General rant, Air Filters!

[inditx]

Why oh why do the manufacturers allow the engineers to place an air filter where it requires that you tear down the bike in order to replace it?!
I know, it’s job security for the mechanics but “come on guys” seriously!

I've often said that engineers need to spend 1 year being mechanics on the bikes they design and vice versa. “Walk a mile in anothers shoes” ay?

Ok I return you to your regularly scheduled forum perusal
inditx

[Dirk_S]

Let’s play a game— What bike had a worse air filter replacement job than the old small block Guzzis?

[PeteS]

Let’s play a game— What bike had a worse air filter replacement job than the old small block Guzzis?

1800 Honda Goldwing. I doubt any other bike comes close.

Pete

[DoubleGuzzi]

Hope this doesn't turn into a H-D nor YB100 thread! [Best access]   



(The original Ducati Monster was simple enough.)

[Tom H]

I agree!!! Should be a  SIMPLE maintenance job, but no......It has to be buried under a bunch of stuff you have to remove first????

Tom

[Offcamber1]

Why oh why do the manufacturers allow the engineers to place an air filter where it requires that you tear down the bike in order to replace it?!

My theory is:  When a new motorcycle is to be designed the engineer and stylist are called into the boardroom and the CEO hands them an air filter and then says, "Design me an XXXcc motorcycle that will sell like hotcakes."  The engineer and the stylist leave the room then argue over what is most important and the resulting product is a compromise that ends up hiding the air filter, which they dare not substitute for fear of being fired, in the most inaccessible, place on the bike.

Similarly in the auto industry, the CEO hands them a heater core.

[TN Mark]

On the 1400 line, all they had to do was have the air filter go in and out from the top. Not to have to remove the battery and rear cover clips that aren’t even accessible from the sides. The engineers that did this, and many other things on other bikes are foolish idiots. They’re not to be trusted on the big things when they screw up so bad on the maintenance things.

[bad Chad]

As pointed out by Dirk, 1980s small blocks were all but impossible to change, almost. 50 years ago.

[faffi]

The first Triumph T300 series (750/900/1000/1200) where built around the airbox. To change the filter also required to change the whole box. Getting the box out and in was 

[Dukedesmo]

Mine are maintenance free;





 

[blu guzz]

One of the best I had was a Victory.  In the front, right under the steering head was a rectangular box with a single screw.  Just unscrew, take of the door, slide the old one out and the new one in and reverse.  It took about 30 seconds.  Those bikes were so well designed it is a true shame they didn't succeed.  So many other items were also well designed such as a belt drive that you did not have to take half the bike apart to change.

[Huzo]

Mine are maintenance free;





 

But the engine won’t be once it’s sucked in dust for years.

[Dukedesmo]

Quote from: Huzo on Today at 01:12:17 PM

But the engine won’t be once it’s sucked in dust for years.

___________________ ___________________ _____________

Well it's 47 years old and had new barrels & pistons 10 years ago so (not due to wear) so they should be good, it also doesn't do huge mileages.

That said, I did try some 'sock' filters over the intakes once and it ran OK though it did 'pop' a bit more than normal but then I thought, bugger it at my age, I reckon it should outlast me anyway...        

[MerleLowe]

As a V85TT owner, I'll settle for a filter assembly that doesn't allow dust in.

[Perazzimx14]

Most people never put enough miles on the bike that the air filter would need changed.

[YellowDuck]

It's actually one of the things I appreciate most about the V7 850 - how tidy and obvious everything is under the seat.  You don't need any instructions to figure out how to change the air filter (even if you might need someone to reassure you why there is a quarter cup of motor oil underneath it).  Downside, it has an intake cross section equal to about four postage stamps.

But really, now that I know how, even the v85 isn't *that* bad to get to, considering it's something you might do as often as a valve adjustment.

[azccj]

As a V85TT owner, I'll settle for a filter assembly that doesn't allow dust in.

+1 on that. Terrible airbox design.

Yet on the V100 Mandello, the air filter is very easy to get to, and no dust gets past the filter. So I know MG can do it if they try.

[SIR REAL ED]

On the 1400 line, all they had to do was have the air filter go in and out from the top. Not to have to remove the battery and rear cover clips that aren’t even accessible from the sides. The engineers that did this, and many other things on other bikes are foolish idiots. They’re not to be trusted on the big things when they screw up so bad on the maintenance things.

When it comes to sales, form will always triumph over function!  Blame the human beings who want their bikes and cars to look good!!

Don't forget WGers, people who actually work on their vehicles these days or cars are dinosaurs!!  Probably less than 5% of vehicle buyers!

I heard the same complaining from my father in the 1960's regarding dump trucks and farm tractors built in the 40's & 50's!

I have bitched about the same thing myself.  Then after spending a couple decades in machine design and production, you realize how complex the manufacturing process is, and how many variables there are just to turn any idea into hardware.

Unless you are designing production line equipment, where downtime is measured in thousands of dollars per hour, rapid and easy maintenance is NEVER going to be very high on the design intent priority list. 

95% of buyers don't care!!!!

When was the last time you saw any vehicle OEM advertising how easy the vehicle was to work on?

[SIR REAL ED]

Hope this doesn't turn into a H-D nor YB100 thread! [Best access]   



(The original Ducati Monster was simple enough.)

Those were the days.

Too bad we are all spoiled now......   

[TN Mark]

When it comes to sales, form will always triumph over function!  Blame the human beings who want their bikes and cars to look good!!

Don't forget WGers, people who actually work on their vehicles these days or cars are dinosaurs!!  Probably less than 5% of vehicle buyers!

I heard the same complaining from my father in the 1960's regarding dump trucks and farm tractors built in the 40's & 50's!

I have bitched about the same thing myself.  Then after spending a couple decades in machine design and production, you realize how complex the manufacturing process is, and how many variables there are just to turn any idea into hardware.

Unless you are designing production line equipment, where downtime is measured in thousands of dollars per hour, rapid and easy maintenance is NEVER going to be very high on the design intent priority list. 

95% of buyers don't care!!!!

When was the last time you saw any vehicle OEM advertising how easy the vehicle was to work on?

In most cases regarding Moto Guzzi, It’s simply design laziness.

The form doesn’t change to have a top loading air filter in the 1400.
The form doesn’t change to move the oil fill hole to the right side.
The form doesn’t change to move the oil drain plug to the bottom left.
The form doesn’t change on the models that should have a vertical spin on oil
filter easily accessible from the bottom of the oil pan.

Etc., etc., etc.

I’ve worked on equipment design for years. The best engineers I’ve worked
with look at all aspects of the design. The lazy ones have blinders on.

[SIR REAL ED]

In most cases regarding Moto Guzzi, It’s simply design laziness.

The form doesn’t change to have a top loading air filter in the 1400.
The form doesn’t change to move the oil fill hole to the right side.
The form doesn’t change to move the oil drain plug to the bottom left.
The form doesn’t change on the models that should have a vertical spin on oil
filter easily accessible from the bottom of the oil pan.

Etc., etc., etc.

I’ve worked on equipment design for years. The best engineers I’ve worked
with look at all aspects of the design. The lazy ones have blinders on.

Lazy Engineers exist for sure.  But Design Engineers often don't have a lot of clout at large OEM's in determining what the final product is.  Design Review Board meeting attendees can often deny reality.

Life is much more fun at small custom machine design/fabrication shops.

I have noted the same traits.  Drain plugs on the uphill side when the bike is on the side stand?  Radiator fill caps on the down hillside when the bike is on the side stand?  Oil sight glass windows that are useless when the bike is on the side stand? The requirement to start an engine and run it for a minute before you can check the engine oil level?  BMW K bikes with the cylinder head or side stand (pick one) on the wrong side?

On the plus side, improving the OEM's designs and fixing the OEM's screwups is a HUGE part of the joy of ownership for gear heads!!  Who wouldn't enjoy drilling and tapping another drain plug or fill cap on their engines?? 

Supreme bragging rights Baby!!! 

"OTHER PEOPLE BITCH, I MAKE CHIPS!!!" would be a great Moto Guzzi Owner's Tee-Shirt!  I think that is why Norton owners also have milling machines and lathes....

Of course, if you are suggesting that Moto Guzzi does not hire the best and the brightest to design and manufacture their bikes, that is a point where many, many people can agree!   

[Moparnut72]

Back in the mid-fifties to the early '60's a guy by the name of Exner was in charge of Chrysler. He was primarily a designer, some of his stuff was brilliant others were abominations. He didn't give a damn about engineering or cost and his products suffered. How many '57 Plymouths do you see compared to '57 Chevys? The Chevys were like a shoebox compared to the sleek Mopars. But the Mopars were shoddy disasters. It took until the mid-60's for the company to overcome that era. All the departments need to work together to achieve success.
kk

[SIR REAL ED]

I have a hard time calling any designer an idiot when I am ignorant of the restrictions they had for the job. 

All engineers are subject to restrictions.  The Laws of Physics. space envelopes, costs, time on the assembly line, specifications the vendors can meet, time deadlines, etc.

I can easily imagine the following scenario:

Luigi, the greatest design Engineer the motorcycling world has ever known, gets the task of designing a Moto Guzzi air box.

Project Management gives Luigi the following pep talk at the start of the project: 

"Luigi, just so you know where you stand.  You can design the greatest airbox ever known to motorcycling, but.....

The air box in terms of importance of all the components on whole bike is in the bottom 1%!  It is invisible to everyone, except the person who changes the filter every couple years.  This feelings of this person are of no consequence to Moto Guzzi International.

Budget wise, you are sucking hind tit!  After the budget costs for the other 99% of components are determined, your budget is what is left over.  Come in $1 over budget for the greatest airbox ever designed, and we kill your design.

Add 60 seconds more assembly line time than we think is necessary, for the greatest airbox ever designed, and we kill your design!

In terms of space envelope, again, you are sucking hind tit,  The space envelope requirements for the engine, frame, gas tank, seat, body work, etc. all take priority over your space envelope requirements.  All the other design space envelope requirements can kill your design.  You can use the space envelope the other designs leave you.

Meet all the above restrictions while meeting minimum air flow requirements and maximum noise requirements, and you will have done a great job!

Now, get to work and make us proud!"

[YellowDuck]

Poor Luigi   

[guzziart]

As a V85TT owner, I'll settle for a filter assembly that doesn't allow dust in.

I 2nd that!

[guzziart]

In most cases regarding Moto Guzzi, It’s simply design laziness.

The form doesn’t change to have a top loading air filter in the 1400.
The form doesn’t change to move the oil fill hole to the right side.
The form doesn’t change to move the oil drain plug to the bottom left.
The form doesn’t change on the models that should have a vertical spin on oil
filter easily accessible from the bottom of the oil pan.

Etc., etc., etc.

I’ve worked on equipment design for years. The best engineers I’ve worked
with look at all aspects of the design. The lazy ones have blinders on.

I think a high schooler could have machined a better oil filter cap assembly, in shop class, on the v85's....I'm referring to the oring land on the cap and pan bore & crushwasher areas.  Although it doesn't leak, it puzzles me why not.

[Tom]

2008 Yamaha YP400 Majesty scooter (395cc) has left & right air filters for the fuel injection with a Y connector for the intake.  🤷‍♂️     Like any scooter, it also has a filter on the belt drive. 

[SIR REAL ED]

Poor Luigi   

Last i heard, Luigi is working for Harley Davidson. 

He said the only restriction they have on air filter holders is they have to be chrome....

[DoubleGuzzi]

..Luigi is working for Harley Davidson..

Did I not predict that it'd turn into a H-D thread? 

[YellowDuck]

For the record, last night I took the V85 Strada airbox apart again (second time).  From the time I started to the point that I was holding the airbox lid in my hand, 10 min.  Maybe 90 s more to unscrew the retainer to get the filter out?  Definitely not in the running for worst ever.  At most, mildly annoying.