will chime in, but my guess is there are more 5 speed parts around if you should need them. Same with the rear drive for 5 speed.

[bigbikerrick]

I have ridden both, and own a 5 speed eldorado. I like the 5 speed much better. With the addition of a cush drive rear wheel setup from an 850 T, I would say its the best.  The cush drive does wonders for drivetrain smoothness, as well improve the shift quality. You also get the 2LS rear brake as a "bonus"!
Rick.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Howdy. I've owned both. I liked the 4 speed better for hills and low speeds. The 4 speeds are older. Not sure about today's parts availability, but I once (like 25 years ago) bought the last bushings that Harpers had on hand when 4th gear in my Ambassador began to howl. Maybe one of the professional rebuilders will chime in, but my guess is there are more 5 speed parts around if you should need them. Same with the rear drive for 5 speed.

The 4 spd. whines and is clunky, but I love 'em. For backroads, I prefer the 4 spds. gearing (especially with the 8/37 rear drive, rather than the more common 8/35). 3rd gear is about all one needs once moving.

The 4 spd. has quite a few advantages, it's slightly lighter, and more simple. All of the bearing except one are common and inexpensive. They're quite robust and don't have any of the issues that early 5 spds. (shaft separation, flanges on the inner races of the needle bearing fracturing, bearings drifting out of the case or inner races drifting off the shaft, shift return spring breaking, oil puking out the breather). Most of the 4 spd. issues are due to miles or lack of maintenance.

Yes, the 4th gear bushing was unavailable, but I had Joe Kenny make a batch of 24 a few years ago. I kept about a dozen and sold the rest to MG Cycle (looks like they sold them all). It wouldn't be hard to have more made if the demand was there.

[John A]

What Charlie says. I spent a lot of time on  forest roads on Ambassadors and for generally knocking around the back roads they are great. I never had trouble with the 4 speeds, ran forever. sometimes I wished they had a granny low.

[Turin]

I've ridden my first generation Ambo on the freeway in Arizona... in the summer. It'll do it, but it doesn't love it. They work great on back roads and work fine in normal traffic. 

[brider]

Well, the ask was which bike (tranny) @ 25 mph, which I would guess is possibly no highrr than 2nd gear, maybe just 1st. Seems too slow a speed to make a judgement about 4 sp vs 5 sp, but that's the ask.

[Tkelly]

Ride each one before you buy ,seller should be ok with a slow test ride.

[UndergroundLare]

Thank you everybody for your responses. It seems like after reading all your personal experiences, most are suggesting the 4 speed is slightly better suited to 25mph. I have a lot of 25mph roads near me so I wanted to make sure the Ambassador and Eldorado are still happy at that speed. It may come down to whichever model comes up for sale that is in the best shape.

I often categorize bikes based on the "speed where they perform best." Here are some examples:

Honda Grom: 0-35mph
450cc Supermoto: 10-50mph
BMW R60/6 Airhead: 15-70mph
Early Ducati Monsters: 30-75mph
Ducati Superbikes: 40-120mph

These speed ranges are approximate. The general idea is that a grom is in its sweet spot at 25mph while a Ducati Superbike (996,998,1098,1198) with stock gearing is almost unridable at such a low speed.

I have some more loop frame questions that I may end up posting in a new thread - to keep the topics organized.

[UndergroundLare]

Ride each one before you buy ,seller should be ok with a slow test ride.

Oh I absolutely will test ride before buying. One must act quickly when a really great old bike comes up though so I might not have a chance to try each transmission. I'll be keeping everyones experiences in mind when I go out to look at one. Thanks!

[UndergroundLare]

The 4 spd. whines and is clunky, but I love 'em.

I have zero experience with these bikes - but I thought a 4 speed and 5 speed would have the same amount of whine / gear noise. I found this chart comparing all the old loop frame models and it shows that the early V700 had straight cut gears, but the Ambassador and Eldorado are supposed to both have helically cut gears.

https://www.thisoldtractor.com/moto_guzzi_loopframe_model_differences.html

Does an Ambassador 4 speed whine more than a Eldorado 5 speed?
Does an Ambassador 4 speed clunk more when shifting gears?

I have a BMW R60/6 so I am used to some clunks in the gearbox :)

 

[AJ Huff]

There used to be a long standing joke on the Loop List with Greg Bender  about the superiority of the 4 speed. I say joke but he did really feel that way.

I consider my Ambo a 3 speed. I "might" bump it up to 4th at 55, it depends more on if it's a long haul or if I think I might be stopping soon. I don't go over 55 on my Ambo.

25 mph is 1st all the time for me.

-AJ

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

I have zero experience with these bikes - but I thought a 4 speed and 5 speed would have the same amount of whine / gear noise. I found this chart comparing all the old loop frame models and it shows that the early V700 had straight cut gears, but the Ambassador and Eldorado are supposed to both have helically cut gears.

https://www.thisoldtractor.com/moto_guzzi_loopframe_model_differences.html

Does an Ambassador 4 speed whine more than a Eldorado 5 speed?
Does an Ambassador 4 speed clunk more when shifting gears?

I have a BMW R60/6 so I am used to some clunks in the gearbox :)

The earliest 4 spds. (V700) had all straight-cut gears. After complaints about them being loud, it was changed to a straight-cut first gear and helical 2nd thru 4th. By the end of (civilian, US model) V700 production they were all helical. That qualifier "civilian, US model" is there because the V700 was built for police and military use up until 1976. I think those late ones had 5 spds.

The 4 spd. does whine a bit more than a 5 spd. in my experience (over 100k miles in the seat of V700s and Ambos). They also clunk a bit more - the gears in a 4 spd. run on bushings (vs. needle bearings in a 5 spd.) and are heavier than those in a 5 spd.

 

[UndergroundLare]

Thank you for pointing out all the differences. This will help me in my search for a nice loop frame.