*California 1400 Merged Threadfest*

[cruzziguzzi]

Seems like in one of the Guzzi books I have about, Dr John Wittner (sp?) pretty clearly laid out how he and the factory could find no significant and reliable dimension increase with the current architecture. Throw of the crank journal, stud spacing, block rigidity and the like.

[Vasco DG]

Look at the pictures of the 1400 Cali and you an plainly see it is a version of the 8V motor. The 8v has been designed to be bored larger. look at the spigots on the barrels, the walls are a good centimetre + thick.

Despite outward appearances the 8V motor is COMPLETLY DIFFERENT to the old 2-valve pushrod motor.The stud spacing is different and because the idler shaft for the camchain drive doesn't carry cam lobes there are no clearance issues with the big ends of the rods biffing the lobes. Whether that means there is room for further stroke increases I don't know but boriing for capacity is easy.

While it is only my guess I'm suspecting that the reason for the very high domes on the rocker covers is because there wille a second plug in each combustion chamber to combat low speed surging events. They are most likely purely cosmetic. If there is one thing that concerns me about increasing the motor's size it is the possibility of the brather system being unable to cope. Only time will tell whether they have increased it's ability toseparate oil from gas.

also I very much doubt it'll be water-cooled. As I said the pics look like a standard 8V, oil cooled with air assist, motor. The large radiator at the front will simply be a fan-forced oil cooler as is fitted to the Norge 8V.

VDG

[guzzisteve]

I have thought it may be a MPC  BB1 motor in it.

[Lannis]

Ok, but the BMW cruiser was not a failur because the motor was pushed to too many cc, which is what Lanis is saying, right?

My suspicion is that the rest of the bike (motor internals, drive train) isn't handling two huge thumping cylinders making 50 HP each very well.   

I don't insist that it's true, but those who can't remember history are doomed to repeat it .... !

Lannis

[JohninVT`]

Ok, but the BMW cruiser was not a failur because the motor was pushed to too many cc, which is what Lanis is saying, right?

My suspicion is that the rest of the bike (motor internals, drive train) isn't handling two huge thumping cylinders making 50 HP each very well.   

I don't insist that it's true, but those who can't remember history are doomed to repeat it .... !

Lannis

If the 1400 is what Pete says, they'll likely detune it from the current 1200 spec seen in the Stelvio, Norge and Griso while increasing the bore.  More torque at lower rpm, less outright hp= a beautiful cruiser engine.  It's just a WAG, but if it put out 80hp and 85-ishft/lbs at the rear wheel without having to thrash the tits off it, it would be competitive.  The 8 valve seems fairly bulletproof.  The engine architecture is sound.   

[Offcamber1]

Ok, but the BMW cruiser was not a failur because the motor was pushed to too many cc, which is what Lanis is saying, right?

No, there was a completely non-mechanical reason for it's demise. ;) ;)

[Kev m]

If the 1400 is what Pete says, they'll likely detune it from the current 1200 spec seen in the Stelvio, Norge and Griso while increasing the bore.  More torque at lower rpm, less outright hp= a beautiful cruiser engine.  It's just a WAG, but if it put out 80hp and 85-ishft/lbs at the rear wheel without having to thrash the tits off it, it would be competitive.  The 8 valve seems fairly bulletproof.  The engine architecture is sound.   

I think I know what you mean by "competitive" here, and if so I agree (with the meaning that it would make a wonderful bike that performs as well or better than much of the competition).

However, when it comes down to sales, I don't know how many more customers it would bring in. The majority of that particular market seems focused on image more than fact and the PERCEPTION will likely be that 1400 renains a bit "small" in a sea of 1600-1800cc bikes.

I though the R1200C was a great bike in a lot of ways, but I do understand BMWs decision not to move forward with it not based on actual competitive performance, but based on that same perception.

[Tom]

Bigger is not always better. :P

[Jake]

Continues to befuddle me how 1000cc's ain't enough on highways with speed limits of 75 mph.  (and I'm refering to 500cc's per jug, too.)

[Tom]

Exactly.

[Lannis]

Continues to befuddle me how 1000cc's ain't enough on highways with speed limits of 75 mph.  (and I'm refering to 500cc's per jug, too.)

It has nothing to do with how fast it will go, how well it will pull a load, or any of that.

It's "How BIG are you?  Size MATTERS, honey!"

Lannis

[Kev m]

Continues to befuddle me how 1000cc's ain't enough on highways with speed limits of 75 mph.  (and I'm refering to 500cc's per jug, too.)

Oh, I agree - and it's one of the reasons I've been dragging my feet thinking about replacing the Jackal - I just don't WANT a bike with a motor that is bigger than my car (currently a 1.6L).

[JJ]

Getting a little impatient waiting for any news on the Cal 1400. Even governments can't keep a secret this long. Has anyone heard any rumblings as to if or when this this bike might appear? Possibly some of our European members might have some info, by virtue of being closer to the source.

Spy-photos HERE:  http://www.cycleworld.com/motorcycle_news/future_bikes_spy_shots/11q1/moto_guzzi_-_future_bikes_spy_shots

[Vasco DG]

AFAIK only the couple 'Leaked' last year from the Milan, (?) show. Ugly great brute of a thing in my book but I'm not in the target demographic.

VDG

[LowRyter]

Getting a little impatient waiting for any news on the Cal 1400. Even governments can't keep a secret this long. Has anyone heard any rumblings as to if or when this this bike might appear? Possibly some of our European members might have some info, by virtue of being closer to the source.

Spy-photos HERE:  http://www.cycleworld.com/motorcycle_news/future_bikes_spy_shots/11q1/moto_guzzi_-_future_bikes_spy_shots

the bike in cycleworld article appears to have a big radiator right in the middle of the "v".  Which doesn't match the words about the engine being based on the existing 8 v motor.

[Kev m]

I thought this thread was about NEW info - not spy shots that are what now 6 months old?  :BEER:

the bike in cycleworld article appears to have a big radiator right in the middle of the "v".  Which doesn't match the words about the engine being based on the existing 8 v motor.

As discussed at length in previous threads about this bike SOME feel strongly that said "ratidor" is NOT a RADIATOR but an OIL COOLER.

I'm hoping that is the case, but time will tell.

[JohninVT`]

I weigh 180lbs.  My wife weighs....well I'm not gonna say because she might stab me.  With me, my wife and camping gear for a long weekend on a bike we weigh close to 400lbs.  Most cruisers weigh 650+ so the laden weight is 1050-1100lbs.  I do not parade at 10mph under the speed limit everywhere and I don't ride roads that are flat, straight and boring.  There is no such thing as too much power.  I get annoyed when old men on this forum whine about high horsepower machines and suggest those of us who enjoy them have a screw loose. 

If you're satisfied riding a motorcycle with your wife and having the power to weight ratio of a stock Miata, that's great.  Some of us are not.  Curving, mountain roads have short sight lines and to execute safe passing manuevers you need high horsepower and torque.

You know what?  Bigger IS better sometimes.  When it comes to making a pass on the Kancamangus while riding two up, you bet your ass I want 80 or 90ft/lbs.  I don't want to down shift three times, I don't want to have to yank on the brakes halfway through the pass to pull back in because I can't get past the Winnebago safely. 

There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with owning and enjoying a fast motorcycle.         

[cleatusj]

"There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with owning and enjoying a fast motorcycle. "

Except no one said it had to be a Guzzi.

[Kev m]

"There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with owning and enjoying a fast motorcycle. "

Except no one said it had to be a Guzzi.

HELL no-ONE said that there WAS anything wrong either.

But on the flip side, a bike doesn't have to have a frickin' 1.6-1.8L motor to be able to get out of its own way either.

Then again, don't talk to me, I was perfectly happy rolling across this country from coast-to-coast, 2-up, on a 1340cc motor....

and I don't tour 2-up anymore, so you can subtract about 100 lbs from what my tour bike has to carry (at least in people).

[Lannis]

"There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with owning and enjoying a fast motorcycle. "

Except no one said it had to be a Guzzi.

HELL no-ONE said that there WAS anything wrong either.

But on the flip side, a bike doesn't have to have a frickin' 1.6-1.8L motor to be able to get out of its own way either.....

Nope, nope, Kev, that marks you as one of the old farts who wants to ride slow and whine about high-horsepower machines.

I'm convinced now; aren't you?  ;) .   There's nothing really made today beside maybe a Boss Hoss with a turbo Corvette engine,  or maybe a dual engined Hayabusa that's really got ENOUGH horsepower, and those are doubtful.

I NEED a motorcycle that has 600+ horsepower, has to be able to burn an 8" rear tire from 100 to 150 MPH without changing gear, uphill with a quarter-ton payload.   If I can't pass the longest truck in America on the steepest road in America on the shortest passing-zone in America with two big people and a load of gear aboard, then I'm just riding a fairy-bike and need more horsepower.   Weight and gas mileage are NOT issues - being able to accelerate at 1.4 G is the criteria.   Any of you pansies can't handle that, don't come whining to me about it .....   

Lannis (I think it was the word "whine" that did it)

[Vasco DG]

the bike in cycleworld article appears to have a big radiator right in the middle of the "v".  Which doesn't match the words about the engine being based on the existing 8 v motor.

So does the Norge 8V. It's a big, fan assisted, thermostat controlled oil cooler.

Look, I may be quite wrong. It may be an entirely NEW motor. But just consider a few things.

Piaggio have spent a LOT of money developing the 8V oil/air cooled motor and are continuing to make refinements to it and use it in a variety of platforms. Developing a new motor from scratch, (And that is effectively what the 8V motor is.) is NOT cheap and would of been looked at as a mid to long term project, especially for a small brand like Guzzi which has a notoriously conservative and fickle customer base and THEY are who the new Cali is squarely aimed at. Most riders who aren't rusted on to the Guzzi brand and engine architechture aren't going to look at something like a Cali when they can get a Shadow or an HD cheaper.

The world is currently stuck in the financial doldrums. The US ecconomy is entirely stagnant and the European Union is on the brink of financial armageddon. Now is NOT the time to think about gearing up for the production of a brand new machine at a cost of millions of $$/Euros, especially one that willonly appeal to a small market segment. A frame and running gear can be developed reasonably easily and cheaply using available bought in parts like wheels, brakes and suspension. Using the same motive package, albeit without the benefits of the CARC, makes a 'New' model a much more likely and potentially profitable proposition although even the release of something like this would, IMHO, at the moment be risky.

Yes I know everybody loves 'New'! The thing is at the moment the world simply can't afford 'New' every year. This is the hangover from the credit bingefest of the 1990-s to early 2000's and I'm afraid we'd better get used to it.

I stand by my earlier observations.

VDG

[Terry Reedy]

I thought this thread was about NEW info - not spy shots that are what now 6 months old?  :BEER:

the bike in cycleworld article appears to have a big radiator right in the middle of the "v".  Which doesn't match the words about the engine being based on the existing 8 v motor.

As discussed at length in previous threads about this bike SOME feel strongly that said "ratidor" is NOT a RADIATOR but an OIL COOLER.

I'm hoping that is the case, but time will tell.

could I get mine with water cooling and hydraulic lifters please???/ hell we've  been doing that for 70+ years

[JohninVT`]

Lannis, you act so old I'm tempted to ask if rainbows were in black and white when you were a kid.  There is nothing wrong with fast motorcycles or cars.  Folks who enjoy them are, for the most part, normal.  I like Hayabusa's but prefer the ZX-14 and I know what a terrific sport touring bike one would make.  I'd ride a Boss Hoss with a Corvette engine just to see what it was like.  I also have a weak spot for BSA A10's, Douglas Dragonfly's and Ariel Square Fours so it's not like I measure the worth of every bike by its' power output alone.

One of the most important spec's in a cruiser(for me) is the 50-80mph roll on performance.  If Guzzi is going to put one out and not make excuses for it...then it should have more than 80ft/lbs at the rear wheel.  The touring Harley's all do and their fuel injection is light years better than Guzzi's.  I just rode a friend's brand new Streetglide the other day and it takes the throttle better than any other FI bike I can remember riding.  It's perfect.  My 1200 Sport was a stumbling, surging pig by comparison even after all the work I did to it.  It seems like some people want to keep patting themselves on the back for riding an antiquated, slow, Italian anachronism with piss poor resale value.  I'd prefer riding a Guzzi with some actual nuts. 

A CARC cruiser with a bored out 8 valve is bad how?  Just because it might displace 1400cc's?  That is one of the dumbest things I've seen posted on this forum.  Hand wringing and forehead slapping amongst the Guzzisti!  Poor bastards! 

Feel free to go back to spirited discussions about the joys of the Metzeler 880, steelcut oats and how you used to sit next to Jesus in grade school.  Thank you....please drive through.             

[HDGoose]

Slightly used and I barely broken in Harley ElectraGlides are cheap now. And parts are plentiful and dealers abound.

[Chicago Mark]

Wow, so far no one but Vacso has put forth any real insight as to the bike and the tone of many other posts are very negative. Sheese guys, how about waiting till you have actual facts before throwing sand on the project. I for one, am very hopeful it's what I think it could be. We'll have to wait and see till they actually show something  though. With 'fans' of the marque like some of you, theres no need for detractors.

Tough crowd some of you,

Mark

[Lannis]

 I for one, am very hopeful it's what I think it could be. We'll have to wait and see till they actually show something  though. With 'fans' of the marque like some of you, theres no need for detractors.

Tough crowd some of you,

Mark

I'm a huge fan of the marque, obviously, or I wouldn't be buying new Guzzis and have bits of old ones all around my shop.

I just don't want them to screw it up.   I think (for the economic reasons Pete mentions) that they may be headed that way.

New is not always better.

Lannis

[Lannis]

Lannis, you act so old I'm tempted to ask if rainbows were in black and white when you were a kid.  There is nothing wrong with fast motorcycles or cars.  Folks who enjoy them are, for the most part, normal.  I like Hayabusa's but prefer the ZX-14 and I know what a terrific sport touring bike one would make.  I'd ride a Boss Hoss with a Corvette engine just to see what it was like.  I also have a weak spot for BSA A10's, Douglas Dragonfly's and Ariel Square Fours so it's not like I measure the worth of every bike by its' power output alone.

One of the most important spec's in a cruiser(for me) is the 50-80mph roll on performance.  If Guzzi is going to put one out and not make excuses for it...then it should have more than 80ft/lbs at the rear wheel.  The touring Harley's all do and their fuel injection is light years better than Guzzi's.  I just rode a friend's brand new Streetglide the other day and it takes the throttle better than any other FI bike I can remember riding.  It's perfect.  My 1200 Sport was a stumbling, surging pig by comparison even after all the work I did to it.  It seems like some people want to keep patting themselves on the back for riding an antiquated, slow, Italian anachronism with piss poor resale value.  I'd prefer riding a Guzzi with some actual nuts. 

A CARC cruiser with a bored out 8 valve is bad how?  Just because it might displace 1400cc's?  That is one of the dumbest things I've seen posted on this forum.  Hand wringing and forehead slapping amongst the Guzzisti!  Poor bastards! 

Feel free to go back to spirited discussions about the joys of the Metzeler 880, steelcut oats and how you used to sit next to Jesus in grade school.  Thank you....please drive through.             

I know.  I feel really bad now.  You're like that World's Most Interesting Man in the beer commercial - a wild, crazy, popular guy with a long, honorable juvenile rap sheet who loves fast cars and motorcycles, good liquor, strong drugs, and blazing hot women.

I've always wanted to be like that; living life to the fullest, living right on the edge, seeing every experience through a focused blend of testosterone and adrenalin, and feeling sorry for the poor, slogging slugs like me that just don't know how to get the most out of life with their pitiful little 750cc motorcycles and boring, sad experiences.

Well, there's always hope, I guess.   Maybe some day I'll have a Walter Mitty moment, break Western, and for one shining, glowing moment experience life the way you do.   That way, it will all be worth while ..... I will have been ALMOST LIKE Vermont John ..... :D :D

[Orange Guzzi]

Moto Guzzi could build a bike that is not an air cooled, 90 degree transverse v-twin.   Not all motorcycle  manufactures use the same engine configuration on all their models.   Although I did buy a Guzzi for the air cooled 90 degree transverse v-twin.   I do like the older bikes with their simple engine design.   When people mention BMW or H D engines, most people think of the 180 degree or 45 degree engines.  Both these companies build other types of engines for their bikes.  My 1064 cc engine is more than enough for what I like to do on a bike.

[Jake]

goodness.  so much for my befuddlement. 

[Atlanta Guzzi]

Look at the pictures of the 1400 Cali and you an plainly see it is a version of the 8V motor. The 8v has been designed to be bored larger. look at the spigots on the barrels, the walls are a good centimetre + thick.

Despite outward appearances the 8V motor is COMPLETLY DIFFERENT to the old 2-valve pushrod motor.The stud spacing is different and because the idler shaft for the camchain drive doesn't carry cam lobes there are no clearance issues with the big ends of the rods biffing the lobes. Whether that means there is room for further stroke increases I don't know but boriing for capacity is easy.

While it is only my guess I'm suspecting that the reason for the very high domes on the rocker covers is because there wille a second plug in each combustion chamber to combat low speed surging events. They are most likely purely cosmetic. If there is one thing that concerns me about increasing the motor's size it is the possibility of the brather system being unable to cope. Only time will tell whether they have increased it's ability toseparate oil from gas.

also I very much doubt it'll be water-cooled. As I said the pics look like a standard 8V, oil cooled with air assist, motor. The large radiator at the front will simply be a fan-forced oil cooler as is fitted to the Norge 8V.

VDG

Thanks for the insight!  I like the 8V motor so I'm guessing we might have another winner waiting in the wings.