*California 1400 Merged Threadfest*

[leafman60]

And we all thought we could breath easier when we heard they had gotten rid of poor ole Pierre Terblanche who went to Norton (god be with them).

[guzzisteve]

I would be happy if they engineered it from a techs point of view. Tilt motor forward, put the nose of the trans under the flywheel, then have it able to drop out of frame from the bottom. You can't crab the CARC frames to shorten the time.

[Gliderjohn]

Quote from Leafman60:

Big ugly radiator, plumbing, all that.

If you have noticed some of the water cooled bikes out now the radiator and plumbing are blended in to where you almost have to look for it.
GliderJohn

[leafman60]

For example ... ?

[Kev m]

Quote from Leafman60:
Big ugly radiator, plumbing, all that.

If you have noticed some of the water cooled bikes out now the radiator and plumbing are blended in to where you almost have to look for it.
GliderJohn

Actually no, I don't think that's true, especially for anything with classic lines similar to a V7, Bonnie, Cal-Vin, Harley etc...I don't think I've seen a water-cooled version of a bike like that where the radiator wasn't still quite visible and ugly...

[Gliderjohn]

Quote from Kevin M:

Actually no, I don't think that's true, especially for anything with classic lines similar to a V7, Bonnie, Cal-Vin, Harley etc...I don't think I've seen a water-cooled version of a bike like that where the radiator wasn't still quite visible and ugly...

You have a point. What i am thinking of is bikes that are pretty heavy on body work unlike your examples above. The problem is I really do not think there will be a choice in a few years. On the possible positive side those that want more power out of small blocks may get it with water cooling.
GliderJohn

[StelvioGT]

Would love for Guzzi to diversify it's lineup and not remain totally archaic forever.

[Kev m]

Quote from Kevin M:
Actually no, I don't think that's true, especially for anything with classic lines similar to a V7, Bonnie, Cal-Vin, Harley etc...I don't think I've seen a water-cooled version of a bike like that where the radiator wasn't still quite visible and ugly...

You have a point. What i am thinking of is bikes that are pretty heavy on body work unlike your examples above. The problem is I really do not think there will be a choice in a few years. On the possible positive side those that want more power out of small blocks may get it with water cooling.
GliderJohn

Yeah, it's much easier to hide it when you have a lot of bodywork - something like the Norge would hide it better than a Breva, but a Breva would hide it better than say a Bellagio or V7.

Unfortunately, I don't like bikes with much bodywork.

Honestly the essence of a bike is the motor and I want that to be clear, clean, exposed, visible etc, both from an aesthetic point of view and from an ease-of-service point of view.

And, yeah, I've heard for more than a decade the "it's gonna end soon" thing on air-cooled motors. But honestly, there is no reason it ever HAS TO, it's all in the hands of politicians and regulating bodies like the EPA.

That said, Harley is STILL not using Cat-Cons in 49 states and making current EPA standards, so they still have some breathing room.

I'll say this, if Guzzi goes all water while Harley and BMW make air/oil cooled models, I'll likely not buy another new Guzzi. And I prefer new bikes, so Guzzi's loss...

[Murray]

Would love for Guzzi to diversify it's lineup and not remain totally archaic forever.

This, to be honest I don't think staying aircooled is a option noise and pollution laws have caught up. BMW is doing the same to the boxer HD has enough clout to stand over US govt and ensure the aircooled motor will continue and that will work for them as the US is still by far their biggest market. Guzzi is just a bit of plankton in the ocean of europe. On the flip side a road going MGS-02 with serious bite I'd be up for that.

At least Piaggio is actually putting money into the brand and not simply winding it up.

[Kev m]

But it's not JUST Guzzi...

BMW, Triumph, Ducati, Royal Einfield, Ural all still sell air-cooled bikes (along with a handful of the Japanese models), they must have SOME collective lobbying presence in Europe no?

Look, I'm a bit of hippie from an environmental standpoint.

I bought an EFI bike as soon as I could for that reason.

I've kept the cat-cons on my bikes that have come with them.

I don't tune for max power at the cost of pollutants.

But for gawd's sake, would someone wake up and see how small an amount of pollution motorcycles are contributing to the overall picture.

We've cleaned up 2-strokes, with EFI we've seriously cleaned up motorcycles in general.

And just look at the overall fuel efficiency of smaller air-cooled models like the V7 or Bonnie... leave em alone...

[leafman60]

I agree with Kev.

[Dilliw]

For me this just solidifies my future Griso 8v purchase.  Not sure if we will see any of those previously reported concept bikes over here between now and this 2013 water-cooled model.  The current models could be the last of the breed.

[leafman60]

Behold, a fine example of a water-cooled bike where you have to look hard to find the radiator.  In fact, you have to look hard to find anything mechanical on this new Honda "adventure bike."  Lets ride the dirt roads on it !

[Pescara]

Totalitarianism knows no bounds.

My first street bike, in 1984, was a water-cooked dohc V4.  I rode it 50,000 miles, overhauled the engine and  learned that there's a better, more traditional way to build a motorcycle.   At that point they'd been been building them that way in Mandello for 65 years (90 years today)

Now, the plan is to stop making the motorcycles experience taught me were best and replace them with a liquid cooled dohc engine built by a scooter manufcturer.  And the EU regulators will be happy.

No f'ing way I'll be buying into that world view, on any level.    

[JohninVT`]

I care about how my motorcycle goes more than how it looks.  The air-cooled Guzzi V twin is a very handsome powerplant but if I can get better economy, more power, less emissions, longer maintenance intervals and retain the quality of power delivery....I am all for a radiator. 

Adding a radiator does not mean the essential character of the bike would change.  For me.  YMMV and all the rest.  The "Guzzi experience" for me is all about how the bike goes.  It's not about working on it or looking at it. 

[Kev m]

I care about how my motorcycle goes more than how it looks.  The air-cooled Guzzi V twin is a very handsome powerplant but if I can get better economy, more power, less emissions, longer maintenance intervals and retain the quality of power delivery....I am all for a radiator. 

Adding a radiator does not mean the essential character of the bike would change.  For me.  YMMV and all the rest.  The "Guzzi experience" for me is all about how the bike goes.  It's not about working on it or looking at it. 

I totally get that.

And I agree that FIRST and FOREMOST I want the bike to function the way I want.

But since the air-cooled models do everything I want from a functional standpoint, then my secondary requirements include aesthetics and maintenance.

And I don't like having to deal with coolant since it's not offering me any tangible benefit over my air-cooled motors.

[Ronkom]

"Skin Mechanic"
I worked 27 years as a Senior Technician in Advanced Materials R&D. My main projects the last decade were developing ceramic composites, but I also worked on a ceramic fuel cel project. The lab closed in 2003, ( I was laid off & took early retirement) the fuel cel work was bought by Rolls Royce. I meet a couple times a year with former coworkers now working for RR in Ohio. Latest word is a "go-nogo" production decision point at the end of 2011. I've lost count of how many "milestones" have been missed/delayed over the years. Of course, the whole project has morphed into a small power plant sized unit from a design that could have been used for smaller applications.
The reality is that they are still struggling with basic technical problems that I worked on in 2002. I'm not counting on driving a fuel cel powered vehicle in my lifetime.
Ron Komoroski

[rocker59]

Would love for Guzzi to diversify it's lineup and not remain totally archaic forever.

+1

[Seagondollar]

Behold, a fine example of a water-cooled bike where you have to look hard to find the radiator.  In fact, you have to look hard to find anything mechanical on this new Honda "adventure bike."  Lets ride the dirt roads on it !

Not a great example.  You have to look to see the motor, too. 

What is Guzzi known for? The chassis, and the motor (well shown)

And as for a bike that the radiator is well hidden?  Britten V1000



Considering how much flak they got for Terblanche's last efforts in Milan last year (and he's now with Norton), maybe they are very concerned about how well the next Le Mans, etc. go over

[Big Block Jon]

Considering how much flak they got for Terblanche's last efforts

I perceived this differently. In fact, Terblanche's designs won the major motorcycling design award and generated huge press and a wildly enthusiastic reception from most of the motorcycle buying world. It was on this board that there was a certain amount of grousing (although even on Wildguzzi, response was about thirty percent positive, If I recall).

If I were the company I would have to perceive the majority of folks on this board as "the past" in marketing terms. When you look at the ages, most of us have maybe one more new bike purchase in us, and truth be told, there aren't very many of us to start with.

[Big Block Jon]

That being said, I don't personally care for Terblanche's style much. Instead of form-follows-function he always seems to be in the stick-a-bunch-of-futuristic-crap-on-it-and-call-it-design camp.

But the one thing I drooled over with his designs was the idea of solid-state heat-sinks in place of water-cooling. That would be freaking revolutionary, and would vault Guzzi into the position of technology leader, while at the same time creating a legitimate excuse to retain the existing engine architecture (more or less).

[JohninVT`]

I care about how my motorcycle goes more than how it looks.  The air-cooled Guzzi V twin is a very handsome powerplant but if I can get better economy, more power, less emissions, longer maintenance intervals and retain the quality of power delivery....I am all for a radiator. 

Adding a radiator does not mean the essential character of the bike would change.  For me.  YMMV and all the rest.  The "Guzzi experience" for me is all about how the bike goes.  It's not about working on it or looking at it. 

I totally get that.

And I agree that FIRST and FOREMOST I want the bike to function the way I want.

But since the air-cooled models do everything I want from a functional standpoint, then my secondary requirements include aesthetics and maintenance.

And I don't like having to deal with coolant since it's not offering me any tangible benefit over my air-cooled motors.

...And there will always be a market for folks that love Sportsters.  There is nothing wrong with being satisfied with what a bike is rather than wishing it was more.  Where I think Guzzi is headed down the wrong path is liquid cooling the Cali series.  It should remain air-cooled in my opinion because it's sort of like mounting a radiator on a Sporty. 

The LC engine is an opportunity for Guzzi to branch out and obtain some buyers who wouldn't otherwise consider the brand.  For instance, a new Lemans is a good place for it.  The current engine in my 1200 Sport is good for maybe 80-85hp and 75-80-ft/lbs with minor mods.  Anything beyond that requires tearing into the engine.  It's already in a fairly high state of tune.  LC would change that.  If they came out with a LC Lemans that looked like the last generation(or an MGS-01) and had 90hp at the rear wheel along with 90+ft/lbs....I would trade my bike in on one immediately. 

Right now Guzzi is using aspirational marketing to try and sell bikes that don't meet the requirements.  A truly sporting model with tire wrinkling torque and superb fit and finish might change that.   

[Kev m]

 ;-T I absolutely agree John.

As such expanding into some models that are LC would be a smart move (almost a no brainer I would think).

[Pescara]

Advanced and effective aren't the same thing.  I'm all in favor of buying into any technology that makes a better performing, more effective sporting motorcycle...  by my definition, because its my money.   That would mean it has to be lightweight, home maintainable, and good for infinite life.

If you look at the total marketplace failure of companies like Porsche trying to compete with aircraft engine designs that have a lot in common with Moto Guzzi, you'll understand that not every market has the childish consumer mentality that characterizes the customer base for most motorcycle manufacturers.  The beauty of Guzzi was that they catered to a smarter market than the zillions of yo-yos who buy a motorcycle, kill it or crash it before it wears out then buy another, remaining forever broke.

I have one complex, liquid cooled motorcycle (my ST2).  The reason it is practical is that it was very cheap to buy, and because I only put 2000 miles/year on it.   The heavy lifting gets done by other stuff like my R100GS.

[rocker59]

Behold, a fine example of a water-cooled bike where you have to look hard to find the radiator.  In fact, you have to look hard to find anything mechanical on this new Honda "adventure bike."  Lets ride the dirt roads on it !

"adventure-styled" streetbike, maybe.  "adventure bike", no...

[bad Chad]

Totalitarianism knows no bounds.

My first street bike, in 1984, was a water-cooked dohc V4.  I rode it 50,000 miles, overhauled the engine and  learned that there's a better, more traditional way to build a motorcycle.   At that point they'd been been building them that way in Mandello for 65 years (90 years today)

Now, the plan is to stop making the motorcycles experience taught me were best and replace them with a liquid cooled dohc engine built by a scooter manufcturer.  And the EU regulators will be happy.

No f'ing way I'll be buying into that world view, on any level.    

Did either of these two sources say that Guzzi planned to kill the air cooled motor???

[bad Chad]

Cool, I at last have a reason to put a trailer hitch on my bubble car! ;-T Wait, scratch that as my future car hasn't been built yet either.

I'll just be happy that Guzzi's still selling bikes in 2013.

I'm still waiting on hydrogen fuel cell cars to go into production. The engineers always claim, "in 5-7 years fuel cell cars will be ready for consumers"... Yeah right, researchers have been sayin' that crap for 30 years. It won't happen, cause the big oil companies have everybody by the nads. As for MG selling bike in 2013, don't forget that the world ends on 12/21/2012 ;D ::)

If you live in So Cal you can lease one, $600 a month!
http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/

[Pescara]

Did either of these two sources say that Guzzi planned to kill the air cooled motor???

I guarantee you 100% that every new "Moto Guzzi" engine from now forward will be designed and built at Piaggio, just like this one. 

[JohninVT`]

Did either of these two sources say that Guzzi planned to kill the air cooled motor???

I guarantee you 100% that every new "Moto Guzzi" engine from now forward will be designed and built at Piaggio, just like this one. 

...And your point is? 

Lots of folks here scoff at anything that isn't in a Tonti frame.  Others claim Loops are the only Guzzi they'd ride.  I happen to think it's wonderfully nice of Piaggio not to can every single person in Mandello and kill Guzzi completely.  The company hemorrages money.  I'm just happy I can get spares. 

[Pescara]

Did either of these two sources say that Guzzi planned to kill the air cooled motor???

I guarantee you 100% that every new "Moto Guzzi" engine from now forward will be designed and built at Piaggio, just like this one.

...And your point is?  

Lots of folks here scoff at anything that isn't in a Tonti frame.  Others claim Loops are the only Guzzi they'd ride.  I happen to think it's wonderfully nice of Piaggio not to can every single person in Mandello and kill Guzzi completely.  The company hemorrages money.  I'm just happy I can get spares.  

Go to Mandello and learn about Moto Guzzi, the company and people.  I can't teach you.