Yet another big-block startus-interruptus thread

[BrevaIsTheName]

Ciao a tutti,

So, my Breva 1100 might be suffering from some kind of startus interruptus.. I have put a battery fresh off the tender and tried a jump-start to no avail (save for the click of the starter relay), but have tested that the starter works when I supply 12V to the solenoid switch (small rectangular one on the Valeo starter) directly.

 I know there's a fix for this involving adding +12V into the starter relay from the battery, along with a fuse if you try and make your own like the one from MPH cycles; however, (as usual with old guzzi threads) every post offering a solution for this issue has dead image links- making it very hard for an idiot like me to guesstimate which wire I need to run the 12V to without damaging something and creating an "explodus unexpectus".







Could an experienced wrench tell me which wire needs to be spliced to +12V, if I am understanding the fix for this correctly?

[guzzisteve]

There is a bunch of these threads. The wire is YELLOW and goes to a fuse in the panel on fender ledge. It is the one you cut from the fuse & hook to a more direct 12V.

[BrevaIsTheName]

thanks so much.. there are indeed lots of threads and I hate to make another, but I just couldn't be 100% certain prior to doing the operation based on what I had read. If that yellow wire is #3 of the relay per the wiring diagram from https://archive.guzzitech.com/guzzi007/schematics/2005_Breva_1100.gif, then I still am slightly confused since I can't see where 3 connects to any +12V. I am by no stretch an electrician and very much afraid to fry things!

So, the yellow wire is cut completely from the fuse (23 by the diagram it, auxiliary fusebox) (no more connection) and then connected to the +12V battery terminal? When I do this I will at least make pictures so the next hopeless bloke who comes along can have some clarity. It's just tricky going by text alone when you aren't already certain of what's being done to what.

[SemperVee]

While you are there I would recommend, as I have done - tap into the orange wire and run it to the starter solenoid with a thicker  16AWG+   than stock wire.  You'll be glad you did.  As recommended to me by KiwiRoy.

[guzzisteve]

Yellow wire goes from ignition relay (#3 on wire diagram) to fuse 'B'

[cappisj1]

About every 4 years I get the click. Prior owner installed the AF1 wires but they did not work. The first time I cleaned contacts, chased wires and replaced the starter. I finally bought a new battery. The new battery has always fixes my no start. I just put the old battery in my mower and a new one in the bike. I also had a new battery once that clicked when I got home and put it in. Took it back to Interstate. They tested it and said it showed it was ok. They gave me another. Changed it in the parking lot and that one lasted its 4-5 year lifespan. The wires need a good strong current to get past that relay. I would start with a new battery. After 110,000 on my Norge a new battery worked every time. Not saying that adding a workaround starter butter is not a bad idea to get it started when the battery is weak though.

[Rebochi]

  I used the wire going to the solenoid to power a relay, the relay switches 12 volts from the battery to power the solenoid.  Cheap, easy and does not require cutting onto the harness.

[BrevaIsTheName]

About every 4 years I get the click. Prior owner installed the AF1 wires but they did not work. The first time I cleaned contacts, chased wires and replaced the starter. I finally bought a new battery. The new battery has always fixes my no start. I just put the old battery in my mower and a new one in the bike. I also had a new battery once that clicked when I got home and put it in. Took it back to Interstate. They tested it and said it showed it was ok. They gave me another. Changed it in the parking lot and that one lasted its 4-5 year lifespan. The wires need a good strong current to get past that relay. I would start with a new battery. After 110,000 on my Norge a new battery worked every time. Not saying that adding a workaround starter butter is not a bad idea to get it started when the battery is weak though.

Yes definitely; battery is getting tested today and depending on what she reads I'll change her out. What's weird is that everything ran fine for months, then I parked the bike for about an hour in front of my house- at which point the dreaded clicking began its tyranny and I have had zero success over 50+ start attempts since then. It hasn't even attempted to appear intermittent, which made me super weary of other issues, but the starter seems fine and I can't see any obvious shorts or blown fuses.

Does that potentially sound like a weak battery still? Would be nice if someone else experienced a similar "hard stop" failure

[Kiwi_Roy]

Here we go again.
Starting with Carls schematic.
https://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2005_Breva_1100.gif
If you look at the starter it doesn't show reality, heck it doesn't even show 1 coil let alone two.
There are two coils inside the solenoid and they can draw 40 - 60 Amps which the wiring is not able to supply.
I used to tell people to watch the numberplate light while trying to start, you might see it dim when start is pressed (because of Voltage Drop)it uses the same yellow wire supply.
Find the Start relay (3) you will see a yellow wire feeding the contact at terminal 3, snip that a few inches from the relay and solder or crimp on a 16 gauge wire with 20 Amp in-line fuse from battery positive, that will take care of Voltage drop to the relay.
Now snip off the wire from pin 5 that's a tiny wire also, again splice on a 16 gauge wire and run it down to the starter and attach it to the solenoid trigger terminal with a good quality spade connector.
This will take care of Voltage drop from the relay and should resolve your problem.

[BrevaIsTheName]

Thank you folks for indulging this noob once again.

Just to clarify, is the solenoid trigger terminal going to be the flat contact (2) like this? I see this one, and what looks to be a 12V connection direct to the battery from the starter motor.

[Wayne Orwig]

Thank you folks for indulging this noob once again.

Just to clarify, is the solenoid trigger terminal going to be the flat contact (2) like this? I see this one, and what looks to be a 12V connection direct to the battery from the starter motor.

Yes, the solenoid trigger is the flat terminal. It can't hurt to replace the wire feeding that up to your new relay. The wire is VERY small for the amount of current needed.

And, on that image you posted, it is a good idea to clean and tighten that ground wire you show. They tend to corrode and contribute to the problem.

[Huzo]

Could someone just shoot a video for the poor guy ?

[BrevaIsTheName]

Here we go again.
Starting with Carls schematic.
https://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2005_Breva_1100.gif
If you look at the starter it doesn't show reality, heck it doesn't even show 1 coil let alone two.
There are two coils inside the solenoid and they can draw 40 - 60 Amps which the wiring is not able to supply.
I used to tell people to watch the numberplate light while trying to start, you might see it dim when start is pressed (because of Voltage Drop)
Find the Start relay (3) you will see a yellow wire feeding the contact at terminal 3, snip that a few inches from the relay and solder or crimp on a 16 gauge wire from battery positive, that will take care of Voltage drop to the relay.
Now snip off the wire from pin 5 that's a tiny wire also, again splice on a 16 gauge wire and run it down to the starter and attach it to the solenoid trigger terminal with a good quality spade connector.
This should resolve your problem

Roy you are as good a teacher as you are a wrench sir, thank you- this made perfect sense. Let me just ask to be 100% sure: am I cutting #3/yellow on the relay side, and wiring that relay connection straight to the battery? AKA, not keeping that connection and adding/splicing in the battery voltage in parallel (in addition to increasing the wire gauge on the solenoid switch (orange) which makes lots of sense to do as well)

just making sure I don't damage anything; measure twice, cut once as they say. If y'all lived close there would be beer distributed to you all after all the help, so thank you again and we are almost there!

[Kiwi_Roy]

Yes cut the small wires close to the relay and splice on something beefy.
Perhaps before you start attach a crimp lug to several feet of 16 gauge
Slip it onto the solenoid trigger terminal.
Touch the other end to battery positive, that's how the starter is designed to crank. You Don't need the key On for this test.
Add a 20 Amp  in line fuse to the new wire going to relay terminal 3.
Idealy you would replace the wire and the connector in the relay base but its's very hard to replace the contacts in the relay base.
But you can remove most of the voltage drop by eliminating most of the wimpy wires.

Some owners prefer to add another new 60 Amp relay adjacent to the starter that's another option
From large hot terminal through 20 Amp fuse, through relay - trigger terminal. The relay would be energized by the original trigger wire. and wire to chassis.
It's a little bit hard to explain the need for all this new wiring but you will be happy when it's done.

Its terrible that Guzzi have never fixed Startus Interuptus, the problem is very simple they obviously never monitor what owners are saying.

[Mackers]

Here's another option from Gambalunga:

[Haioku_Mantan]

Here's another option from Gambalunga:

This is super useful. Makes it dead simple to figure out the circuit and where to plug in what.
Thanks.

[blackcat]

Just out of curiosity, what is the hose with the valve?





[/quote]

[guzzisteve]

I would guess a stepper delete.

[Kiwi_Roy]

  I used the wire going to the solenoid to power a relay, the relay switches 12 volts from the battery to power the solenoid.  Cheap, easy and does not require cutting onto the harness.

This is another way around the problem mount the relay close to the starter with a 20 Amp in-line fuse between the large hot terminal and relay 30 pin, relay 87 to the solenoid spade terminal.
The original trigger wire goes to relay coil with the other coil terminal to chassis.
Now a few Ohms resistance in the wiring doesn't matter because yo only need about 100 milliamps to pick up the relay coil.
I still prefer to replace the wimpy factory wiring with something that can take the current.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Ciao a tutti,

So, my Breva 1100 might be suffering from some kind of startus interruptus.. I have put a battery fresh off the tender and tried a jump-start to no avail (save for the click of the starter relay), but have tested that the starter works when I supply 12V to the solenoid switch (small rectangular one on the Valeo starter) directly.

 I know there's a fix for this involving adding +12V into the starter relay from the battery, along with a fuse if you try and make your own like the one from MPH cycles; however, (as usual with old guzzi threads) every post offering a solution for this issue has dead image links- making it very hard for an idiot like me to guesstimate which wire I need to run the 12V to without damaging something and creating an "explodus unexpectus".







Could an experienced wrench tell me which wire needs to be spliced to +12V, if I am understanding the fix for this correctly?

Many owners have used the MPH kit and swear by them however the kit only feeds 12 Volts from the battery to the relay, it does nothing about the wimpy wire from the relay to the solenoid, that's half the problem.
I spent my whole working life solving electrical problems so I try to look at the complete picture.