*California 1400 Merged Threadfest*

[Kev m]

Why all the talk about comparing HD to MG?  HD has one style bike a very narrow focus and has developed a househod name for itself.  Whenever I tell someone (non-bikers) I ride bikes, they say what do you have a Harley.  If I say Ducati, Guzzi or Triumph, they oh I never heard of them.

Guzzi has more in common with BMW, Ducati and Triumph and follwing their lead would be a good thing for the brand.  And yes they both have air and liquid cooled engines.

A Guzzi dealership cannot stand alone in the US.

Couple of thoughts Jim:

First off ONLY NON-RIDERS haven't heard of Ducati, Guzzi or Triumph. This is most significant in sales of introductory models though I guess it is somewhat representative of the overall brand image. Still, by the time someone gets some experience with motorcycles they know those brands.

Kinda like BMW, I can't tell you how many times I've heard "they make bikes?". Hell, I once called a motorcycle junkyard in TN when we had an airhead with a broken coil at a hotel on a road trip. When I asked if they had any BMW coils the voice on the other side said (with a deep drawl) "Siiiiir, this here's a MOTOR-SICYLE JunkYARD".  ::) But somehow they've grown to 100k annual sales worldwide.

Anyway, Harley and Guzzi are similar in the following ways

1. Long-Lived marque with significant history.
2. Predominantly air-cooled motors
3. Ease of maintenance.
4. Bikes that add up to more than the sum of their parts (i.e. no where near the cutting edge of performance, but bikes that do what they do very well).
5. That X factor - that almost intangible quality of visceralness, something more than a simple appliance.
6. Currently produce only variances on one basic engine design (V-rod not-with-standing).

BUT, I disagree that Guzzi offers more styles of bikes and that the Harley is only one narrow focus.

Harley has the 883/1200 EVO 4-cam, the 96, 103 and 110 BT 2-cam, and the water-cooled OHC V-rd
Guzzi has the 750cc small-block and 3 related flavors of the 1100/1200cc Big-Block (varying only in valve train and charging system)

Harley offers bikes on variations of 5 different chassis (6 if you count trikes)
Guzzi offers bikes on variations of 3 different chassis

Harley offers bikes from an MSRP of about $7k-30k
Guzzi offers bikes from an MSRP of about $9k-16k

Harley offers Sportsters (from entry level lowered cruisers to standards to sporting models), Dynas (Sporty big twin cruisers), Softails (traditional looking cruisers), Vrods (muscle cruisers), Touring models, and now Trikes.

Guzzi offers - V7/N7 (from entry level cruisers to standards), B1200/G1200 (sporting models), S1200 ("adventure" bike), N12 (Sport-touring model), Cali (from classic standard to touring models).

The only real difference is that Guzzi offers a specific Sport-Tourer and Adventure bike - but it's a single bike in both cases. But Harley still appeals to a wider audience obviously, largely beacuse of brand image/marketing, but ALSO because of ease of ownership from having so many different flavors, dealers and accessories to "make it fit/work" for each individual rider.

I would say BMW and Triumph have more variations in bikes/chassis.

I would also note that Ducati is at least as narrowly focused as Guzzi/Harley, possibly more so.

But Harley and BMW dealers CAN stand alone.

What it comes down to is volume and brand image.

[dgurovich]

Harley has 50+% of the American Market.  Guzzi isn't even a blip.  End of comparison.

Big companies tend to not do stupid stuff for long.  I work for GM.  They're now the second-largest automaker in the world (only 30,000 cars behind Toyota).  They actually have a trade surplus with China, selling more Buicks there than in the US.

Piaggio has been selling millions of two-wheeled bikes for years.  I think the blame-game is up for why Guzzi can't sell more bikes than BMW builds in a day.  

They were in deep doo-doo even during the SEIMM era when the V-Twins first came out.  They couldn't wait to sell it to DeTomaso, who immediately reduced cost and quality across the board and marketed Benelli-built bikes with Moto Guzzi logos.  

Was it the 16-inch front wheels, that were only there for looks long after other manufacturers gave up on the set-up?

Was it the quality control of the nineties when bikes coming over were a mess?  Was it the Hydraulic lifters?  8V recalls last year?

Was it lackluster marketing?  Supply chain issues?  Cranky workers in an antique factory?  No money for R&D?  

My point is, it's a target-rich environment.  Whether Guzzi needs to sell 3000 units or 3 million units, two things are for sure:

1. They aren't going to do it on the same platform that hasn't worked for them over the last two decades.  Making a few smart tweaks here and there are not going to make the dramatic turnaround that needs to happen here.  Let's face it, they can't find 3000 people out of the billions of people on this planet to buy their current inventory, even though, according to this list, everyone in the planet recognizes, respects and even envies the design.

2. Whatever they do, it's going to have to be fast, or they're going to end up like Oldsmobile, Pontiac, Hummer and Saturn.  They all had some great new stuff coming out...before the plug got pulled.

Doing the same thing over an over again and expecting different results is the definition of insanity.

[Kev m]

Harley has 50+% of the American Market.  Guzzi isn't even a blip.  End of comparison.

I'm talking about the products, not the company.

Was it the quality control of the nineties when bikes coming over were a mess?  Was it the Hydraulic lifters?  8V recalls last year?

I don't think this has anything to do with it, because 99% of the motorcycle buying public has no knowledge of these things. At least, not until they come here and ask questions while doing research and the luddittes torpedo the next sale.

I still say it's marketing and dealers, that it.

The frickin' product is there.

It seems like whenever you get someone in the saddle for a ride they are sold.

My plan?

CAREFULLY expand dealers, you have to really vet new ones, but make it attractive to them to carry. Low interest, but put something in place to help them hold prices (I know you can't price fix, but more and more I see brands where you can't get a price break - Bose being one example). I think you want to give them the ability to carry Guzzi and Aprilia and Piaggio BUT not force them to (just make it attractive with incentives).

SLASH prices on the small-blocks. Make em a loss leader, a real bargain and therefore real attractive. Like Harley with the Sportster, once you get people on it some will be happy and just stay there, but you can sell the "big block" as the "next step up" (I know this isn't necessarily the case small-block guys, but it's effectiev marketing).

You grow the owner base from the bottom up.

[jreagan]

When I bought my Breva 1100, I didn't know where they were built.  I didn't know if they had hydrolic valves or not.  I didn't know if it was water or air cooled.  I didn't know that the dealer network was sparse since my dealer seemed reasonable and intelligent.  I didn't care that it had a shaft drive vs a chain (after all, my Triumph has a chain and I'm happy with it).  I didn't know much about the brand other than it was low volume and had a history.  What I DID know was that I was looking for a nice 2-up capable bike that looked good to my eye.  It did.  I bought it.

Looking back, would I have been happy with some other sport tourer, probably.  Do I regret the purchase?  nope.

[dgurovich]

"SLASH prices on the small-blocks. Make em a loss leader"

There is no markup at all now on the small-blocks.  Dealers make little or no money on them now.  The entire line is a loss-leader.  The 1200 Sport hasn't been manufactured in two years and you can still buy them brand new at a deeply discounted price.  Those discounts come out of hardworking dealer's pockets, either the ones that had the bikes on the floor for two years, or the ones that have to compete to sell new bikes while other dealers blow stuff out the door cheap.  Being a Moto Guzzi dealer is a thankless job.  Not much support from marketing, not a lot of wiggle room on prices, and guys on this list that think they should give their product away or match ridiculous prices from a thousand miles away.

Guzzi should take all the information on this thread and do EXACTLY the opposite of all the advice -- the people on Wild Guzzi are not going to make Guzzi successful, and I would say they've chased more potential Guzzisti away than they've recruited.

[Kev m]

"SLASH prices on the small-blocks. Make em a loss leader"

There is no markup at all now on the small-blocks.  Dealers make little or no money on them now.  The entire line is a loss-leader.  The 1200 Sport hasn't been manufactured in two years and you can still buy them brand new at a deeply discounted price.  Those discounts come out of hardworking dealer's pockets, either the ones that had the bikes on the floor for two years, or the ones that have to compete to sell new bikes while other dealers blow stuff out the door cheap.  Being a Moto Guzzi dealer is a thankless job.  Not much support from marketing, not a lot of wiggle room on prices, and guys on this list that think they should give their product away or match ridiculous prices from a thousand miles away.

Guzzi should take all the information on this thread and do EXACTLY the opposite of all the advice -- the people on Wild Guzzi are not going to make Guzzi successful, and I would say they've chased more potential Guzzisti away than they've recruited.

Perhaps you should have read and understood my whole post before jumping to conclusions.

I said these are the steps that PIAGGIO needs to take.

They (not the dealers) need to find a way to drop the price of the small-blocks to $7k or so at the most.

Then THEY (PIAGGIO) need to find ways to then incentivize dealers to carry them and other Guzzi models and NOT cut prices below a certain point.

I.E. - a low price loss-leader to bring new buyers into the brand, and then have more expensive big-block models that are perceived as the next step up with better benefits/features etc.

They need to grow the brand from the bottom up.

The new Triumph did not reach their success by selling bikes priced only in the upper half of the market.

Ducati didn't start seeing a surge in sales until their lower priced Monster models became popular.

Harley does well because they sell 50-70k bikes at price which are for the most part less than the V7, they at least have 2-3 models that are a good $2k cheaper. A large percentage of people who buy those cheaper models look to upgrade later and stay with the brand.

Hell even BMW figured that out more than a decade ago with the F650 line.

[Skeeve]

Make Modella a museum.  ;D  ;D  ;D

Modella? Isn't that a processed meat product, or a variety of cheese or sumthin'?

Hey, I like that! A museum made of cheese!..  :D

[Skeeve]

"SLASH prices on the small-blocks. Make em a loss leader"

There is no markup at all now on the small-blocks.  Dealers make little or no money on them now.  The entire line is a loss-leader.  ...  Being a Moto Guzzi dealer is a thankless job.  Not much support from marketing, not a lot of wiggle room on prices, and guys on this list that think they should give their product away or match ridiculous prices from a thousand miles away.

If there is no markup on the small blocks [a completely amortized production line: they've only been in production relatively unchanged for what, 30 years?] then Piaggio has bigger problems than their boneheaded lack of field support for Guzzi! There is no, none, zip, nada, ZERO reason for a baby Breva or Nevada or whatever to cost more than a Suzuki Gladys: the small-block Tonti has [aside from minor updates] been in production THREE TIMES LONGER (by even the most generous definition) than the Suzi-Q 650 twin which has seen far more $ignificant update$ over it$ $horter life$pan.

If Piaggio cannot bring an at least comparably equipped s-b to market [ie, dual front discs] for <$1k more than their "competition," well, then they're bound for the trash heap of history. Sketchy quality control & the "mystique" of cr@ppy dealer support [not the dealers' fault; it's poor coverage, response time from PGNA, etc I'm talking about here] will only carry you so far...

The reality is this: Piaggio thinks of Guzzi & Aprillia as "supplemental brands" to help further their goal of selling more Vespa dealerships in a country that never saw the need for scooters outside of a very few, very dense urban metropolitan centers. [SFO, NYNY, maybe Chicago & Beantown? (hel)L.A., D.C. or Miami (maybe)?

So if the dealers are paying too much for the small-blocks ex-factory from Piaggio because Piaggio sees them as the cash cow of the Guzzi lineup, that doesn't change the fact that they're a "beginners' or chicks' bike" in the eyes of the U.S. marketplace & need to be priced more aggressively if they're going to be useful as a means of moving repeat buyers to the big blocks [where the real money is: let's face it, there's no reason *any* of the older designs should cost more than their 1970s price in constant dollars, which would put them at about what, $8k now? ;)]

[Skeeve]

Harley is not the largest motorcycle manufacturer.  It's Honda.  In the US, HD has the largest market share but they are not the largest worldwide manufacturer.      

No argument, just want to point out that the likely source of confusion here is that Harley has been cited as the largest manufacturer of "large" [750+cc] motorcycles in the world, & had been for several years running [at least up to about 2008? or -9 when the whole worldwide economic bubble burst...]

Lies, damned lies & statistics doncha' know... ;)

[Skeeve]

It is not rational to water-cool the transverse-V engine. It is rational to dump the "traditional" Guzzi V for a less-disadvantageous architecture when designing a water-cooled motor. A rational observer would be forced to point out that those criticizing this observation are the real Luddites in this discussion.

Thanks Greg! That's what I was saying way back on page 1? or 2?

I have no problem [actually, I relish the thought!] of Piaggio going to a new engine format for Guzzi to give the brand some hope for the future. As someone else pointed out, Honda has abandoned the longitudinal V4 of the ST1100 & ST1300 [iirc, the ST1300 is only available as NOS & the police bikes now] and if Guzzi is going to w/c the motor, this makes a lot more sense as it is easier to get the power #s to compare w/ the competition for those [unfortunately, prevalent] buyers who shop by the statistical "features." It makes more sense to lose the antiquated & performance-robbing shaft drive layout & go to a more rational motor design entirely, but Piaggio may not want to jar their "faithful" any more than Harley did [which is why the VR motor became such a lardball, instead of the performance motor that Erik Buell was looking for when H-D began that project...]

That said, I still believe that I would be a buyer of the new QV air-cooled mill in the traditional Guzzi layout first, since that design still appeals to me...

[Kev m]

Harley is not the largest motorcycle manufacturer.  It's Honda.  In the US, HD has the largest market share but they are not the largest worldwide manufacturer.      

No argument, just want to point out that the likely source of confusion here is that Harley has been cited as the largest manufacturer of "large" [750+cc] motorcycles in the world, & had been for several years running [at least up to about 2008? or -9 when the whole worldwide economic bubble burst...]

Lies, damned lies & statistics doncha' know... ;)

Harley claims that they sell, at least in the US, the most "heavyweight motorcycles" - defined as 750+cc.

Regional sales figures I've seen (from a friend who was a GM at an all-brands and Harley dealer and who recevied regional reports based on registrations) showed that, at least with the time-frame snapshots I saw, Harley sold 4x as much as the nearest competitor (one of the Japanese brands) and about equivalent to all the other manufacturers combined when it comes to registerable, on-road motorcycles in the US.

Honda et al obviously sells a ton more product, but that includes dirt bikes, ATVs, Generators, Jet Skis bla bla bla (oh yeah, and a few cars too ;) ).

[Skeeve]

How about a water cooled Falcone with disk brakes? Hide the radiator as part of the rear fender. Yeah, make it a 12V system too. Really step into the future...

Not too far off the mark there, Carl: Piaggio can put the lay-down single from the MP3 maxi-scooters into a "traditional" motorcycle frame w/ some performance ambitions, and call it the "Millenium Falcone"  ;D or something suitably trendy that still plays on Guzzi tradition & have a winner!

Quick to market, comes in at a [desperately needed] price point lower than the present small blocks due to economies of scale, & best of all, they can keep the infinite ratio transmission scooter final drive if they put their minds to it: really appealing for the n00bs! But it will be a "real motorcycle" as opposed to a scooter [some people have a hang up about scooters: I don't, they're far more utilitarian and rational than a motorcycle, but what're you gonna do?]

Are you listening Piaggio?

[Skeeve]

I ask you all this, what would Guzzi have to do to make their bikes desirable to young riders over all the other manufacturers seeking to do the same? Making a better Harley may be a short dream as customers dry up. I hope someone is on top of this.

Nothing. The fact is that there are no new young riders because:

1] Hospital bills and health care cost too d@mn much, ergo having kids & raising them is expen$ive. So parents don't want to see their investment get on a street bike & get killed.

2] Why spend all the money on dirt bikes for kids [purchase, maintenance, fuel, equipment, transport] when they'd rather have a PlayWiiBox anyway? No new young dirt riders = reduced #s of street riders once they reach the age where they can get their license to drive... It's no wonder that the avg. age of motorcyclists in the U.S. has been climbing since the end of the 1st dirt bike boom in the mid-70s.

3] Have you seen the price of a new motorcycle these days?  :o

[Lannis]

3] Have you seen the price of a new motorcycle these days?  :o

Back when I was making $2.75 an hour sweeping streets and cleaning loos, a new Yamaha R5 350 was $700 + tax, or about 250 hours work.   

Today, a young man sweating on a construction crew for $9.00 an hour will work about 750 hours to buy the average 600cc sport bike.

Part of the problem is that everyone has to have a 100 HP fully featured motorcycle these days.   We considered the 350 Yamaha a full-sized, full-featured bike at the time that you could ride with pride anywhere anytime, and it would go fast (100 MPH) and get good mileage (50 MPG) and tires cost $9.00 each (4 hours wages) from JC Whitney.   TODAY'S tires cost a guy 18 hours wages, and Mom and Dad are probably paying for that ....

Just part and parcel with all the OTHER increases in "the need" for material things that we've come to expect over the last generation ....

Lannis

[Amboman]

Guzzi should take all the information on this thread and do EXACTLY the opposite of all the advice -- the people on Wild Guzzi are not going to make Guzzi successful, and I would say they've chased more potential Guzzisti away than they've recruited.

Maybe they should hire you...  ::)  ;D

[Lannis]

Guzzi should take all the information on this thread and do EXACTLY the opposite of all the advice -- the people on Wild Guzzi are not going to make Guzzi successful, and I would say they've chased more potential Guzzisti away than they've recruited.

Maybe they should hire you...  ::)  ;D

Or do the opposite, since the advice came from this list?   ???   ??? 

[Kev m]

Today, a young man sweating on a construction crew for $9.00 an hour will work about 750 hours to buy the average 600cc sport bike.

Part of the problem is that everyone has to have a 100 HP fully featured motorcycle these days.   We considered the 350 Yamaha a full-sized, full-featured bike at the time that you could ride with pride anywhere anytime, and it would go fast (100 MPH) and get good mileage (50 MPG) and tires cost $9.00 each (4 hours wages) from JC Whitney.   TODAY'S tires cost a guy 18 hours wages, and Mom and Dad are probably paying for that ....

My bud who was the GM for an all brands dealer up until recently said there was another factor - the credit crunch.

Prior to the crunch kids could buy a brand new 600ss or literbike on what was essentially unsecured revolving credit. In doing so they didn't have to insure the bike for collision, which would otherwise make the sportbike cost prohibitive.

Once the crunch hit and they would have to take standard secured loans they usually couldn't afford the $1-2k/year costs for collision insurance. Sportbike sales to younger riders at his shop all but ceased.

[JohninVT`]

A few comments;

Ducati sells more 696 Monsters than all their other bikes combined.  Harley sells more Sportsters than any other model.  This is a good business model for a diversified, ASPIRATIONAL product line.  The demographics of Ducati and Harley owners are varied and the economic power across that spectrum is varied as well.  It makes sense for both those companies to have "entry" level motorcycles that owners can upgrade and then move on to Big Twins or 1198's.  

BMW is at the opposite end of the spectrum despite being a diversified, aspirational brand.  Their best selling model worldwide is a 25 thousand dollar pig called the GS.  BMW owner demographics must therefor be different than Harley or Ducati.  This might lead one to ponder Guzzi owner demographics as well as the legitimate questions of whether the Guzzi lineup is diversified or aspirational.  

Could the infamous sales rep from the rally several years ago have been right?  Are the current Guzzi owners really the problem?  It could be the case.  

Everyone is chest thumping about what Piaggio needs to do.  Scooter and lightweight motorcycle sales retreat by a much, much smaller percentage than any other market segment during an economic downturn.  Worst hit are dirtbike sales(glad I don't work at KTM), then dual sport and large capacity streetbikes followed by scooters and lightweights.  This has been the case ever since records have been kept tracking these statistics and are especially the case in the US over the last 5 years.  Overall motorcycle sales are down 50% over the last 5 years.  Some curse Piaggio as a "scooter company".  I believe that is an ignorant viewpoint.  Yes, they are a scooter company and the Guzzi faithful should be damned glad that they are.  Otherwise Guzzi would already be dead instead of the entire forum being in an uproar over a revised Stelvio, a revised Norge, a V7 Scrambler and a possible new California.  

I really don't care if Greg Field or anyone else claims I'm a Piaggio cheerleader.  I don't believe that I am.  I just think some folks are extremely myopic when it comes to Guzzi and that with the current global economic crisis, we ought to be damned glad Guzzi still exists in ANY form.      

[Kev m]

John, one correction, as popular as the Sportster is (and has been) as far as I know (an I've been paying attention for more than a decade) Harley has NEVER sold more Sportsters than any other model.

In the 90s the most popular chassis was the Softail, that was replaced in the last decade or so by the Touring Chassis.

Sportsters are possibly #2 or #3 after that, it's hard to tell because Harley doesn't make public the breakdown between Vrod, Dyna and Softail (lumping them all in the "custom" category on bike production figures).

But that said, I don't think it detracts from your original point - since the introduction of the rubbermount nearly a decade ago Harley has sold 50-70k sportsters PER YEAR.

[JohninVT`]

John, one correction, as popular as the Sportster is (and has been) as far as I know (an I've been paying attention for more than a decade) Harley has NEVER sold more Sportsters than any other model.

In the 90s the most popular chassis was the Softail, that was replaced in the last decade or so by the Touring Chassis.

Sportsters are possibly #2 or #3 after that, it's hard to tell because Harley doesn't make public the breakdown between Vrod, Dyna and Softail (lumping them all in the "custom" category on bike production figures).

But that said, I don't think it detracts from your original point - since the introduction of the rubbermount nearly a decade ago Harley has sold 50-70k sportsters PER YEAR.

I thought I had seen an annual sales breakdown at one point by HD but it might have been a hallucination on my part.  Point being they sell a ton of Sportsters.  If they didn't, there wouldn't be an Iron, a Nightster, a Custom, etc, etc.  Aren't there 5 or 6 variants of just the Sportster?  Due to the difficulty in the credit markets, I can easily forsee a time in the near future when the the Sportster is the best selling Harley. 

While the diminished resale strength of Big Twins has made the difference between a used Dyna or Softail closer to a new Sportster than it has ever been...it is still harder to obtain financing for used vehicles than new ones.  Folks with medium credit ratings are only going to be able to finance a Sportster.  As an aspirational brand with a varied earnings demographic, this is an important point which will get more important over the next two to three years when unemployment is still hovering around 8-9%. 

All that brings me back to my earlier thought on what direction Piaggio might take with Guzzi.  I don't believe that the Harley model will work but I am not convinced the BMW model would either.  If you look to the market to ascertain the most successful motorcycle brands currently trending upward worldwide, they are BMW, Triumph and Honda.  I think studying why those three are increasing market share and sales while everyone else is losing could be a worthwhile endeavor for Piaggio.         

           

[moltoguzzi]

3] Have you seen the price of a new motorcycle these days?  :o

Back when I was making $2.75 an hour sweeping streets and cleaning loos, a new Yamaha R5 350 was $700 + tax, or about 250 hours work.    

Today, a young man sweating on a construction crew for $9.00 an hour will work about 750 hours to buy the average 600cc sport bike.

Part of the problem is that everyone has to have a 100 HP fully featured motorcycle these days.   We considered the 350 Yamaha a full-sized, full-featured bike at the time that you could ride with pride anywhere anytime, and it would go fast (100 MPH) and get good mileage (50 MPG) and tires cost $9.00 each (4 hours wages) from JC Whitney.   TODAY'S tires cost a guy 18 hours wages, and Mom and Dad are probably paying for that ....

Just part and parcel with all the OTHER increases in "the need" for material things that we've come to expect over the last generation ....

Lannis

Motorcycles have gotten very very huge in the last 30 years, look at the Rocket, 2300cc, approximately 150 lbs-ft and same for HP's, and while most of the torque will be used not many will even come close to using the full HP figures, the bike is not designed for high speed but short bursts somewhere south of the ton, unless you live in the Mid-West and never have to worry about turning. I believe this need for acceleration 0-80 in 5 seconds or less has driven the market and the only explanation why 1000cc sportbikes sell, cause most 600cc sportbikes will hit 150+mph. Most Harleys will out accelerate most Ducatis within 100yrds. but really suffer at 90+mph or more. Also Americans in general and not just Tex-cans associate large with better, just ask McDonald and all my HD friends that will first ask "How big is your engine" when they see my Guzzi, when I say 1100cc they mostly respond with a ohhh and a sigh of relief at knowing my dik isn't that bigger than theirs, just looks that way.. My first motorcycle was a second (heavy) hand Gilera thumper that would eventually get up to 60mph with three on board, the emphasis here is on eventually, sooner when we hit downhills where we just coasted to save on fuel, no, ATGATT either, not even pasta bowl for helmets, just shorts and wife beater T-shirts, of course we didn't have wife's, just pets.

[Kev m]

On the sales figures, I've been looking for a detailed breakdown by model for more than a decade. Harley only publishes the figures you can find on their website and in their annual reports which are by chassis:

Touring
Custom (Vrod/Softail/Dyna)
Sportster

The used to lump Buell all in one category as well, though they did break out Blast figures because they had a category for under 750cc motors.

But again, I get and mostly agree with your point.

One thing though, my dealer contacts have been telling me that, contrary to our expectation that Sportster sales would be strong in these times, people continue to buy Dressers. The Touring models at EDIT - $17-24k give or take keep selling. Either the people buying them aren't as effected by the downturn, and/or they are still able to secure financing.

Though Harley resale hasn't been what is was in the 90s, it's still going pretty strong. Ironically Sportsters always depreciated a little quicker because of the same sorta "small-block stigma" we see around here (that dumb attitude that bigger is necessarily better).

As much as I call that a dumb attitude, I think it is part of what continues to stimulate sales, when someone likes their Sportster but for whatever reason wants a little more and they go back to Harley for a big-twin. This means Sportsters tend to be more available on the used market, which hurts resale a little.

Still, in the 4 Sportsters I've sold, the last one being back in 07, I've never lost more than $1-2k to depreciation (that's 2-4 years after buying new).

[moltoguzzi]

The Touring models at $15-22k

I think some adjustments are necessary to keep your virginity of honesty. $17-24K based on MSRP, $20-25k based on what's on the dealer's floor, and not many RK, mostly heavily dressed tourers. Bad economy? What bad economy!

[Kev m]

The Touring models at $15-22k

I think some adjustments are necessary to keep your virginity of honesty. $17-24K based on MSRP, $20-25k based on what's on the dealer's floor, and not many RK, mostly heavily dressed tourers. Bad economy? What bad economy!

Ooops, I always think $15k (which is silly cause that's what I paid for my 1996 FLHRI new).

Yeah, looks like $17k lowest price.

I wouldn't say $25k, as the base price of the highest model is still shy of $24k, but not by much.

But yeah, right ballpark... and for the record you snipped it but I did say "GIVE OR TAKE"  :BEER:

[gentlemanjim]

You'd think this is a Harley-Davidson forum.  They share nothing, but age and air cooling with Guzzi.  They got there positon because they earned it by building a buying customer base and supported it.

[Lannis]

You'd think this is a Harley-Davidson forum.  They share nothing, but age and air cooling with Guzzi.  They got there positon because they earned it by building a buying customer base and supported it.

Whereas Guzzi has been blowing it by building a RIDING customer base instead.   Some things, there's just no money in .....

Lannis

[Kev m]

You'd think this is a Harley-Davidson forum.  They share nothing, but age and air cooling with Guzzi.

And:

Pushrods
Ease of maintenance
Visceralness of the riding experience
Lack of cutting edge performance (not the fastest or "best" performing bikes by subjective numbers
Rabid devotion of their owners

 ;-T

[kevdog3019]

You'd think this is a Harley-Davidson forum.  They share nothing, but age and air cooling with Guzzi.

And:

Pushrods
Ease of maintenance
Visceralness of the riding experience
Lack of cutting edge performance (not the fastest or "best" performing bikes by subjective numbers
Rabid devotion of their owners

 ;-T

I think I'm the culprit for bringing up Harley in this debate.  I did it to point out that an old air-cooled lump of a motor still sells.  Still sells best I should say!  I have no more desire for a Harley than I do for a Rotax.   A 90 degree air-cooled Duc... sure, 'cept for the maintenance headache.  I have a couple bikes that will go 100mph all day long if I want but have loads of character.  That's as fast as I ever want to go on a bike (and have gone).  Harley does not fit my sporting nature and a UJM does not fit my passion for soul.  Harley and Guzzi have a lot in common (steeped in tradition as they are), 'cept Harley has the business model figured out.  Figure out a business model Piaggio! 
-Kevin   

[Amboman]

I have no more desire for a Harley than I do for a Rotax.    

Whatcha' got against Rotaxes?  :) Some of the best engines ever made!  ;-T

[Pescara]

Whatcha' got against Rotaxes?  :) Some of the best engines ever made!  ;-T

Rotax twins are well engineered to a design philosophy that I'm not interested in:  They last well from new but have lots of fiddly parts and are essentially impossible to overhaul back to new tolerances without buying big chunks of new engine.  The Rotax used for the Aprilias and Can-Am tricycle is a good example, bob weights and balance shafts here and there, and missing bearing inserts.  Another example would be the Rotax four stroke airplane engines have to be sent to the factory for exchange/overhaul, whereas the normal US-built engines are like Guzzis, and easily field serviceable.

The Piaggio engines that replaced them in Aprilias are much the same.  Air cooled Ducati and pre-Piaggio Guzzi engines are not.

You asked...