Guzzi handling

[Dukedesmo]

I've only ridden the 1 Guzzi, my LM2 and it handles fine especially given it's age.


The only problem I ever had with it was when overtaking on a 'hatched' area (diagonally painted lines in a painted box), where it got into the mother of all tank slappers - I honestly thought I was going to be thrown off it but I managed to keep it going straight until it smoothed out after which the front brakes didn't work until I'd pumped the lever a few times.

I don't know if that's 'normal' for the bike or maybe because something's not right but I can't find any faults and it actually has an uprated steering damper taken from a Ducati 916 as the original whilst looking the part didn't 'damp' anything.


Otherwise the best handling bike I've ridden is my Ducati 916 which just does everything right and is far more capable than I am.   

[Bulldog9]

You need to learn how to set up suspensions and tire pressures. I don't know but model for model category to category, I find Guzzi's to be some of the best most stable competent and pleasurable motorcycles to ride.

It is all subjective. You need to ride a properly sorted Griso or Norge, or new V85. I have a buddy with an 850 V7. Out of the box it was adequate. With Matris kit in the forks, and rear shocks and good tires with proper pressure settings, it was brilliant.

I cross ride and test ride all the time. I only own Guzzis because of the riding experience and capabilities. When I find something better or more capable and stable, I'll buy it.... But for now it doesn't exist, at least for the style and roads I ride.  Speaking of which, I'm gonna go put the final 200 miles on my V85 in the Virginia BLue Ridge, and then do the Breakin service. Gonna love every mile.

[PeteS]

I've only ridden the 1 Guzzi, my LM2 and it handles fine especially given it's age.


The only problem I ever had with it was when overtaking on a 'hatched' area (diagonally painted lines in a painted box), where it got into the mother of all tank slappers - I honestly thought I was going to be thrown off it but I managed to keep it going straight until it smoothed out after which the front brakes didn't work until I'd pumped the lever a few times.

I don't know if that's 'normal' for the bike or maybe because something's not right but I can't find any faults and it actually has an uprated steering damper taken from a Ducati 916 as the original whilst looking the part didn't 'damp' anything.


Otherwise the best handling bike I've ridden is my Ducati 916 which just does everything right and is far more capable than I am.   

I had one tank slapper on my LM1 when crossing Railroad tracks in the rain in the middle of an S curve.
The stock damper is a friction damper and totally useless. I removed mine. Friction dampers have maximum resistance when motionless. Hydraulic dampers increase resistance as motion increases.

Pete

[moto]

In Sicily I found the V7 850 to have a balanced weight distribution that let me drift both tires around every corner and plenty of torque to hang out the rear wheel to unload the front when needed. The standard riding position encouraged me to use my weight to help. The steering was stable. It was all I could want.

My T3 has the same frame and brakes as the LeMans (I), has supersport handlebars, and also does very well. I recommend the OP try one of the original short-stem models to experience the once-renowned handling of the original Tonti frame. (V7 Sport, 750S, 850T, 850-T3, 750-S3, Convert, Lemans, 1000-G5.)

I decided the new V7 850 beat my old 850 in every performance characteristic. [EDIT: except top speed.]

[faffi]

How does the Cali II differ from the T3 & Co in the chassis department? I think it must be the closest thing I have come to riding one of those on your list, moto.

[kidsmoke]

I recommend the OP try one of the original short-stem models to experience the once-renowned handling of the original Tonti frame. (V7 Sport, 750S, 850T, 850-T3, 750-S3, Convert, Lemans, 1000-G5.)

yeah, baby.

git on yer bike and ride!

[moto]

How does the Cali II differ from the T3 & Co in the chassis department? I think it must be the closest thing I have come to riding one of those on your list, moto.

It had the longer steering stem (head stock) and longer swing arm. It was praised as a good touring chassis. All the later Tonti frames had one or both of these chacteristics, I believe.

P.S. I believe the Lemans II retained the short stem. One could look these things up, say in Greg Field's book.

[Huzo]

…a balanced weight distribution that let me drift both tires around every corner and plenty of torque to hang out the rear wheel to unload the front when needed. The standard riding position encouraged me to use my weight to help.

I’m not allowed to say that’s BS, so I’ll leave it up to Isaac Newton and the Gods of fact versus fiction.
How in heaven’s name do you identify whether or not you “drifted” your bike, you possibly allowed it to run wide or it just stood itself up a bit due to the increasing velocity, but….
Jeeeeez…

[PeteS]

I’m not allowed to say that’s BS, so I’ll leave it up to Isaac Newton and the Gods of fact versus fiction.
How in heaven’s name do you identify whether or not you “drifted” your bike, you possibly allowed it to run wide or it just stood itself up a bit due to the increasing velocity, but….
Jeeeeez…

Your countryman Garry McCoy was the master at this. I am guessing moto was doing this on the track, at least I hope so.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-YPEBlQ5tw&list=RDv-YPEBlQ5tw&start_radio=1

Pete

[moto]

I’m not allowed to say that’s BS, so I’ll leave it up to Isaac Newton and the Gods of fact versus fiction.
How in heaven’s name do you identify whether or not you “drifted” your bike, you possibly allowed it to run wide or it just stood itself up a bit due to the increasing velocity, but….
Jeeeeez…

Because I observed that the direction of the bike was going was different from the direction the wheel was pointed: it was sliding outward, under control. Also, the rear was keeping pace with a sideways sliding. I raced another guy on an Audace, keeping right behind him as he tried to escape me up a twisty set of curves. From only two or three feet behind him I could plainly see his rear tire sliding outward a good bit while maintaining my speed and radius. In addition to these visual cues, I could feel both tires sliding. Maybe you can't do this. I learned about the importance of powering the rear wheel, letting it drift out under acceleration to keep the weight off the front, by listening to Nick Inaetch (sp?) on an old radio program in California. Then I practiced. That's how you do it if you want to be fast.

Isaac Newton didn't investigate the properties of rubber sliding across asphalt, but plenty of others have. Read up, or better yet find some good roads and practice up.

[PeteS]

I was able to purposely slide the rear tire on the LeMans at the track, never the front. More horsepower makes it a bit easier.

Pete

[faffi]

You will definitely know if one or both tires are sliding, be that on dry or wet asphalt, or gravel, or ice - the tires communicate what is going on. Some have a broad band between initial sliding and crashing, others have a very narrow band. The more grip, the less warning you have between initial slide and crash. This is why so few are able to race at the top level, because you have to be utterly sensitive and very good with your reactions to keep highly grippy tires sliding and not crashing.

I think it was Spies who said that to ride a race bike is like riding on marbles; if the tires are planted, you are going too slow. But the line between no slide to correct slide to crash is very narrow on race slicks.

Anyway, the sliding on marble feeling is very easy to reckognise also on road bikes when you are nearing the limit of adhesion.

[DoubleGuzzi]

^^ Best reserved for relatively smooth and predictable racetracks, rather than public roads. One day you may be sorry/get your comeuppance.
I was daft/crazy in my younger years but not to the extent of knee-down foolishness etc.

[Another one to watch from Down Under: Casey Stoner.]

[moto]

I was able to purposely slide the rear tire on the LeMans at the track, never the front. More horsepower makes it a bit easier.

Pete

As memorably explained by Nick I., it works like this:

Suppose you are rounding a constant radius curve at a speed where both your tires are on the verge of slipping or maybe are slipping, and you fear they will let go. What to do? You shouldn't back off on the throttle because this will transfer weight to the front and your front tire will slide off so you crash. You can ease off on the radius using the handlebar, but this may send you off the curve and the point is to go faster, not slower, anyway. The best bet is to give the rear tire more power to shift the weight away from the front tire, keeping it from losing traction. Also, the rear tire will kick outwards from the direction of the curve to a degree letting you apply power toward the inside to keep the rear and the bike heading around the curve. I wish this sounded more clear.

As for sliding the front, you apply power at the rear to stop this from continuing, if you like. Since the traction provided by tires is highest as the tires begin to slide, the ideal way around a constant radius corner would seem to be to have both tires slightly sliding. This is hard to do, but you always have the throttle at your disposal to keep from sliding out.

If you have enough power and enough rubber an even faster way around the corner is to power slide the rear, as is done in flat track racing. You see behavior approaching this sometimes in MotoGP racing, where the tires are always sliding.

[Huzo]

Your front tyre is not so much sliding, but steering off the centreline tangentially to the curve.
No, Isaac did not ride motorbikes, but he knew a LOT about forces, vectors and velocity.
If you tell yourself what you want to hear, you can actually “see” it after a while, a classic case of coming up with a reason after the fact, for something that you perceive to be the case.
Also, reducing the weight on the front wheel will not reduce it’s tendancy to slide, friction is a function of force, the harder the tyre is forced onto the road, the less likely it is to skid.
It doesn’t matter if you name drop Marc Marquez, some things are just inescapably true.

[Huzo]

Since the traction provided by tires is highest as the tires begin to slide

So.
It takes MORE force to keep a tyre sliding than it did to begin it sliding ?
This would have to be the case if the tyre had more grip while sliding than before it began.
If that was true, then at the instant you provided enough force to break traction (limiting friction), the tyre would stop sliding because there was not enough force to keep it doing so.
I concede that a good enough rider could produce some amount of drift on both wheels under enough braking, but on acceleration with a ditch pump for an engine ?
Nup.

[Ncdan]

I had one tank slapper on my LM1 when crossing Railroad tracks in the rain in the middle of an S curve.
The stock damper is a friction damper and totally useless. I removed mine. Friction dampers have maximum resistance when motionless. Hydraulic dampers increase resistance as motion increases.

Pete

In regards to the shock damper on the CalVin I had. I figured that if MG installed it from the factory
That it must serve a purpose.
I spent the best part of a day testing it out when I first got the Calvin.
I picked a rather curvy country road that had some bumps and ruff surfaces, a mixture of issues that I thought would influence the steering system.
I started at the first setting and went all the way to the last,  in separate runs for each setting.
I had to be perfectly honest with myself at the end of the testing and came to this conclusion.
That thing is as about as useful as tits on a bull🤔

[moto]

Your front tyre is not so much sliding, but steering off the centreline tangentially to the curve.

No the front tire is decidedly drifting, sliding sideways. As others in this discussion have said, you can certainly feel tires sliding when you push them enough. I don't think you've ever done that in your whole life.

No, Isaac did not ride motorbikes, but he knew a LOT about forces, vectors and velocity.

There's a lot he didn't know, and that you don't know. I'll show an example in my next reply.

If you tell yourself what you want to hear, you can actually “see” it after a while, a classic case of coming up with a reason after the fact, for something that you perceive to be the case.

This is insulting, and should be beneath you. It is also clumsily expressed You have no knowledge of my mental processes.

Also, reducing the weight on the front wheel will not reduce it’s tendancy to slide, friction is a function of force, the harder the tyre is forced onto the road, the less likely it is to skid.

You misspelled "tendency"; I know how you hate that.
Your allusion to the principle that friction is a (linear) function of downward force is true, but this is not enough to understand the dynamical system of the motorcycle here.

It doesn’t matter if you name drop Marc Marquez, some things are just inescapably true.

I didn't mention Marc Marquez. It may be that some things are inescapably true, but that doesn't mean the things you say are inescapably true.

[moto]

So.
It takes MORE force to keep a tyre sliding than it did to begin it sliding ?
This would have to be the case if the tyre had more grip while sliding than before it began.
If that was true, then at the instant you provided enough force to break traction (limiting friction), the tyre would stop sliding because there was not enough force to keep it doing so.

Now this a good point, and I was confusing the initial increase in the longitudinal coefficient of friction as wheel slippage increases, with what we really want, which is the immediate tailing off of the transverse coefficient under the same condition. Here is a diagram showing the two relationships, very likely provided by Brembo in their joint presentation of the T3 braking system, with Pirelli and Moto Guzzi in the Motociclismo review of that bike. (You can find my translation of the review into English at thisoldtractor.com.)

https://thisoldtractor.com/mg_manuals/motociclismo_1975-07_850_t3_english.pdf





I'm losing track of what the argument is here, so will have to go back and re-read.

I will say that I am not fitting reality to a theory as you prefer, but instead am trying to understand a real phenomenon I take advantage of when riding.

I concede that a good enough rider could produce some amount of drift on both wheels under enough braking, but on acceleration with a ditch pump for an engine ?

Braking is not needed to produce drift, front and rear. Just a tight enough turn at speed.

By the way, you do need a good amount of power to reduce the front wheel drift by powering up the rear.  When riding that V7 850 in Sicily's hills I kept the rpm at 4000 or more so that I would always have enough punch for this and other actions. If you regard the Guzzi as a ditch pump you'll get only ditch pump performance.

[Turin]

There are a lot of factors that alter handling outside of steering head height and swing arm length.
Tires can drastically affect how your bike handles. I personally prefer a tire with a V shape vs. a U shape profile.
My Centauro came with set of Shinko Ravens. very round profile. Conti sport Attack 2's made for a much more confident ride and a bike that transitioned / steered faster.
My lemans III came with the wrong tire sizes. I switched to Classic attack 90/90 up front and a 110/90 in the rear. I run this combo on my 850T as well. The bikes both feel planted and handle sharply.

Guzzi's have pretty lazy steering geometry. I like a longer shock or raising the fork tubes through the triples.

Handlebar shape makes a world of difference. It's hard to beat an old school superbike bar. I made the mistake of buying a really wide set of clip on bars for my last project. There was way too much leverage for the lack of rake at the front end. every input caused the front end to over react. Shorter bars solved the issue.

I've started experimenting with reducing triple tree offset for more trail.

[Huzo]

You misspelled "tendency"; I know how you hate that.

Oh…?
How would you spell it ?

[toomanybikes]

I think the V85 is a wonderful handling motorcycle with neutral yet fairly light steering due to the widish bars. It also has nice suspension, something my V7II Stone did not. I hope you can take one for a test ride.
 I've not ridden the new V7 850 series but everything I've read talks of nice handling, at least on smooth roads.

I have both a '22 V85 and '23 V7 Stone Special Edition. The V85 handles much better, but that's not surprising given the nicer shocks and forks. The V7 (with stock suspension & tires) feels like it is washing out a little, mostly the rear wheel.

[Dukedesmo]

I was sliding both tyres through the bends on the road when I was just a teenager.          



As I went into the bend, I felt both wheels sliding, there was no heroic save however and this is not a tale of biking god-ness as I ended up face down in the road.


Best part was, my family were waiting for me at a restaurant where we were going for a meal as it was my 18th birthday and I arrived late due to the crash, covered in blood.         

[faffi]

Just to add some more info into the fray; you cannot accelerate, steer or brake without tire slippage. Well, you can probably accelerate just rolling downhill without slip, and stop by going uphill, but whenever you use power to alter speed and/or direction, there will be tire slip.

[moto]

Oh…?
How would you spell it ?

haha
You spelled it "tendancy" earlier.

[moto]

Yes, tires are always slipping when forces are being applied. As many know, it is possible to ride with substantial, palpable slip -- the "riding on marbles" sensation. It is pointless to argue this is imaginary.

This a precarious riding situation. If you are really good you can complete your corner in a drift, usually. This is barely safe on a race track with a well-understood surface.

If you find yourself in over your head there are a couple of things that work. One is to apply force to the road surface to right the bike. I remember as a teen first slamming my boot into the ground to save myself when both tires let go on black ice around a street corner. Marc Marquez has famously saved his motorcycle from similar track slides using his knees and elbows. Others do this too.

Nick Ienatsch was a successful American racer who regularly appeared on a Santa Monica public radio station program about motorcycling(!). He was so articulate that I listened carefully to him. I tried his advice to give it more gas when the front tire is washing out, and found this generally works if you do it aggressively. So when I have the chance to ride fast this is one of my tricks.

I think this was originally a dirt track maneuver, a way of transitioning to the tail-out flat-tracking position when needed. On a street bike the effect is usually not so extreme, but the application of force toward the center still helps. It also relieves the outward push of the front tire as the rear begins to bear the centrifugal load. Or so it seems.

Rather than trying to deduce what is possible from Newton's "Mathematical Principles" we might be better off with the inductive approach of his "Opticks". That is, we should observe facts first.

[SIR REAL ED]

I was sliding both tyres through the bends on the road when I was just a teenager.          

As I went into the bend, I felt both wheels sliding, there was no heroic save however and this is not a tale of biking god-ness as I ended up face down in the road.

Best part was, my family were waiting for me at a restaurant where we were going for a meal as it was my 18th birthday and I arrived late due to the crash, covered in blood.         

Alright My Man!!!!

I knew someone was going to "man up" and tell us that you can still ride a motorcycle with both tires in the air and only metal contacting the asphalt!!!  Right you are!!

I think that aluminum on asphalt will have a higher coefficient of friction than steel on asphalt!!!  Unless the aluminum is hard anodized!

The coefficients of aluminum and aluminium on asphalt are almost identical....

After you ate, did you order desert or as some would say dessert?

[SIR REAL ED]

This thread reminds me of the time I bought those solid aluminum Land Speed Record wheels/tires they use at Bonneville for my track day bike.

I figured "Hey!  If it makes you faster on a dry salt lake, should work on the racetrack also....."