Norge, here we go again

[Bison]

Hello folks.
2007 Norge.
Well, I managed about 5000 miles before another, problem.
Starts off the button every time, runs great and puts like a train, until you close the throttle and open it again, then it dies, for maybe 5 seconds or so, and then picks up again, until the next time you close the throttle, then same again. If you ride on a light throttle, or close the throttle slowly, it doesn't happen so much, but it's getting progressively worse, and much worse if you ride quickly.
No fault codes. It will sometimes die when stationary, EG at traffic lights, sometimes not
 It feels like fuel starvation, but at idle?, no air lock, injectors clean, pump working and building pressure then stops when at pressure. no water in fuel, no gurgling in the tank indicating a burst pipe or filter. Steel canister filter fitted, not old. No misfire when it's running, pulls very well, fuel pump connector cleaned
Battery at 12.9v, under load 12.7v, charging 13.8v to 14.3v when engine running. All earths (grounds) clean and tight, all fuses good and cleaned, all relays cleaned and swapped around with one another. TPS reset, but it was within spec anyway, all Guzzi Diag readings are spot on. When it dies the dashboard still operates, no warning lights, no red triangle. speedo works until you pull to a stop. I can't remember if the rev counter works when it dies,  but I think it does, which indicates the ignition/spark is working, as I assume it works of the ignition. It doesn't go onto one cylinder, both cylinders cut out. Plugs re good, as are leads, caps etc
I'll check the air filter over the weekend.
Something similar has happened before, but then the dash and everything would die randomly, no ignition, no lights nothing, it doesn't do that this time. I found a cold solder joint overheating on the strip fuses the previous owner had installed, it's not that fault this time.
Any ideas folks?
Alan.
PS, reading my post over I think these are classic water in fuel symptoms. I removed an injector and cycled the pump to drain fuel, but not all of the fuel that was in the tank. I'll do that over the weekend and also remove and clean out  or replace the filter. I'll let you know.

[Huzo]

Get on Guzzidiag and check that the TPS is tracking correctly with throttle opening. I can’t remember which function it is, but there is a trace that you can bring up that draws a graph that checks this function.
Check that the TPS is not loose in its housing.
Check the throttle linkage arm that connects the two throttle quadrants is secure.
When it “dies”, do you mean loses some power or cuts out like you’ve turned the ignition off ?
No stored or currents codes you say ? Is that on the dashboard or Guzzidiag ?

You say it pulls like a train after start, yet later on you suggest the problem is worse on high throttle, can you elaborate there ? It seems significant that closing throttle then reopening exacerbates the issue. It’s sounding like the TPS command to the ECU is awry.

It can’t be starvation or poor tank venting or it would not pull hard, it’s not electrical because the mechanical closing and reopening of the throttle is seperate from that. Does it display this symptom in neutral ?
Are the throttle plates tight on the pivot spindles ? (I guess so because it’s happening on both)🫢

[Bison]

Hi Huzo,
On GuzziDaig the TPS reading moves and returns to it's original setting, I'll look for the graph.
The TPS is fastened securely
Yep, throttle link arm good, I had problems with that and repaired it.
It cuts out like the ignition is turned off, but the dash has power and no warning lights of any sort.
No fault codes on GuzziDiag, on the dash there are some X's in the right hand column which will not delete/reset, the left column has clear circles, no faults.
Sorry for not being clearer. When I open the throttle and go quickly, it goes great, it accelerates cleanly and powerfully, when I  close the throttle, say for a roundabout, it dies after a few meters, then eventually picks up again  regardless of where the throttle is, if I hold the throttle slightly open, clutch engaged,  it will pick up and accelerate normally after about 10m. If I use small smooth throttle openings the problem is much less pronounced.  It will  accelerate cleanly and powerfully with no misfire up to any speed, but if I close the throttle , it will cut out, but not always immediately, if I open or close the throttle to a cruising speed, slowly, it runs beautifully, all the time, for as long as I want,  if I close the throttle slowly it doesn't cut out, every time, but it will probably cut out when I stop say at traffic lights.
It revs in neutral with a very slight hesitation if the throttle is really snapped open very quickly. A couple of times at traffic lights I have come to a stop and immediately after pulling in the clutch it will die, but not always. after it cuts out it starts immediately, no misfire, no excessive cranking
When I accelerate and change gear it doesn't miss a beat, when I change down it dies, ie when I keep the throttle closed for a longer period.
Imagine if you were riding up to a roundabout, or slowing down for a corner, close the throttle then after a second or two  flip the kill switch, then after 10m or so, flip the kill switch on again, and away it goes, that's what it's like.
It does seem to be getting worse, which gives me more chance to locate the problem

[Huzo]

 :undecided:Bloody hell…!

[PJPR01]

Sounds mechanical in nature...at first glance, will have to read it a few more times.

Have you checked the 2 throttle cables, pull and return and where the nuts are screwed out to on the rubber boots right behind the throttle on the handlebars.  Has that snagged or come loose?

[Bulldog9]

Hello folks.
2007 Norge.
Well, I managed about 5000 miles before another, problem.
Starts off the button every time, runs great and puts like a train, until you close the throttle and open it again, then it dies, for maybe 5 seconds or so, and then picks up again, until the next time you close the throttle, then same again. If you ride on a light throttle, or close the throttle slowly, it doesn't happen so much, but it's getting progressively worse, and much worse if you ride quickly.
No fault codes. It will sometimes die when stationary, EG at traffic lights, sometimes not
 It feels like fuel starvation, but at idle?, no air lock, injectors clean, pump working and building pressure then stops when at pressure. no water in fuel, no gurgling in the tank indicating a burst pipe or filter. Steel canister filter fitted, not old. No misfire when it's running, pulls very well, fuel pump connector cleaned
Battery at 12.9v, under load 12.7v, charging 13.8v to 14.3v when engine running. All earths (grounds) clean and tight, all fuses good and cleaned, all relays cleaned and swapped around with one another. TPS reset, but it was within spec anyway, all Guzzi Diag readings are spot on. When it dies the dashboard still operates, no warning lights, no red triangle. speedo works until you pull to a stop. I can't remember if the rev counter works when it dies,  but I think it does, which indicates the ignition/spark is working, as I assume it works of the ignition. It doesn't go onto one cylinder, both cylinders cut out. Plugs re good, as are leads, caps etc
I'll check the air filter over the weekend.
Something similar has happened before, but then the dash and everything would die randomly, no ignition, no lights nothing, it doesn't do that this time. I found a cold solder joint overheating on the strip fuses the previous owner had installed, it's not that fault this time.
Any ideas folks?
Alan.
PS, reading my post over I think these are classic water in fuel symptoms. I removed an injector and cycled the pump to drain fuel, but not all of the fuel that was in the tank. I'll do that over the weekend and also remove and clean out  or replace the filter. I'll let you know.

I would:
1. Check slack in throttle cables (both)
2. Check vacuum lines on TB's, Stepper, and EVAP lines and breather. Is Gas Tank Pressurized (positive or negative)
3. Ensure the TB's and Exhaust manifolds are tight and you have no leaking at the airbox, etc.
4. Use GD to reset learning parameters and TPS (assuming valves are in spec)
5. Fuel pump and filter in proper condition

[Bison]

Hi Folks,
I got a chance to work on the Norge.
I drained the tank, removed it, and removed the pump, cleaned the wire mesh filter and blew it all through.No water in the tank.  Replaced the air filter while the tank was off. Checked all the throttle linkages and cables again, removed and cleaned all the earths (grounds) again, cleaned the injectors.
I'll put a gallon of fresh fuel in. I cleaned the stepper motor valve with carb cleaner quite a few times and cycled it using the ignition. then fired it up and squirted a little carb cleaner in to the pipe, it stuttered but picked up every time, I managed just the right amount.
I rechecked the TPS setting, spot on at 4.7, and moves up when throttle opened, I checked the throttle body sinc, spot on.
It fired up right away, and settled to a lovely even idle.
I Need to get fuel for it, and it's raining hard here, so that will be over the weekend.
What I did do was, while it was stationary, revved it to 4000rpm, held it there for a while and snapped the throttle closed, perfect, straight to a lovely even idle, I did that from various revs and it behaved perfectly every time. It wasn't fully up to temperature, but the fault happens whether hot or cold.
So the fault only happens when the bike is moving?, now that is strange. Sidestand switch?, tip sensor?, I've checked and cleaned the connections
The proof of the pudding will be in the testing.
I'll report back.
In the meantime, because I didn't actually find anything wrong, any ideas gratefully accepted, apart from using it as a boat anchor. hhmmm, wait a minute........
Alan.

[fotoguzzi]

Long shot but your valve lash is in spec?

[Tom H]

If your side stand switch works like my EVT, if your in gear and put the side stand down, the engine dies.

Could it be the side stand spring is a bit week and when you slow the stand comes down a bit causing the engine to die? I seem to remember someone had issues when going over bumpy roads and a new spring solved the problem.

Hope this helps,
Tom

[Huzo]

The tip obver sensor is an interesting one, I didn’t think of that. Can you bypass it as a test ?

[Bison]

Hi Folks,
The side stand spring is fine, it doesn't bob up and down.
Yep, valve clearances are at spec, well, I run.002" larger on all my Guzzi's
Not sure if the tip sensor can be bypassed, I'll look into it
No vac in the tank, I opened the filler cap and ran it, no difference.
It's the Scottish motorcycle show this weekend, I'll be involved in that on the stand of another Italian bike starting with Moto, I have 350's, so I doubt I'll get out on the Norge, but will keep everyone up to date.
Thanks for the suggestions.
Alan.

[DoubleGuzzi]

..
It's the Scottish motorcycle show this weekend
..

Still held at Ingliston?
(Just curious, as I used to live nearby.)

[PJPR01]

When I accelerate and change gear it doesn't miss a beat, when I change down it dies, ie when I keep the throttle closed for a longer period.
Imagine if you were riding up to a roundabout, or slowing down for a corner, close the throttle then after a second or two  flip the kill switch, then after 10m or so, flip the kill switch on again, and away it goes, that's what it's like.
It does seem to be getting worse, which gives me more chance to locate the problem

Having read it again, it makes me wonder if the kill switch contact is contaminated and should be sprayed on the inside with DeOxit to verify if the contact is not somehow intermittently being triggered.

Sounds like the side stand spring is good, I'd check the wire as well to make sure it's not frayed or having intermittent contact on the plunger.

Reading thru all, it's starting to sound electrical, not mechanical...just a hunch.

[Bison]

Yes, still at Ingleston.

[DC950]

Having read it again, it makes me wonder if the kill switch contact is contaminated and should be sprayed on the inside with DeOxit to verify if the contact is not somehow intermittently being triggered....

I agree with the kill switch.  I had something very similar happen with the 03 Tuono I bought last year.  Mostly it wouldn't run properly above a certain RPM and got progressively worse over time.  Vibration seemed to be the key and thinking it through, it wasn't air, spark, fuel, or compression.  Electrical was the only thing left.

Taking the switch apart and cleaning it has fixed running problem but it occasionally doesn't work at startup.  I need to replace the dumb thing.

Definitely bypass the side stand though and see what happens on a few rides.

[theoneandonlymin]

Just stabbing in the dark.
Have you checked over the lead/ connector or replaced the crank sensor ?

[Bison]

Hi Folks,
Well, having done all the bits and bobs I talked about in the last post, I put fresh fuel in it and went for a short ride, it seems to be OK, mind you, I only did a mile or so, but I was trying to get it to behave badly and it didn't.
I 'm happy it's working, but unhappy I didn't find a fault.
The kill switch idea I looked at, but discounted because the dash was still working while it was cutting out, but I will clean the contacts, the bike is used in all weathers, and incase you don't know, we do have a bit of rain in Scotland!, so it's worth spraying contact cleaner in there at least. The cam position sensor was next on the list, as I have a small oil leak from there and I was going to replace the o ring, but once again, it didn't seem to be, or feel like, ignition, it felt like fuel, don't ask me why, It just gave me the impression it was. It wasn't the stepper motor, because I tested the bike after cleaning it, and it still had the fault.
More testing will tell, but I'm thinking water or otherwise contaminated fuel is the most likely explanation?
I will report back

[PJPR01]

Does it tend to cut out on a left hand tilt more than a right hand tilt?  Hard to believe you're getting fuel starvation intermittently...bu t w/o going back and reading again, have you ever changed the fuel filter from the bulging plastic one to the proper non swelling metal one?

[Bison]

Hello Folks,
The fault happened regardless of lean angle or direction, and it has a quite recently replaced metal fuel filter.
I rode today for perhaps 25 miles, no problems, it ran beautifully, very strange, but it makes me a little nervous not having found a specific fault.
I hope to get out for a longer ride this week.
Alan.

[Bulldog9]

Hello Folks,
The fault happened regardless of lean angle or direction, and it has a quite recently replaced metal fuel filter.
I rode today for perhaps 25 miles, no problems, it ran beautifully, very strange, but it makes me a little nervous not having found a specific fault.
I hope to get out for a longer ride this week.
Alan.

Something must have been amiss, and pulling the tank off, checking fuel pump, cleaning the stepper, etc you put it right.