V7 Kaifa Forks Diagram

[DoubleGuzzi]

This may have been pointed out before but a search of the site didn't throw up a result.

I was changing fork seals yesterday and prior to rebuilding the 1st leg, I thought I'd check the parts diagram..
From service station manual:



Part number 12 doesn't connect direct to 14, as shown but connects to the underside of 10. Strictly speaking, part 12 should be displayed below/above the lower bushing, part number 11.

Just saying. 

[DoubleGuzzi]

Additional info: I've seen mentioned on a few threads about forks, that only fluid level is specified..
From the "V7III Service Station Manual" PDF:

Characteristic
Oil level (from sleeve rim, without the spring
and with stem at end of stroke)
120 +/- 1.5 mm (4.72 +/- 0.06 in)
Oil quantity (for each stanchion)
385 +/- 2 cc (23.49 +/- 0.12 cu in)

[Dirk_S]

Thanks for pointing out the part location error. I’ve never rebuilt or taken forks apart before—other than replacing the stock springs with slightly longer ones—so it’s nice to to aware when the Guzzi manuals are giving false or incomplete info…because that’s a rarity <insert strong sarcastic tone here>

[DoubleGuzzi]

Interestingly I drained out only about 350ml of oil. Even considering the residual coating on internal parts, that wouldn't account for the 'missing' 35ml. Given other items that I've discovered since delivery in January (such as front mudguard being replaced backwards), I don't hold much/any faith in the stealer dealer expertise - they were a MG dealership at the time.
For better or worse, I've put in 270ml of 10wt oil. Combined with K-tech linear springs and cheap preload adjusters, that'll be quite a deviation from standard. 

Tips
The forks were very straightforward to do compared to some.
I loosen the top caps and lower "stanchion retainer" bolts prior to removing them from the yokes. Just don't over loosen the lower ones unless you want to use them as drain bolts too! Using the stanchion as a slide hammer, the old seal popped out with little effort. Using the old seal to press the replacement in was also simple. Temporarily replacing the spring, spacer and top cap applies enough pressure to allow the bottom bolt to be tightened enough for the initial rebuild. I put the nearly reassembled forks back on, prior to fully tightening the lower bolts, then remove the tops caps, to fill the oil using a large (300ml) syringe.

[Kev m]

This may have been pointed out before but a search of the site didn't throw up a result.

I was changing fork seals yesterday and prior to rebuilding the 1st leg, I thought I'd check the parts diagram..
From service station manual:



Part number 12 doesn't connect direct to 14, as shown but connects to the underside of 10. Strictly speaking, part 12 should be displayed below/above the lower bushing, part number 11.

Just saying. 

Do you still have them apart? If you do look again.

14 (the fork piston) goes inside 10 (inner fork tube) and can protrude out of the bottom of the tube into the outer fork tube/fork lower/axle holder.

1 bolts 12 (the fork lock piece) to the outer fork (4) and I believe the bottom of 14 (fork piston). As a matter of fact it's common place to place the piston (14) in the inner tube (10) so it extends out the bottom, then place the lock piece (12) on the piston and hold them upward at an angle with the piston on top when inserting the inner tube (10) back into the fork lower (4).

The bolt (1) is installed through the bottom of the lower (4) and tightened after assembly so spring pressure is holding the piston and lock piece in place (keeping them from turning).


The capacity spec is approximate for a reason, the level is the only thing that's important during assembly (other than using capacity to estimate how much you'll need and start adding before measuring or drawing off to reach the proper level.

[DoubleGuzzi]

14 (the fork piston) goes inside 10 (inner fork tube) and can protrude  etc.

.. using capacity to estimate how much you'll need and start adding before measuring or drawing off to reach the proper level.

You're fundamentally describing the same things though I beg to differ/clarify specifically on the parts that I mentioned. The "buffer" part 12 doesn't directly attach to the piston (part 14) but passes through a conical section on the underside of the stanchion (part 10). The bolt (part 1) passes through 4 (lower), 12 (buffer), then 10 (stanchion), to screw into 14 (piston).
Your description of the fork piston protruding through the stanchion is another way of looking at the same thing but still doesn't make the diagram correct.  It can't do that whilst the buffer is in the way, as shown.

I'm not disputing the use of level adjustment, rather than only fill capacity, though I reckon I for one, wouldn't notice any significant difference.

[Kev m]

You're fundamentally describing the same things though I beg to differ/clarify specifically on the parts that I mentioned. The "buffer" part 12 doesn't directly attach to the piston (part 14) but passes through a conical section on the underside of the stanchion (part 10). The bolt (part 1) passes through 4 (lower), 12 (buffer), then 10 (stanchion), to screw into 14 (piston).
Your description of the fork piston protruding through the stanchion is another way of looking at the same thing but still doesn't make the diagram correct. ;)

I'm not disputing the use of level adjustment, rather than only fill capacity, though I reckon I for one, wouldn't notice any significant difference.

There are threads in the piston right?

But there are no threads in the stanchion?

Can the buffer not fit all the way through the bottom of the stanchion?

I haven't pulled this particular fork apart but all the ones on JAPanInc. products I've worked with the buffer fits onto the piston. They both reside inside the stanchion, but no part of the stanchion fits between them.

Now maybe this is different, but the diagram looks basically the same as dozens of other standard forks in describing.

But on all the similar ones I've worked with you literally stick the piston through and out the bottom of the stanchion and place the buffer on the end of the piston then put everything in the lower.

I'll post some photos tomorrow and you can tell me what's different.

[DoubleGuzzi]

There are threads in the piston right?
Correct
But there are no threads in the stanchion?
Correct
Can the buffer not fit all the way through the bottom of the stanchion?
Nope (not obvious, if so!)

I'll reiterate/reword that the bottom of the stanchion has a conical inset, that matches the taper at the top of the buffer.

(When reassembling the 1st fork, I initially put the buffer on the end of the stanchion but after a quick inspection realised "That's not right", so upon seeing the aforementioned chamfer at the bottom of the stanchion, I repositioned it. During disassembly of the 2nd fork, I paid much more attention to the sequence.)

[Kev m]

There are threads in the piston right?
Correct
But there are no threads in the stanchion?
Correct
Can the buffer not fit all the way through the bottom of the stanchion?
Nope (not obvious, if so!)

Ahhh wait, don't know what I was thinking with that last one. But you're not telling me anything that disagrees with what I was saying then.

If the buffer doesn't pass through the bottom of the stanchion it must sit on the end of the piston that protrudes out the bottom of the stanchion? Especially since the buffer will be bolted to the inside bottom of the fork lower and the stanchion will move up and down inside the lower.

If the buffer was fixed to the stanchion AND the lower the fork couldn't function to provide suspension movement.

[DoubleGuzzi]

If the buffer doesn't pass through the bottom of the stanchion it must sit on the end of the piston that protrudes out the bottom of the stanchion? Especially since the buffer will be bolted to the inside bottom of the fork lower and the stanchion will move up and down inside the lower.

If the buffer was fixed to the stanchion AND the lower the fork couldn't function to provide suspension movement.

Agreed. I think that the buffer creates a gap between stanchion and lower, for a sludge trap, if nothing else. (Though the softer aluminium will play a part.)

[Kev m]

This fork came off a CB500x (and these photos are from the www.cyclepedia.com repair manual for the CB500x), so this is a Showa, not Kaifa (because I can't find any JAPanInc. products for which I've written manuals that specifically use Kaifa). But I believe they are very similar designs from the exploded views and, as I mentioned earlier, most conventional fork exploded views I've worked with look basically the same as the Kaifa one shown earlier.

So I hope it helps illustrate what I was talking about.

When you removed the stanchion (inner fork tube) from the lower (outer fork tube) the piston was still in the stanchion (unless you specifically removed it earlier) and likely the buffer (fork lock piece) stayed in the lower. Note that on this fork both the bushings are installed on the stanchion, but sometimes the bushing or bushings are installed directly in the top of the fork lower.



You then removed the piston and rebound spring from the top of the stanchion.



Then you usually recover the buffer (lock piece) from the lower.



During assembly you stick the piston w/ rebound spring back into the top of the stanchion and let the end protrude out of the bottom, then you place the buffer (lock piece) on the end of the piston. This also shows the relationship of the two inside the fork lower once they are bolted together and why the exploded view shows it that way. Note: you don't HAVE to do it this way obviously, but this is how they end up in the bottom of the fork lower. If say you placed the buffer in the bottom of the lower fork, then installed the stanchion to the lower, and THEN installed the piston and rebound spring, they would still end up this way.



You then insert the stanchion with the piston and fork lock piece into the fork lower. Of course our tech doesn't like to shoot things twice so this was taken during disassembly, but it shows the relationship of the piston sticking out of the bottom of the stanchion when installed. During actual assembly I would hold them horizontally or tilted slightly upward to make sure the buffer piece stays in place on the end of the piston as the stanchion is inserted into the fork lower.




Some forks have a holder tool you can stick down into the fork to keep the piston from turning when you install the bolt and sealing washer to the bottom of the fork lower (which then secures the buffer to the piston). But much of the time you can get the same result (as you found) buy temporarily installing the fork spring, collar, and cap so that spring pressure holds the piston still (and holds it against the buffer) when you install and tighten the bolt.

Let me know if anything was substantially different from your setup. But I don't think it will be. And hopefully this clarifies the exploded view.

[DoubleGuzzi]

During assembly you stick the piston w/ rebound spring back into the top of the stanchion and let the end protrude out of the bottom, then you place the buffer (lock piece) on the end of the piston.

Nope. If you like, think .. let the piston protrude through stanchion, then pop the buffer on the end of the exposed piston. See that taper on the top portion of the buffer? It mirrors the insert inside the stanchion. I can't get much/any clearer until I do another stripdown for seal replacement and take pics.

Goes out to see what I can figure out, with the Breva clutch cable.. 

[Kev m]

Nope. If you like, think .. let the piston protrude through stanchion, then pop the buffer on the end of the exposed piston. See that taper on the top portion of the buffer? It mirrors the insert inside the stanchion. I can't get much/any clearer until I do another stripdown for seal replacement and take pics.

OK... I kinda think we're talking two different ways around a square (like two people's divided by a common language).

Let me give it one last chance at understanding you - and if that doesn't work I'll await pics you might take someday.

ARE YOU SAYING that the buffer fits into the stanchion?

If so ARE YOU SAYING that the buffer is inserted into the stanchion from the BOTTOM? (This would agree with what I'm saying and just be another way to the same result).

Or ARE YOU SAYING that you placed the buffer inside the stanchion from the TOP? (If you did this, I just don't understand this fork unless it's compressed and won't extend anymore).

* shrugs *

[DoubleGuzzi]

Final attempt.
If you install as per above photo and as depicted in the exploded view, then the combined piston and buffer will not fit through the stanchion.

Note: I don't have a piston holder, nor workshop with bench vice, hence the methodology used. (I do have a shoogly folding bench and wee clamp-on vice, however.)

[Kev m]

Final attempt.
If you install as per above photo and as depicted in the exploded view, then the combined piston and buffer will not fit through the stanchion.

Ahhhhhhh. I think we have the break through we needed.

1. You missed my description.

In that photo it is assumed the piston and spring are already installed in the stanchion. What you see is in theory the short section of the piston that is sticking out of the bottom of the stanchion.

Once the piston is already sticking out of the stanchion THEN you place the buffer on the end as shown.

2. The exploded view does NOT show you the order of installation. I believe, as a general practice, exploded views are meant to show you the physical relationship between the components when installed.

Yes, many sections of an exploded view fall in the proper order of service but that is simply because  the physical relationship often makes that true but it doesn't HAVE to be true. So to assume it is true is an error when using an exploded view as reference.

As a matter of fact some JAPanInc. manufacturers have used exploded views for disassembly and assembly procedures and, when they do, it's not uncommon for the numbers  (if used for the steps) to skip around in order to demonstrate that the order of work is NOT the same as the exploded view.