BMW riders

[faffi]

You are correct, even the 100hp+ liter bikes of the 70s and 80s had pretty wide ratio gearboxes. For instance, the Yamaha FJ1200 had a ratio of 2.56 between first and top gear, and the Guzzi 850 T3 had a ratio of 2.67. My V9 calculates to 2.84. According to gearingcommander, the old BMW airheads had a massive 3.41 ratio! A BMW S1000RR has a ratio of 2.1, the Honda CBR1000RR only 2.0.

Basically, if a Honda CBR1000RR is geared to do 60 mph in first gear at redline, top speed will be limited to 120 mph. If my Roamer was geared the same way for first (60 mph at redline), it would theoretically reach 170 mph in top. Another way to put it, is that in order to reach a 210 mph top speed for racing, 1st gear would need to go to 105 mph on the CBR. That is about the same as my old KZ400 did in sixth. Geared for the same top speed, my V9 would top out at 74 mph in first, an old Beemer airhead only 62 mph.

For daily riding, most riders would likely prefer a ratio between 2.5 and 3.0, depending on the use. This will give relatively stressless takeoffs, even on steep hills with passenger and luggage, while at the same time offer relaxed cruising on the highway.

[SIR REAL ED]

You are correct, even the 100hp+ liter bikes of the 70s and 80s had pretty wide ratio gearboxes. For instance, the Yamaha FJ1200 had a ratio of 2.56 between first and top gear, and the Guzzi 850 T3 had a ratio of 2.67. My V9 calculates to 2.84. According to gearingcommander, the old BMW airheads had a massive 3.41 ratio! A BMW S1000RR has a ratio of 2.1, the Honda CBR1000RR only 2.0.

Basically, if a Honda CBR1000RR is geared to do 60 mph in first gear at redline, top speed will be limited to 120 mph. If my Roamer was geared the same way for first (60 mph at redline), it would theoretically reach 170 mph in top. Another way to put it, is that in order to reach a 210 mph top speed for racing, 1st gear would need to go to 105 mph on the CBR. That is about the same as my old KZ400 did in sixth. Geared for the same top speed, my V9 would top out at 74 mph in first, an old Beemer airhead only 62 mph.

For daily riding, most riders would likely prefer a ratio between 2.5 and 3.0, depending on the use. This will give relatively stressless takeoffs, even on steep hills with passenger and luggage, while at the same time offer relaxed cruising on the highway.

You are correct.  I suspect one of the purposes of the close ratio gear boxes of the high performance bikes of the last 20 years is limit available torque to prevent riders from killing themselves.  Imagine riding a modern bike with the 100 mph first gear, if all the gears were the same as the older bikes.  People would be flipping their bikes over left and right.

I recall my brother and I were stunned when our then new 1979 Yamaha XS750's hit 70 mph in second gear.  They seemed to be geared so much higher than previous bikes we owned!! 

A few years back a friend and I were riding back roads and we swapped bikes.  I handed over my SV650 to ride his CBR1000R.  Even on 40mph back roads I was in fourth gear trying to find an rpm where the bike did not have "too much power."  IIRC the bike was geared for close to 100mph in first. Out on the open road a mild roll on at 70 mph in third gear had the front wheel in the air.

Now of course, all that can be "fixxed" with electronics.

[DoubleGuzzi]

Back in the day, I remember the Z1300 "hit the headlines" with break the speed limit (70mph) in 1st.
 

[Dalini]

I hope I DON't upset anyone to much here  but after coming home from a Guzzi rally 1 time after going to many Guzzi & BMW rallies thru the years my wife asked me what the difference was between the two. My answer was out before i actually gave it thought.
"The women at Guzzi rallies are older and less attractive."Just 1 man's  opinion that day.
I am sorry if I've offended anyone.

[faffi]

Back in the day, I remember the Z1300 "hit the headlines" with break the speed limit (70mph) in 1st.

It would do 56 mph in 1st at redline, but the speedo would be showing 60 by then. And the engines would freely rev way past its 8000 rpm redline, so I am sure many ham fisted riders saw 70 mph indicated.

[faffi]

Just remembered that my Kawasaki Vulcan 800 had a very wide ratio gearbox as well, with a ratio of 2.95 between first and fifth. It made its 56 hp @ 7000 rpm, compared to 55 hp @ 6250 for the Guzzi V9.

Both bikes hit 39.5mph in first at maximum power, the the next steps are broader on the Kawasaki until they both reach 100 mph in the second to tallest gear; 4th for the 800 and 5th for the V9. Top gives a theoretical 117 mph for the Kawa and 113 mph for the Guzzi. So pretty similar, but with the luxury of an extra gear in the Guzzi, but also one less shift needed with the Kawa. The engines did feel fairly similar, but if I could choose, I would opt for the Kawasaki VN800 unit; best clutch ever, and absolute spotless fuelling, plus a wet clutch. Otherwise, I find the Guzzi to be the better motorcycle.

[DoubleGuzzi]

It would do 56 mph in 1st at redline, but the speedo would be showing 60 by then. And the engines would freely rev way past its 8000 rpm redline, so I am sure many ham fisted riders saw 70 mph indicated.

I must be senile. 

Something else fubar?

AI Overview     
The Kawasaki Z1300 is known for having very tall gearing, allowing it to reach speeds of approximately 80–90 mph in first gear.
1st Gear Speed: Reports indicate first gear is geared high enough to reach roughly 140 km/h, which is approximately 87 mph.

[faffi]

My brother used to own a 1979 Z1300 (KZ in the US) and I owned a 1984 Z1300 DFI. There is no way in whatever they would do 80 or 90 mph in first gear.

Max speed in each gear: First: 56 mph, 2nd: 77 mph, 3rd: 100 mph, 4th: 119 mph and 5th: 137 mph.

Here are the ratioes, easily double-checked on google, allowing you to do the calculations yourself: 1st 2.29 (39/17), 2nd 1.67 (35/21), 3rd 1.28 (32/25), 4th 1.07 (29/27), and 5th 0.93 (27/29). Final drive ratio is 3.18 (35/11) but the fuel injected touring version (ZN) has a 3.40 ratio to cope with the extra weight. For those not interested in doing their own calculations, I suggest you look up gearingcommander.co m and get the numbers without any math on your own.

[Clifton]

I had a BMW R1100GS and remember when the R1150GS came out featuring the 6-speed. I thought to myself an extra gear allowing for a lower 1st for off road, slow going through campgrounds, traffic, etc, and a taller 6th for highway is just what my 1100 needed. I bought a new 2000 R1150GS and on the way home stalled it twice starting off because 1st was so tall. 6th was nice and tall but they ruined 1st making it even taller than the 1100. Who at BMW chose that 1st gear ratio for an adventure motorcycle? I didn't need to be able to go 50mph in 1st but I wanted to be able to go under 10mph!

Speaking of adventure and dual sport motorcycles these categories more than any other benefit from a WR transmission. The same bike that might be loaded down 2-up, crawling its way up a rutted Jeep road might also be used to ride 80 mph 2 days straight across Kansas and Nebraska. I've noticed most manufacturers don't seem to understand how important WR transmissions are for these bikes and just use the same unit from a street bike leaving the same ratios then thinking adding 2-3 teeth to the rear sprocket cheaply solves the problem. It doesn't. 1st is still too tall and now they've ruined 6th. Tenere 700, CB500X, the new KLE500, are just three that come to mind. There are 6 ratios to utilize, spread them out FFS. Rant over....

On a positive note I noticed on my R1300GS that BMW raised up 5th and 6th gear from the earlier R1200/1250.

[DoubleGuzzi]

Ain't nothin' beats 1st hand experience. 

[wirespokes]

How's the power band different? Difficult question - but I think it's like the one answer already given: the airhead is more gradual from lower RPMs than the T3 etc. I have to give the Guzzi more throttle taking off than the airhead. But the guzzi feels more responsive to the throttle, and that could be partly due to the CV carbs versus Dellortos. The airhead feels more mild and relaxed.

Saying that the Guzzi is a better bike than the airhead is an opinion based on personal preference. The airhead is a touring bike that can be ridden pretty damn sporty, while the Guzzis are, at heart, racing bikes that can be toured. The loops, I'm thinking, are more like Beemers than the normal Guzzis, though I've never ridden one.

I didn't know  that about gear ratios for the airheads being lower to compete with the 0-60 1/4 mile crowd. Interesting info! I liked my 90/6 much better with a 3.0 final drive and didn't notice any drop in power.

One thing I was going to mention is the difference in the kind of people attracted to different machines. Even though the BMWs and Guzzis are pretty similar, they're still worlds apart. They have their similarities - shaft drive, engine/trans configuration, high quality, old school engineering - yet, they're very different. The sensibilities of the organizations that created them were very different and that imprinted itself in what they built. Even the fact that there's a very poor dealer network for the Guzzis while there are BMW dealers everywhere is part of that picture. It takes a particular person with unique traits to find Guzzis fitting into their lives.

[Tom]

Still have my'93 R100GS RD.  Only complaint is the auto retract side stand.     Same complaint as my '80 SP1000NT light blue.  Have that too.   

[faffi]

How's the power band different? Difficult question - but I think it's like the one answer already given: the airhead is more gradual from lower RPMs than the T3 etc. I have to give the Guzzi more throttle taking off than the airhead. But the guzzi feels more responsive to the throttle, and that could be partly due to the CV carbs versus Dellortos. The airhead feels more mild and relaxed.

Saying that the Guzzi is a better bike than the airhead is an opinion based on personal preference. The airhead is a touring bike that can be ridden pretty damn sporty, while the Guzzis are, at heart, racing bikes that can be toured. The loops, I'm thinking, are more like Beemers than the normal Guzzis, though I've never ridden one.

I didn't know  that about gear ratios for the airheads being lower to compete with the 0-60 1/4 mile crowd. Interesting info! I liked my 90/6 much better with a 3.0 final drive and didn't notice any drop in power.

One thing I was going to mention is the difference in the kind of people attracted to different machines. Even though the BMWs and Guzzis are pretty similar, they're still worlds apart. They have their similarities - shaft drive, engine/trans configuration, high quality, old school engineering - yet, they're very different. The sensibilities of the organizations that created them were very different and that imprinted itself in what they built. Even the fact that there's a very poor dealer network for the Guzzis while there are BMW dealers everywhere is part of that picture. It takes a particular person with unique traits to find Guzzis fitting into their lives.

Thank you for taking the time to elaborate!

I have very limited time on both airheads and Tontis, but enough to form an impression. The Beemers have this annoying trait of going up four inches before moving forward. Their suspension is as bad is it gets in my book; soft springs held in check somewhat by too much compression damping. I prefer it when the springs hold the machine up, getting comfort from reduced compression damping. The Beemers also have/had bands of vibration that is less than comfy, combined with narrower bands of smooth running. Handling is of a kind that make me uneasy; the suspension and perhaps CoG and geometry in combination with the crazy lifting/sinking of the rear due to the shaft drive and short swingarm force me to be both gentle and very alert during cornering.

I have ridden an old V7 from 1971, which I hated in every way possible, not helped by the reverse shifter and lack of brakes. Well, I think they look good - I can still look long at ad pictures of the original 700. I have also ridden a Cali II, which again felt awkward. Very lazy engine, weird handling, peculiar riding position what with the footboards. Like the Beemers, the switchgear was not to my liking. Same with the Lario 650, although it handled more like a normal motorcycle, and the engine was not as lazy. Riding position was not for my body, with handlebars too low and pegs too far forward. Then came a Cali EV-i. The riding position was the worst of any bike I have ridden, and getting the gearbox to engage a gear - any gear - from neutral was hit and miss. Mostly miss. And the engine had a huge dip of torque in the midrange. Other than that, this was a bike I liked: Smooth engine, enough top-end, good brakes (apart from the annoying linked thingies) and fine handling. I would love to test ride a standard version of the EV, with a normal riding position and pegs instead of boards. The only Guzzi I have ridden that have an engine that deliver performance from idle to redline is my V9.

I think it would be much easier to get an older Guzzi Tonti to ride the way I want than a BMW. And reduce the flywheel together with carbs/exhausts matched to elevate the midrange for smooth, strong power from idle to redline would be required. Other than finding an airhead with Paralever, I cannot see myself being happy with a Beemer.

[73 sport]

   Since we'r swapping points of view here is mine. In the mid '70s, my buddy and I rode to Daytona from Maryland through the eastern mountains. He on a Beemer and me on my '74 MG V7 Sport. The Beemer felt soft like Buick, the Sport like a sports car.

[sdcr]

I’ve owned several, maybe 10, Guzzi’s from an Eldo and G5 through the V11 Sport.
I’ve also owned a handful of BMW’s, mostly airheads, and a few K75’s and oilheads.
  I have enjoyed both brands virtues, and weathered with their deficiencies.

[wirespokes]

This puts it all into perspective - a quote from chopperman on adventure rider:

Well BMWs are like the Hot German Scientist chick. Glasses, prim, mannered, efficient. She can solve quadratic equations while kicking your ass with kung-fu moves. You have to approach her on her terms and then she will bring you ecstasy in the most efficient manner possible using techniques she learned from an ancient Kama Sutra she discovered on a sabbatical in India.

Guzzis on the other hand, are the art school wild child. long, wind-tossed hair and mischievous winks. She will redecorate your house into a turkish harem while you are away on a business trip and greet you with absinthe tainted kisses. You will go out for pizza with her and wind up somewhere in the Mojave, tequila drunk and shooting cactus with a stolen pistol.

It's very true - once I learned how the airhead WANTED to be ridden, how to be treated, what it liked or not, it worked very well. The Guzzi on the other hand feels normal and is more like an extension of myself.

I'm not a floor-board guy either. And I prefer the sport bikes over cruisers - it's the ergos, and also what I like to look at. As for the vibrations, I've found both to be very smooth and turbine-like. They both have some roughness around 3K and the beemers have another harmonic around 4K. But it's not bad, really. There are other factors, like out-of-balance wheels/tires, unbalanced flywheel/clutches, alternator rotors, but also just normal tuning. Getting both cylinders matched and balanced is the tricky part. It seems like it can be 99% there, but that last 1% is where the magic happens and it really feels right. That goes with both Guzzis and airheads. I've gotten used airheads that I know would never have been sold if they'd only been tuned properly. When they're out of tune they feel like crap.

[Perazzimx14]

This puts it all into perspective - a quote from chopperman on adventure rider:

Well BMWs are like the Hot German Scientist chick. Glasses, prim, mannered, efficient. She can solve quadratic equations while kicking your ass with kung-fu moves. You have to approach her on her terms and then she will bring you ecstasy in the most efficient manner possible using techniques she learned from an ancient Kama Sutra she discovered on a sabbatical in India.

Guzzis on the other hand, are the art school wild child. long, wind-tossed hair and mischievous winks. She will redecorate your house into a turkish harem while you are away on a business trip and greet you with absinthe tainted kisses. You will go out for pizza with her and wind up somewhere in the Mojave, tequila drunk and shooting cactus with a stolen pistol.

It's very true - once I learned how the airhead WANTED to be ridden, how to be treated, what it liked or not, it worked very well. The Guzzi on the other hand feels normal and is more like an extension of myself.

I'm not a floor-board guy either. And I prefer the sport bikes over cruisers - it's the ergos, and also what I like to look at. As for the vibrations, I've found both to be very smooth and turbine-like. They both have some roughness around 3K and the beemers have another harmonic around 4K. But it's not bad, really. There are other factors, like out-of-balance wheels/tires, unbalanced flywheel/clutches, alternator rotors, but also just normal tuning. Getting both cylinders matched and balanced is the tricky part. It seems like it can be 99% there, but that last 1% is where the magic happens and it really feels right. That goes with both Guzzis and airheads. I've gotten used airheads that I know would never have been sold if they'd only been tuned properly. When they're out of tune they feel like crap.

Ain't no Guzzi rider going to some fancy pizza joint when Golden Corral has early bird BOGO coupons