*California 1400 Merged Threadfest*

[JohninVT`]

Did either of these two sources say that Guzzi planned to kill the air cooled motor???

I guarantee you 100% that every new "Moto Guzzi" engine from now forward will be designed and built at Piaggio, just like this one.

...And your point is?  

Lots of folks here scoff at anything that isn't in a Tonti frame.  Others claim Loops are the only Guzzi they'd ride.  I happen to think it's wonderfully nice of Piaggio not to can every single person in Mandello and kill Guzzi completely.  The company hemorrages money.  I'm just happy I can get spares.  

Go to Mandello and learn about Moto Guzzi, the company and people.  I can't teach you.

It's a motorcycle.  I do not have an emotional attachment to it outside the memories I have accrued while riding it with people I care about.  Triumphs are made in Thailand.  BMW's are made in China.  BFD.   

There is no Moto Guzzi.  There is a brand wholly owned by a conglomerate which through its' benificence, continues to put out motorcycles in a recognizably Guzzi design.  Moto Guzzi is someone's project at Piaggio that is being continued when every reasonable person would have thrown in the towel. 

I am sorry that I was condescending in my previous post.  I am well aware of the history of MG.  Have a good evening.     

[Pescara]

Did either of these two sources say that Guzzi planned to kill the air cooled motor???

I guarantee you 100% that every new "Moto Guzzi" engine from now forward will be designed and built at Piaggio, just like this one.

...And your point is?  

Lots of folks here scoff at anything that isn't in a Tonti frame.  Others claim Loops are the only Guzzi they'd ride.  I happen to think it's wonderfully nice of Piaggio not to can every single person in Mandello and kill Guzzi completely.  The company hemorrages money.  I'm just happy I can get spares.  

Go to Mandello and learn about Moto Guzzi, the company and people.  I can't teach you.

It's a motorcycle.  I do not have an emotional attachment to it outside the memories I have accrued while riding it with people I care about.  Triumphs are made in Thailand.  BMW's are made in China.  BFD.    

There is no Moto Guzzi.  There is a brand wholly owned by a conglomerate which through its' benificence, continues to put out motorcycles in a recognizably Guzzi design.  Moto Guzzi is someone's project at Piaggio that is being continued when every reasonable person would have thrown in the towel.  

I am sorry that I was condescending in my previous post.  I am well aware of the history of MG.  Have a good evening.    

Your ideas are in my opinion puerile.

[JohninVT`]

Peurile is better than effete.  It's just a motorcycle and it's Friday night on the internet. 

   

[Pescara]

Peurile is better than effete.  It's just a motorcycle and it's Friday night on the internet.  

Like I said, I clearly can't teach you much.  

I've been to Mandello more times than I can count, I do get it, but Moto Guzzi is not something you're not going to understand.  And there are a lot more like you.

[HDGoose]

Peurile is better than effete.  It's just a motorcycle and it's Friday night on the internet. 

Like I said, I clearly can't teach you much. 

I've been to Mandello more times than I can count, I do get it, but Moto Guzzi is not something you're not going to understand.  And there are a lot more like you.

"If I have to explain, you would not understand" ;)

[Pescara]

Peurile is better than effete.  It's just a motorcycle and it's Friday night on the internet. 

Like I said, I clearly can't teach you much. 

I've been to Mandello more times than I can count, I do get it, but Moto Guzzi is not something you're not going to understand.  And there are a lot more like you.

"If I have to explain, you would not understand" ;)

 ;D ;D

I think you can explain what Guzzi is all about, how unique they are, and some people get it.  Others aren't capable of it even if they've been there and seen it.  That's life.

[JohninVT`]

Peurile is better than effete.  It's just a motorcycle and it's Friday night on the internet.  

Like I said, I clearly can't teach you much.  

I've been to Mandello more times than I can count, I do get it, but Moto Guzzi is not something you're not going to understand.

You're right.  Guzzi should continue making bikes that 3,000 people a year buy when they need to make 10,000 just to break even.  They should continue with a failed business model.  They should thumb their noses at more stringent emissions requirements or any future regulations that effect their product.  They should continue flailing away in Mandello when they could make better, less expensive bikes elsewhere.  

I'm happy for you.  I really am.  While you're patting yourself on the back for "getting it" and visiting a town in Italy there are brand new, unsold 2008 Norges and 1200 Sports sitting in the US warehouse.  

The thread is about liquid cooling select future models.  If you want to continue claiming that I'm being childish, send me a PM.  Otherwise let's talk liquid cooling.        

[Pescara]

Yes, Piaggio has failed.   They introduced bikes that cost a great deal to develop and which have failed to sell, because they fail to capitalize on what Guzzi is all about.  The answer is not more of the same.

[bad Chad]

What has Piaggio introduced, that Aprillia did not have on the drawing board already?   I'm serious, I don't know the answer.

[bad Chad]

Behold, a fine example of a water-cooled bike where you have to look hard to find the radiator.  In fact, you have to look hard to find anything mechanical on this new Honda "adventure bike."  Lets ride the dirt roads on it !

"adventure-styled" streetbike, maybe.  "adventure bike", no...

by the way, this Honda looks as though someone should do it a favor, and "put it down"   American colloquialism meaning to kill it, as it put is out of it's misery.

[Greg Field]

Still makes no sense whatsoever to build a LC V-twin & mount it transversely so the cylinders are out in the wind...  ::)

Exactly. It's Piaggio, though, so it probably makes perfect sense to them.

[Pescara]

What has Piaggio introduced, that Aprillia did not have on the drawing board already?   I'm serious, I don't know the answer.

Piaggio has concentrated on deconstructing Guzzi's engine capabilities, letting Aprilia maintain their leadership in screwing up Guzzi's overall product range.    ::)

The change when Piaggio bought Aprilia was in who develops the engines: Piaggio now designs the engines instead of Rotax, Suzuki, or Guzzi.  The late model 8V Guzzi engine was designed by Piaggio, based on the pre-existing Guzzi designs.  There was no change in chassis design and styling when Piaggio bought Aprilia, because Aprilia still does that work now.  The Breva, Norge and Griso were all conceived of pre-Piaggio.  I suspect the Stelvio was conceived of by Aprilia after Piaggio took over.

[trippah]

I've always wondered why they can't broad finn the frame and make it the radiator.  Narrow finn would be more efficient for heat transfer but who likes sliced leggs. ;D

As for Mandello and the Marque's mystique...I loved MG's (Morris Garage) in the past, simle machines that were fun; new ones would probably be designed and built in Malaysia.   The sad truth is either reasonably modern and living, olde but goodie and gone....

[Pescara]

As for Mandello and the Marque's mystique...I loved MG's (Morris Garage) in the past, simple machines that were fun; new ones would probably be designed and built in Malaysia.   The sad truth its either reasonably modern and living, olde but goodie and gone....

The last gasp of MG was under far-eastern ownership.  MG went the same route as Moto Guzzi is going: shutting down production at the historic MG factory in Abingdon in 1980, then losing their base and 'modernizing' under Rover, then dying with Rover with 2005.  The Chinese then took over and also failed in 2010.

Here's the "reasonably modern" car that didn't do nearly as well as the Abingdon-built ones you liked...



Here's the web site of the old fashioned MG competitor with the 2011 waiting list:

http://www.morgan-motor.co.uk/

[saturno norway]

I sincerely hope not,if emission issues do it necessary, what about an anti plastic BRASS framed old fashioned radiator?

[bad Chad]

So the answer is nothing.  Piaggio has yet to bring an entirely new Moto Guzzi to market.  

If Piaggio does bring out an motor that is not a transverse Vtwin for Moto Guzzi, it had better be revolutionary.

Greg Field has said that MG has been is a state at or near bankruptcy since the original v700.   I tend to agree with him on that, at least until Piaggio absorbed the brand.   Now for better or worse, the 90 deg L twin is what Guzzi is know for, really little else.   So if Guzzi were to produce anything that's been done before, and was not markedly better in some way, their identity would fade into the wind.   How hard would that be to do?   My guess, pretty hard.   Thus as I see it, they have two choices.  One come out with something revolutionary.  Two evolve the 90 L transverse.   Really, I would like to see them do both.   However, if you were running Piaggio, what would you do given where we are in 2011?

[Pescara]

However, if you were running Piaggio, what would you do given where we are in 2011?

Sell the company to those who could run it.  See Morgan link above as an example of what might follow.  Build customer base out of the mainstream market.

In 1971, Moto Guzzi built 46,487 motorcycles at Mandello.

[Seagondollar]

Enough about politics and business.

As much as I love the old V twin, I'm hoping this new one has improved casting techniques with the cases that result in the same strength and lighter weight. 

As for liquid cooling, it is an inevitability.  It allows closer piston to bore tolerances and lower emissions.  All that with increased performance from the gas used.  I say bring it on.  I also frequent the Allpar forum and it is disappointing to hear folks over there talking about how Chrysler and Dodge need to survive in the coming market (spelled gas prices) and still believe the 318 is the way to go.  (Sorry GuzziMike, as much as I love the 318, the new Pentastar V6 & the 2.4 are the future)

[Greg Field]

Nobody loves the Guzzi twin more than I do, but it has not been a success for the company. If they keep the across-the-frame twin and just water-cool it, they'll still have a 3,000-units-a-year seller.

Why bother?

Start afresh. It's long past time.

[JohninVT`]

However, if you were running Piaggio, what would you do given where we are in 2011?

Sell the company to those who could run it.  See Morgan link above as an example of what might follow.  Build customer base out of the mainstream market.

In 1971, Moto Guzzi built 46,487 motorcycles at Mandello.

My own puerile opinion is that the answer is NOT for Guzzi to handbuild obscenely expensive bikes for rich people who can barely ride and only buy them as status symbols.  That's the Morgan business model.  Morgan's are beautiful but how many people can enjoy them at 100 thousand dollars?    

Selling 46,487 motorcycles in 1971 is meaningless in this discussion.  That was 40 years ago.  As recently as 5 years ago, Triumph only sold 37,000 motorcycles a year.  The market is completely different than it was 40 years ago.  So are motorcycles, whether we all like it or not.    

The only way MG has survived has been by sucking the corporate teat of bigger companies who were large enough to basically ignore MG.  MG has been like a remora living off the scraps of its' parent company for decades.  The best thing that could happen to Guzzi is if one or two really talented and dedicated folks from Piaggio take interest and meddle just enough to keep the money flowing for a few new products.  

Therre is nothing about Guzzi from the last two decades to suggest that it is a viable independant concern.  Anyone with enough money to buy it would also be smart enough not to.  

It would be great if they could introduce a new, liquid cooled Lemans but not apply LC across the board.  They'd be able to maintain their air-cooled Cali line while bringing new buyers on board.              

[Rainman]

Why not put the New 'Aprilia Dorsoduro 1200' motor in a Guzzi? All the engineering is done. With a new crank and crankcase it should fit fine in the existing drive train. :BEER: "The Right Way"
It would be a 130 hp parts bin Guzzi monster. ;D




http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/firstrides/122_1011_aprilia_dorsoduro_1200_first_ride/index.html

[Murray]

In 1971, Moto Guzzi built 46,487 motorcycles at Mandello.

In 1971 Guzzi produced what could be easily recognised as a up date modern motorcycle, in the same  year they produced the worlds fastest production motorcycle. If you look back to the era's Guzzi did well it was when it was able to move with the times and produce what the market wanted. To be locked into a engine configuration and a cooling technique has got them where they are today.

[Pescara]

Yes, times change and Guzzi must change to remain a viable business.  In the here and now, it has proved impossible for any Italian manufacturer to compete in the mainstream motorcycle market.  The same arguments were presented in 2005, Piaggio modernity was Guzzi's savior then too, and their ideas proved to be a failure.

Mainstream isn't going to work, and if they really wanted to give it an all or nothing shot regardless, they would need to stand back and take a hard, honest look at the kind of bike that works the best given today's mainstream technology, not build a totally contrived, technically wacko watercooled longitudinal twin that's got a foot in both camps, and will fail. They would also need to design and build the engine themselves, to retain any sense of authenticity in the market.

I mentioned the 1971 production figure to make it clear that a properly run Moto Guzzi has enough capacity to build any number of engines themselves.  

 

[JohninVT`]

Here is a question that is posed in sincerity with no sarcasm or snark.....is a Ducati 916 any less of a Ducati than a 750SS?  Does the fact the 916 is liquid cooled detract in any way from its' inherent "Ducati-ness"?  Forget which you would prefer to own and just think about whether one is less of a "Ducati" than the other.    

For me, they are both iconic bikes from the same manufacturer.  That the 916 happens to have a radiator would not detract from my enjoyment of it.  Like Guzzi, Ducati was originally know for singles before branching into twins.  The Ducati L twin is every bit as aligned with Ducati's past as Guzzi's V twin.  I see a potential LC Guzzi in this framework.          

[LowRyter]

I'd like to see some new models...

at the same time I'd like to see pushrod Tonti-based bikes...and 8v Vtwin LeMans + cafe sport bike too.  Would be nice to get about 110 hp from that 8v...

[Pescara]

Here is a question that is posed in sincerity with no sarcasm or snark.....is a Ducati 916 any less of a Ducati than a 750SS?  Does the fact the 916 is liquid cooled detract in any way from its' inherent "Ducati-ness"?  Forget which you would prefer to own and just think about whether one is less of a "Ducati" than the other.    

For me, they are both iconic bikes from the same manufacturer.  That the 916 happens to have a radiator would not detract from my enjoyment of it.  Like Guzzi, Ducati was originally know for singles before branching into twins.  The Ducati L twin is every bit as aligned with Ducati's past as Guzzi's V twin.  I see a potential LC Guzzi in this framework.          

The 916 was the product of two excellent engineers, Tamburini and Bordi, and is just as much a Ducati as the 70s SS.  The difference is that water cooling was a natural fit for their engine configuration and design intent.  In the late 80s, when Bordi went to water cooling, the intent was to increase power density for racing, a very different application, using a cylinder configuration that was compromised for handling and against good cooling from day one. In the early 90s, that was useful for Tamburini in designing a productionized Bimota.  None of the above has anything to do with Moto Guzzi or its potential 2013 market.

[Amboman]

Here is a question that is posed in sincerity with no sarcasm or snark.....is a Ducati 916 any less of a Ducati than a 750SS?  Does the fact the 916 is liquid cooled detract in any way from its' inherent "Ducati-ness"?  Forget which you would prefer to own and just think about whether one is less of a "Ducati" than the other.    

For me, they are both iconic bikes from the same manufacturer.  That the 916 happens to have a radiator would not detract from my enjoyment of it.  Like Guzzi, Ducati was originally know for singles before branching into twins.  The Ducati L twin is every bit as aligned with Ducati's past as Guzzi's V twin.  I see a potential LC Guzzi in this framework.          

The difference is: the liquid-cooled Ducati engines are derived from the original Fabio Taglioni designed air-cooled engine of the early '80s, so have direct lineage. A new water-cooled "Guzzi" engine will most definitely not be derived from either of the present air-cooled engines, so the line will be broken.  

[Pescara]

Fabio Taglioni designed the air cooled Ducati engines, including the belt drive engines.  Bordi was his protege and the rest is correct :-)

Bordi is now leading Cagiva/MV in his 60s after years out of the motorcycle biz.

[Kent in Upstate NY]

Definitely winter.

[kevdog3019]

At the moment Guzzi does not have to survive on its own.  It's a branch of Piaggio.  Piaggio bought Guzzi to round out it's fleet of available offerings.  I think it would be better served doing what it's doing, but doing it one step better.  It has done this to some extent over the past couple of years with the 8 valve big blocks.  It would be nice to get an 8 valve small block.  Next it needs to offer some of those award-winning bikes into the marketplace.  This might open some eyes!!  A little better quality control thrown in wouldn't hurt.  I don't think throwing in water-cooling is Guzzi's answer in competing with most everyone else.  Is it necessary to be like everyone else to compete with everyone else?  Ask Steve Jobs at Apple about that.  I still think they have a gem in the rough with the current mill.  If they kept the current transverse V and added some water and kept the weight down, I would be game.  I'm afraid more things would change is all and I'm not convinced it's the right answer.  
-Kevin