Small block clutch

[BMCMOTO]

I am replacing my Breva 750 clutch with one from a later V9 hoping for a much lighter pull, idea came from somebody in Europe. My clutch pushrod seal is leaking gear oil into the clutch housing. Does anyone know if replacing the small block clutch push rod seal require transmission disassembly?? In all the years I've worked on Guzzis I can't remember doing even one.

Brian

[Dirk_S]

You can remove the clutch pushrod assembly simply through the back after removing the swing arm. Here’s a tutorial:

https://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/showthread.php?326857-V7-Clutch-Rod-and-Throw-Out-Bearing-Replacement

The V9’s clutch is indeed easy to pull compared to my V7 III and previous V7 II. Didn’t realize it was the clutch itself.

[BMCMOTO]

This is the seal I'm referring to, leak is into clutch housing / bell housing, at front of input shaft / transmission.

https://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=193&products_id=3226

Brian

[Dirk_S]

This is the seal I'm referring to, leak is into clutch housing / bell housing, at front of input shaft / transmission.

https://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=193&products_id=3226

Ah, my bad…I see they changed the pushrod assembly design starting with the 6-speeds and no longer incorporate a seal:

[BMCMOTO]

Thanks, Dirk, for the illustration that I couldn't manage to post working from my tablet. Yes, siree Bob, that's the little bugger right there. I think the clutch housing will have to come off the transmission to get at it. My push rod shaft is also showing some wear in that spot, so it will be replaced. This bike has about 80,000 miles on it, so it's not too surprising, I guess.

Brian

[malik]

The Breva 750 clutch mechanism is the same across the earlier V7 (from 2008 up to, but not including the V7 II) & the Nevada & perhaps some of the V65's. The V35, V50 & the NTX 650 have the same DESIGN, but with a smaller clutch shaft diameter & thus clutch shaft nut with a clutch friction plates spline with a spline to match.
The wearing parts are the clutch pushrod seal (your little bugger, that lives in a recess in the the clutch shaft & seems to fail around 80,000 to 120,000km), the thrust bearing (#9), the outer body o-ring (#8), perhaps the clutch shaft seal (#20) & the 36mm clutch shaft nut (#16) which has a lip punched into a groove in the shaft itself which needs to be cleared before trying to remove the nut. It's probably best to replace the main engine seal while it's staring at you. The friction plate (#4) is likely oil impregnated & best replaced. That's the most expensive part, the rest are fairly cheap. I've found that the clutch pushrod (#13) & the clutch cup (#2) don't usually need replacing unless significantly worn, but these are not particularly expensive.
To get at the clutch pushrod seal, the clutch shaft will need to come out, so the clutch cover/bell housing will need to come off, so you'll need to remove the engine/ gearbox from the frame (gives you the opportunity to degrease & clean up everything there), separate the engine & gearbox & then the clutch cover. Best to download the Service/Workshop Manual for the V750 - there's 2 versions available, but the one you'll want is the one that comes in 2 parts, part 1 & part 2.
To remove the clutch shaft from the clutch cover you will need access to Special Tools - a socket to grip the nut & a holder for the spline on the shaft ( I had the spline holder made up from an old clutch plate centre cut down with a Z shaped bar welded on to clear the inside of the bell housing & similar bar welded to a socket for the clutch shaft nut (36mm, I think, but will double check), I'll find some photos & post them.
To remove the flywheel (& especially to replace it) a flywheel holder tool is especially useful - I use one designed for a VW bug, which over here in Oz costs some $27 AUD (& also fits your Porche). You can hold the flywheel to remove the 6 bolts by jamming a big screwdriver down inside the driven clutch, but the holder is useful to get the torque settings correct on reassembly.
Once the clutch cover with the clutch shaft is removed you can check the run of some bearings (usually fine, but new ones are cheap) & inspect the hardening on the faces of the gear cogs. These were fine on the V7 Classic both times & a mate's Breva both times, but the 2014 V7 Special showed loss of hardening on the 5th gear on both the primary shaft & the layshaft - 5th gear later failed early - a used gearbox was cheaper than the primary 5th gear cog.
I found the whole exercise replacing the clutch to be quite straight forward, not particularly technically challenging at all, but somewhat time consuming. It's Significantly cheaper doing it yourself, the labour costs charged by any shop is ruinous. Those who do it more or less regularly will likely quote around 6 hours to remove the engine from the frame. I've managed that a lot quicker a couple of times but budget on a day or 2 to remove & clean. Take copious notes & lots of photos.
Do note that some of the bolts/screws are loctited & may need heat to loosen & decent sets of sockets & Allen keys are useful - beware of rounding out the socket head bolts. I've found that impact bits & sockets occasionally come in handy, as does a section of gal pipe to extend leverage.
Get at it, mate - it's all great fun.

[malik]

Clutch special tools

[BMCMOTO]

If I can access the small seal from the back side of shaft once exposed by removing the clutch housing that is probably all I will do on this bike. I'll get a better look tomorrow.
Thank you for the write up and photos.

Brian

[malik]

Once the clutch cover is off & the back side accessible, it's easy to hook out the old seal. With a bit of gear oil on the new seal, you should be able to press it in comfortably.

[malik]

As an aside, there is a V 85 clutch pack available from the wreckers over here, so I checked it out for the NTX 650 engine swap - the V85 Spare Parts Manual's exploded diagram reveals a whole new world - no wonder the V85 has a much lighter clutch. I'm not sure if that clutch pack would work between the NTX gearbox & the V7 engine. At the present state of play, it's somewhat expensive just to get on spec. If anyone knows of it being done, I'd like to know.

[BMCMOTO]

Credit where credit due.

Members
 3.3k
Leipzig
My bike(s):
1983 V35 Imola _ _ _ 2003 Breva 750 i.e. 2002 V11 Le Mans
Posted March 27, 2025 (edited)
I don't expect there will be many takers for this here, but I've just written something on the subject somewhere else, and I thought I might as well put it here too.

 

As I have mentioned elsewhere, I have a V35 Imola. About the only thing that annoyed me about it was that the clutch was so heavy.

In the German forum that I am active in, a couple of bright sparks figured out that the clutch from a V85 will fit in any of the small block models. The only restriction is that the V35 and V50 have a different input shaft on the gearbox to the V65 and later models, including the V85. This means that the clutch plate for the V85 clutch wont fit on those early models. However, the V85 produces close to 80 PS, the V50 only 49, and the V35 a bit more than 30, maybe. So it is a safe bet to just use the smaller clutch plate in the newer clutch.

Long story short: I bought a brand new clutch in e-Bay for about 150 Euros (price for a new V85 clutch from a dealer about 250 Euro). It turned out to be a V9 clutch, but is obviously effectively the same as the one in the V85. The original clutch in the V35 required a full hand, and a lot of effort. Now I can operate it with one finger. Need I say more?

And....

the newer clutch is lighter than the old one, so blipping the throttle at the traffic light is much more effective.

So...

if anyone has a small-block Guzzi and a bit of spare cash, and a bit of time, think seriously about doing the mod. It is worth the effort.

 

If anyone is interested and needs more details, let me know and I will elaborate.

Edited March 27, 2025 by audiomick


Brian

[Dirk_S]

Hmm. I just looked up the parts number for the clutch pack for both my 2018 V7 III and 2017 V9. Same kit - 2A000419. But, my V7 III clutch pulls stiff like my V7 II, and yet my V9 pulls easy, one finger.

[malik]

For what it's worth, I've found that re-routing the clutch cable has a significant affect on the clutch pull on both the V7  Classic and the 2014 V7 Special. If at first it seems a hard pull, experiment with the routing. I can't see why, but it seems to work.

Also note that the cable is stainless wire inside a Teflon lined outer. It's supposed to work frictionless when dry. Any lubricant on the cable seems to end up gumming the works. I only live the top  button, doesn't stop the cable breaking every now & then, so on long trips, I carry a spare.

[Vagrant]

They changed the levers and the a bunch of the leverage mechanisms on the latter small blocks.

[Dirk_S]

They changed the levers and the a bunch of the leverage mechanisms on the latter small blocks.

The clutch lever (2B002390) is shared across the V7 III, V9, and all the E5 models, so that’s certainly not the difference. Considering the V9 has a different switch gear, I could see the pivot mounting possibly being a factor. While I haven’t replaced my V9’s clutch cable, I have replaced the cables on my V7 III as well as my old V7 II. Always had the same stiffness. I never thought a Guzzi small block’s clutch pull could feel as effortless as other bikes until I got this V9. Too bad the V9’s switch gear is cumbersome to mess with. So many little screws.

[guzzisteve]

For what it's worth, I've found that re-routing the clutch cable has a significant affect on the clutch pull on both the V7  Classic and the 2014 V7 Special. If at first it seems a hard pull, experiment with the routing. I can't see why, but it seems to work.

Also note that the cable is stainless wire inside a Teflon lined outer. It's supposed to work frictionless when dry. Any lubricant on the cable seems to end up gumming the works. I only live the top  button, doesn't stop the cable breaking every now & then, so on long trips, I carry a spare.

For lube there is a couple sprays that work w/cable & don't gum up. I found that 1 Lube by Slick 50 does well & easy to find in auto parts. The other is made by Petrochem and come w/a cable luber.

[BMCMOTO]

Before I began the process of changing the clutch to the V9 clutch to lessen the pull, I measured the pull with a strain guage. The original clutch pull was 25 lbs to move the lever. The later clutch is now in, and I checked the pull using the same method, 11 lbs.!!!! That is a truly remarkable improvement. I wonder how many of the small blocks went unsold to prospective customers who found the clutch pull objectionable. A simple engineering change makes a lot of difference. The bike is not yet fully reassembled, so the engagement issue is still in question. Many of the small blocks, Brevas in particular, have an issue with the adjustment range available. On this bike and my other Breva, cold versus warm adjustment means it is not right for either condition. We'll know soon!!

Brian

[malik]

BMC - keep in touch & let us know how it works.

I did get a second hand V85 clutch pack while it was available. Sitting on the shelf, waiting. It will likely be a while before either of my V7's clutch push rod seal fails again, but now I'm prepared. It's also a function of how many clutch cables I go through before then.

[BMCMOTO]

A semi final report on the new clutch system. Semi final because it was a short ride due to cool temps, about 45* F. It is a real treat, very light pull and correctly adjusted for both hot and cold condition at one setting. The old clutch was never in the right adjustment, if it was adjusted correctly cold it slipped when hot, if adjusted correctly hot it dragged when cold. Seems fine now. I am going for a longer ride on Sunday so will know better after that. On another note; we've been indoctrinated not to expect much in the way of power from the small blocks of this generation, well I hung a heavy shift between 1st and 2nd at full throttle, and oh my!!! the little bike lofted her front wheel for the first time ever, and again between 2nd and 3rd but smaller. I won't be making a habit of that but, I was impressed with the old girl, never knew she had it in her.

Brian   

[BMCMOTO]

The new V9 clutch is superb!!

2006 Breva 750 w/ 78,000 miles.

I am having some running issues that I seem unable to conquer.  This bike has Mistral cans and a Beetle map for same. The transition between trailing throttle and throttling up is very abrupt and disconcerting as it makes cornering a little herky jerky and generally not pleasant. I also noted on Guzzidiag that even after resetting the throttle position the reading fluctuates when idling and the engine misses occasionally it also pops on the overrun at times. The TPS reading also fluctuates after engine shutdown. The co trim is set to zero. Should I be looking for a different number there. How does co trim affect the running, at idle only or throughout the range. Does air bleed screw adjustment affect these issues.

Brian