*California 1400 Merged Threadfest*

[Kev m]

Oh crap...

I just came across spy photos of a water cooled boxer, and this rendering.

http://solomoto.es/sites/default/files/imagenes/articulos/2011-02/bmw-motor-boxer-concept.jpg

That does speak to the why's of keeping an air cooled layout even after water cooling is introduced.

http://solomoto.es/sites/default/files/imagenes/articulos/2011-02/bmw-motor-boxer-agua-foto-espia-bu-01.jpg

[JohninVT`]

True enough Kev.  But does that mean Guzzi could or should attack Harley market share?  I'm not so sure that many of those who buy Harley's care that they are air-cooled so much as they just want a "Harley".  Buying a Harley has become a sign that you've "made it" among many working class folks the same way buying a Cadillac used to mean the same thing for a previous generation.  It goes back to the whole aspirational brand thing we were dicussing earlier.  The fact the engines are air-cooled isn't really a priority in the buying decision.  Is it?  I know it is for you but you probably know a lot more about motorcycles than most people who buy Harley's.    

Right now, buying a Guzzi means you're a socialist luddite judging from this forum ;)

Maybe I have had too much Kool-Aid but I think the new Cali, Scrambler, Stelvio and Norge GT are pretty exciting.  If it turns out the Cali is watercooled, it won't dim my enthusiasm one bit.  

[Greg Field]

Only 3,000 people a year buy a new Guzzi.  If Piaggio decided they were going to sell Guzzi's with inline 4's, how many people would know any different?  Most of the people who really care about Guzzi history don't buy new Guzzi's.  They are still trying to wear out Eldorado's they bought 30 years ago.  The other two million people who buy a bike each year have never heard of Guzzi.  They have no idea what a "Guzzi" is supposed to be.    

Piaggio can introduce anything they like because the potential gains would far outweigh the loss from old-time Guzzi owners.  I'm not suggesting that is what they should do, I am just pointing out that there are maybe 100 active posters on this forum and they probably represent a large portion of the US Guzzi demographic.  That has to change if the brand is going to survive.  You can't build a business around a bunch of negative, old men.        
      

I'm puzzled. When I pointed out all these things pages ago, you seemed to dispute the truth of it. What changed?

[kevdog3019]

Only 3,000 people a year buy a new Guzzi.  If Piaggio decided they were going to sell Guzzi's with inline 4's, how many people would know any different?  Most of the people who really care about Guzzi history don't buy new Guzzi's.  They are still trying to wear out Eldorado's they bought 30 years ago.  The other two million people who buy a bike each year have never heard of Guzzi.  They have no idea what a "Guzzi" is supposed to be.    

Piaggio can introduce anything they like because the potential gains would far outweigh the loss from old-time Guzzi owners.  I'm not suggesting that is what they should do, I am just pointing out that there are maybe 100 active posters on this forum and they probably represent a large portion of the US Guzzi demographic.  That has to change if the brand is going to survive.  You can't build a business around a bunch of negative, old men.        

I think the new Cali looks great and I honestly don't care if it's liquid cooled or not.  I also think the new Norge and Stelvio are also great.  While liquid cooling seems to have a stigma attached by some Guzzi riders, the vast majority of motorcyclists don't care if a bike has a radiator as long as it's fun to ride, doesn't break all the time, they can afford it and there is a decent dealer nearby.      

John,
     I think what you're really just trying to say is expose the marque.  New engine or old engine, simply expose it (for the first time) in front of the public.  I say this takes an incredible amount of money to do, since Piaggio also needs to get their house in order to get their business model right.  I think we can all agree that exposing a company with no dealers, parts supply, etc. is exposing all the wrong things and will fail no doubt.  So... instead of working on a whole new engine ($$$), lets have them expose what they have since people don't seem to be running from this lump, but rather the sum of the parts.   One thing at a time.  An engine won't fix the rest of the issues I guarantee.  Do you guys really think an engine will solve their business model?  
-Kevin

[twhitaker]

Kev:

Guzzi raced longitudinal-V twins. I'm pretty sure they won the Isle of Man TT with one. They are as much a part of Guzzi's heritage as the V8 is. Look how small a part of Guzzi's years in business that was—built five or six, only used on-track for 2 years, no championships—yet how big a part of Guzzi's heritage it is.

1933-1951  500cc GP bike, the Bicilindrica was a top competitor for 18 years!






from here:  http://www.classic-motorbikes.com/stock.asp?Ref=FC70&Lang=it

I clicked on the link and.....COOL!!! Someone made this replica. That's right. The bike in the above picture is a replica and could be (already) bought. Any idea what one would cost?




The 500 Moto Guzzi Bicilindrica Racer we are proud to offer for sale today is an exact replica of the 1935 model. It was built in Italy in 1995. It has not been driven ever since, so it is brand new. It is available in Northern Italy. This Moto Guzzi is an exceptional opportunity to enter classic motoring events riding a legend.

[Lannis]

I clicked on the link and.....COOL!!! Someone made this replica. That's right. The bike in the above picture is a replica and could be (already) bought. Any idea what one would cost?




The 500 Moto Guzzi Bicilindrica Racer we are proud to offer for sale today is an exact replica of the 1935 model. It was built in Italy in 1995. It has not been driven ever since, so it is brand new. It is available in Northern Italy. This Moto Guzzi is an exceptional opportunity to enter classic motoring events riding a legend.

The "Kay Replica" Gilera fours were in the $80,000 range ... looks to me like most hand-built replicas fall into that general area.   When you look at what that gets the builder as an hourly rate, they're a bargain at that.

It'll sell, I'll bet.   Look at the guys buying hot rods at the Barrett-Jackson auctions ... successful contractors, business owners, stockbrokers, it's no huge deal for them to drop $125,000 on a hot rodded Vette or something, one of them will want a one-off like this!

Lannis

[twhitaker]

You're right. I wonder if Jay Leno would pop for one?

[blackcat]

Well, that's heritage, but they'd have to differentiate it from Ducati.

Why? The MG engine predates the Ducati twin and it is 120 degree's as opposed to the 90 degree Ducati.

Predates means nothing when in the half century later ducati claimed it for their own in the world market.

Madison Ave. and of course a decent engine can have an impact on that short history. Victory and an enthusiastic metric cruiser crowd seems to be doing OK against HD's.

[JohninVT`]

Only 3,000 people a year buy a new Guzzi.  If Piaggio decided they were going to sell Guzzi's with inline 4's, how many people would know any different?  Most of the people who really care about Guzzi history don't buy new Guzzi's.  They are still trying to wear out Eldorado's they bought 30 years ago.  The other two million people who buy a bike each year have never heard of Guzzi.  They have no idea what a "Guzzi" is supposed to be.    

Piaggio can introduce anything they like because the potential gains would far outweigh the loss from old-time Guzzi owners.  I'm not suggesting that is what they should do, I am just pointing out that there are maybe 100 active posters on this forum and they probably represent a large portion of the US Guzzi demographic.  That has to change if the brand is going to survive.  You can't build a business around a bunch of negative, old men.        
      

I'm puzzled. When I pointed out all these things pages ago, you seemed to dispute the truth of it. What changed?

I agreed with you on this being an opportunity to introduce a new engine architecture.  In fact, I think what I wrote was that I "whole-heartedly agree with you".  I just disagreed regarding Piaggio's approach to building the business.  I also disagree with those who think the dealer network is the biggest problem.   I think the product is the most important part of the puzzle.  Either make it desirable or make another product that is.  A dealer can't create desire....that has to come from the product itself.  I can only speak for myself but I really don't care if the new Cali is water cooled or not.  I want one.   

[Kev m]

Victory might sell as few bikes a year as Guzzi...

[LowRyter]

http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/news/bmws-liquidcooled-boxer-spotted-wild/

Wet Beemers Boxers too.

[blackcat]

Victory might sell as few bikes a year as Guzzi...

Really?

On-road vehicle sales, consisting primarily of Victory Motorcycles, generated $81.6 million in sales for Polaris in 2010, an increase from $52.8 million reported in 2009. The 2010 fiscal year marked the first year-on-year sales increase for Victory since 2007 and the largest percentage increase since a 70% rise reported in 2003.


2011 Victory Cross Country

Though North American heavyweight cruiser and touring demand is low, Polaris says consumer demand for the Victory Cross Country remains high.

In the face of flagging North American motorcycle sales, Victory increased both sales and market share in 2010. Though industry-wide demand for heavyweight cruiser and touring motorcycles was low, Polaris reports strong demand for its Cross Country and Cross Roads models.

The fourth quarter represented the fifth consecutive quarter of year-on-year sales and market share gains. Victory sales totaled $20.6 million in the quarter ended Dec. 31, 2010, an increase of 8% from the same quarter of 2009. Unit sales increased 15% in the fourth quarter with North American dealers reporting a 30% decline in Victory Motorcycles inventory.
Victory High-Ball

Polaris is hoping to attract younger riders looking for a factory custom look with the new Victory High-Ball.

[Kev m]

Wonder what "primarily" actually means in context because $81.6M suggests 40-50k units. EDIT - Thanks Bob - I put an extra zero in my calculations - so edit - sounds like I was absolutely correct, Victory MIGHT sell 4-5k bikes/year.

That puts them solidly in Guzzi territory, and no where near even other small manufacturers like Ducati.

[Kev m]

I have a friend,  who was for more than a decade and until quite recently the GM of the all brands side of a large dealership. He'd receive monthly reports from Triumph regarding new motorcycle sales based on registrations in his "territory" as defined by Triumph.

A snapshot from last fall.

I thought I'd share some intel with you folks.

I receive, on a monthly basis, a report that indicates how well we're doing with Triumph. It speaks to us as a dealer, and our PMA (Primary Market Area), which is a rather large geographical area. It also speaks to all registrations in that PMA, regardless of brand.

We frankly sell outside of our PMA, but within that PMA, this report regarding September, 2010, shows the following (year to date):

In our PMA, 881 motorcycles were sold (on-road).

Of those, 465 were Harleys.

116 were Yamaha.

112 were Kawasaki.

101 were Honda.

37 were Suzuki.

17 were Triumph.

12 were Can-Am.

9 were BMW.

8 were Victory.

2 were Ducati.

KTM and Piaggio sold one unit each.

[moltoguzzi]

Anybody think fuel economy might be a important sales point? - how much money do you want to spend filling up your tank, each day?

$100.  200.   ???

On large street motorcycles?  In the USA?  No!

Most people don't put more than a few thousand miles on in a year, riding mostly on sunny Saturdays and Sundays.

It's not even on the radar of most motorcycle "owners" that I know.  Hell!  They drive 15mpg SUVs to work everyday!

I care about it mainly because better fuel economy = fewer friggin' fuel stops on a journey.  But, that's mainly because the dang fuel tanks are so small (< 5 gallons) on most bikes...

Knock it off with this small tanks obsession, if you keep it up I will need therapy. Buy a 2011 Stelvio or GSA and be forever happy.

[Skeeve]

They should just put this prototype from 1950 into production:

Yeah, sure, if they wanted a new bike w/ a wheelbase even longer than the Griso's...  ::)

Didn't this thread just go thru a couple pages of bickering about how Guzzi needs to build something w/ a shorter wheelbase & more wt over the front wheel but w/o screwing the rider ergos? ;)

In other news, someone was quibbling w/ Greg Field over what Guzzi's "heritage" was, and confused the long-lifespan of the Carcano V2 with the company heritage, so maybe it's time to set the matter straight:

Guzzi's heritage is of innovation, esp. wrt engine design. They innovatively went with a longitudinal V-twin at a time when only one other company had done so w/ limited success [Indian's model 841 built for wartime U.S. military contract, canceled due to Willy's success w/ the Jeep (but arguably superior to Harley's XA100 knockoff of the Nazi BMW flat twin built at the same time for the same requirements)] that met with gratifying success, but not before trying virtually every other format: singles, transverse V2s, I3s, I4s, V8s. Don't think they've ever tried a 6cyl, which has some supposed merits [per Ricardo, 1921], but the essence of motorcycling is a combination of superior power/wt ratio with simplicity: for this reason, I think singles, twins & triples are more inherently suited to biking than machines of greater output [from a higher cylinder count] that comes from greater complexity [from a higher cylinder count. Except for the Suzuki RE5 & Norton rotaries, or Leno's jetbike: they're just complex... ;D]

So, if Piaggio wants to rejuvenate Guzzi's image to lure a younger demographic [not necessarily a youth demographic, just younger than us old diehards!  :D], they've got to make something that is not a variation on the Carcano [big block] or Tonti [small block] shaft-driven longitudinal v-twin.

Given that Piaggio won't want to spend any more than they absolutely have to in order to accomplish this, it behooves them to base a new Guzzi design upon an existing powerplant, that will not necessarily cannibalize sales of any of their existing product line. Ergo, a mid-displacement single cyl. motorcycle derived from the motor from one of their maxi-scooters [1] can easily be shoehorned into a Tonti frame [2], given modern wheel sizes, an enclosed chain or belt drive [3], (possibly a CVT?),  homologated & brought to market in under a year[4].

$50k development money and a couple of months of design & testing, and Piaggio could have a whole new bike for their oldest marque. Easy-peasy... But nobody is going to listen.

Hey, don't think any of this is new for me: 10 years ago I proposed a similar Q&D solution to a problem here at work, would have cost us $10k tops to move a service desk to a better area & saved us more than that the 1st year alone & every year since, & they spent the next 8 years saying "No, no: do a proposal for a complete remodel of the area you want to move that service point to, blah blah blah" sending it back over & over again, stalling us... until the budget got slashed and they went with the original proposal, having lost the opportunity to pay for the "grand remodel" with all the money they could have saved in the intervening years! Frickin' bureaucrats... :(

I predict Piaggio won't perform any different!  ;-T

[1] Interesting that a "maxi" scooter motor is only a "mid-displacement" bike motor, innit? ;)
[2] Hey, why mess w/ tradition? It is almost as famous as the Featherbed chassis & besides, it's still a good design & all the jigs & fixturing are there to use w/ minor adaptation from the s-b lineup. Some thinner-wall tubing to add lightness & "hey Presto!" you're done...
[3] Guzzi's touring tradition here...
[4] Largely due to using an engine that has already passed all the bureaucratic hurdles.

[Amboman]

Given that Piaggio won't want to spend any more than they absolutely have to in order to accomplish this, it behooves them to base a new Guzzi design upon an existing powerplant, that will not necessarily cannibalize sales of any of their existing product line. Ergo, a mid-displacement single cyl. motorcycle derived from the motor from one of their maxi-scooters [1] can easily be shoehorned into a Tonti frame [2], given modern wheel sizes, an enclosed chain or belt drive [3], (possibly a CVT?),  homologated & brought to market in under a year[4].

$50k development money and a couple of months of design & testing, and Piaggio could have a whole new bike for their oldest marque. Easy-peasy... But nobody is going to listen.

We discussed that not too long ago:
http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=39576

[AJ Huff]

i think the V7C would make perfect platform for a new single, a new Falcone. A comuter bike between the maxi scooter and small twin. It would be it's own niche.

[AJ Huff]

Well I know V7 means twin. :) it's also a Tonti frame. I think the Falcone was a Tonti frame also. So, stick a single in the V7C frame and call it a Falcone.

[rocker59]

Anybody think fuel economy might be a important sales point? - how much money do you want to spend filling up your tank, each day?

$100.  200.   ???

On large street motorcycles?  In the USA?  No!

Most people don't put more than a few thousand miles on in a year, riding mostly on sunny Saturdays and Sundays.

It's not even on the radar of most motorcycle "owners" that I know.  Hell!  They drive 15mpg SUVs to work everyday!

I care about it mainly because better fuel economy = fewer friggin' fuel stops on a journey.  But, that's mainly because the dang fuel tanks are so small (< 5 gallons) on most bikes...

Knock it off with this small tanks obsession, if you keep it up I will need therapy. Buy a 2011 Stelvio or GSA and be forever happy.

Oh, I'm so wanting a 2012 (US) Stelvio with the 32L tank!  Just to piss people off, I think I need the Stucci AUX tank, too!  11-gallons on board?  Hell, yeah!   ;D

[rocker59]

Well I know V7 means twin. :) it's also a Tonti frame. I think the Falcone was a Tonti frame also. So, stick a single in the V7C frame and call it a Falcone.

Good idea! 

(FWIW, the Nuovo Falcone used the Tonti)

[rocker59]

Piaggio can introduce anything they like because the potential gains would far outweigh the loss from old-time Guzzi owners.  I'm not suggesting that is what they should do, I am just pointing out that there are maybe 100 active posters on this forum and they probably represent a large portion of the US Guzzi demographic.  That has to change if the brand is going to survive.  You can't build a business around a bunch of negative, old men.        
 

This is a good point.  I'd imagine mid-50s with two Guzzis in the garage is a good average.

40-60 being the other sides of the bell curve.  Some owners with 3+ bikes in the garage.

This is something PGA is up against here in the USA.  Most of the buyers are current customers.  They need to find a way to keep reselling to the same few thousand people each year.

I'm about to turn 44 and currently have 3 in the garage.  If things work out over the next year, or so, a Stelvio v1.2 will be in the garage as well...

[Karl Von]

Anyone seen these

http://www.cycleworld.com/motorcycle_news/future_bikes_spy_shots/11q1/moto_guzzi_-_future_bikes_spy_shots?zeta_mid=HFM2_295579&zeta_rid=35338016

[Kev m]

No never heard of em...


























 :D

[Sack]

No never heard of em...


Right!  ;-T


























 :D

[bad Chad]

Wow, what's that! :BEER:

[Aaron D.]

New HO scale Guzzis.

[egschade]

Was just reading about these on the M-G website:

http://www.motoguzzi-us.com/en_US/news/moto_guzzi_two_formidable_prototypes.aspx

The Scrambler is kinda cool. Wonder if they'll ever be built or come stateside?

[Kev m]

For those still catching up with last month...  :-*  ;) :D  :BEER:

http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=43132.0

http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=43242.0

http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=43239.0

http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=43255.0

http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=43094.0

http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=43242.0

[Popeye]

I like both of those designs. The scrambler in particular.