*California 1400 Merged Threadfest*

[prof_stack]

The floorboards are WAY too far forward for me to have any interest in it.

[bpreynolds]

Hmm...

[bad Chad]

Ok, I'm gonna try to respond point for point ala Kev M style.

Kev M "It's not aimed at the RK if it's equipped like a Black Eagle"      I can't argue with that, but I can conceive of no reason why they would go so far as to design an entire new motorcycle in such a iconic style as the RK and then not equip it similarly.

Mark West  "I would say that is a pretty small market and those people are also ones that I think will expect a more extensive and higher quality dealer network than Guzzi currently has."    I agree, the existing dealer network is small enough to definitely turn off a percentage of potential buyers.   To what extent that is can't be known at this time.

RayB  "If I was going to spend that many dineros on a RK wannabe, I'd spend it on the real thing instead of a subsitute.
Not for me thank you"     Most RK buyers will remain RK buyers.  As I said, I see the typical crossover buyer as a guy who has owned at least a couple RK already and is looking for something a bit different, but not too different.   A bike that has a similar panache and class as HD and appeal to his friends who all so understand the HD Guzzi similaritiey.   The number of these buyers is certainly not huge, perhaps only in the hundreds, but possibly under ideal circumstances a 4 digit number.  These guys would not consider a 1100cc California Vintage, close buy not close enough.

rocker59  "Piaggio cannot just say Guzzi is a premium brand, demanding premium prices, and have people knocking down the doors to pay MSRP.  The past seven or eight years has shown that Guzzi management has repeatedly overpriced the bikes in the USA market by 25% - 30%.  Year-end blowout sales prove that.

Piaggio also cannot just decide how many bikes they will sell and produce them.  The market sets demand.  Piaggio painfully discovered that after the 2006/2007 production ramp-up."        Guzzi has been a premium brand in the USA since at least the introduction of the v700, if not earlier.  Piaggio is now in the process of reinforcing it's market postion by producing better quality and more desirable motorcycles.  I did not say they would be demanding and getting MSRP.  Moto Guzzi are much less expspensive to purchase in the US then many other countries where they sell in greater numbers, IE France, Germany.   Supply out paced demand for years in the US, accounting or the 'year end blow out sales' you mention.   However, that has by enlarge ended.   The buyer can no longer walk into every or even most Guzzi dealers and pick up end of year deals on the model in his preferred color and equipment level.  Yes, there are still left overs, but they are available in no where  near the numbers seen in years past.  If you don't believe me, check with a few of the quality dealers here on this board.

"The first thing HD riders ask me about my Guzzis is, "where's the nearest dealer".  When my answer is in the hundreds of miles, their faces always go blank.  You see, the dealership experience is a huge part of the Harley experience.  People want to stop at HD dealers to see and to be seen.  Piaggio will never have that in the USA.  They just won't.

I know it would only take a few hundred converts per year to be a big deal, but honestly, I just don't see Guzzi pulling  many repeat HD customers away from their brand.  It's just not going to happen in any significant numbers."    I agree with you on the Harley experience, that's a big deal to many, and not at all likely to be duplicated by Guzzi.   However, I do think the market is large enough, that done right, with the right product, Guzzi could easily peel off a 'few hundred converts' per year.   They did it in the early 70s, it can be done again.

"I don't doubt that Piaggio will price the poor Cal 14 at $18k in the USA.  If/when they do that, it will be a repeat performance of the Cal Vin, the Breva Sport, and every other Guzzi in the USA over the past few years.  ie:  great deals at the end of the year."      As far as I'm aware, the Norge 8v, Stelvio, v7 Classic, Griso 8v SE, and perhaps to a lesser extent Griso 8v have all sold at prices that buy and large cold not be classified as "end of year blow outs"

[Chicago Mark]

The earlier picture of the white Cali 14 looked much nicer to me than this one with the black/white seat. I'm absolutely a candidate for this bike which is why I'm so anxious to see the reports of the upcoming European shows. But at $18k, no thank you. IMHO it just doesn't make sense when for similar money you can get the Harley (the real thing) or a Victory (the 'other' real thing). Even at $18k, the new Cali would have to have cruise control, abs, heated seat and grips, power and connection outlets for an iPod, GPS, quick detach trunk, windshield options etc. I just don't see Piaggio/Moto Guzzi doing that. Mostly because I don't think they understand or care about the US market enough.

I've never owned a Harley but I do like them. They have done an excellent job at making better and better motorcycles while also vastly improving their dealer network. What other bike brand can even approach the weekly and monthly parking lot get togethers like Harley? That is a big part of the whole Harley ownership experience I guess. It's not my personal taste but they sure seem to like it and more importantly, it works well. Most other brand dealers barely have a water fountain and/or a vending machine. Not much to build camaraderie around I'm afraid. Several of my local Harley dealers are already sold out of most of the 2012 models. Harley has also cut back considerably on production which will keep their prices up.

But like I said, I'm anxious to see and sit on this new Guzzi. Once done, I'll know what I'll do. Maybe a leftover 2012 Cali 14 will be a bargain around the 2015 model year.

All the best,

Mark
  

[JJ]

QUOTE: You see, the dealership experience is a huge part of the Harley experience.  People want to stop at HD dealers to see and to be seen.  Piaggio will never have that in the USA.  They just won't.

I won't argue that....However, in many cases, and especially with the purchase of a "new" motorcycle, riders just want to be able to get their bikes serviced locally, and if there is a problem with parts / warranty, they want it fixed without any hassle / BS / "conzone" - long song in Italian... from the factory.  :)

Today's Harley's are very, VERY reliable (in my experience), ;-T and I think Harley has a great worldwide dealer network and excellent customer service (in general) ;-T

[moltoguzzi]

If I was going to spend that many dineros on a RK wannabe, I'd spend it on the real thing instead of a subsitute.

Not for me thank you

I own the real things and it never fails to amaze me that (in the U.S. only) any other manufacture that makes a cruiser style motorcycle is accused of copying Harley. Harley didn't invent the chopper style nor did it invent the motorcycle and the difference in style between a 50's Guzzi and a Harley is that Harley used fatter tires. But all I hear is how everyone is copying Harley, even Ducati was accused of copying the Vrod with their Diavel. How in the world can anyone look at those two motorcycles and confused them as to which is the Harley is ridiculous to the absurd. Harley and Guzzi have different and distinct missions. One makes motorcycles that must look good, form over function, with slow turning engines with lots of torque and comfort and a who gives a shite about horsepower and super lean angles, thats for squids. The other strives for a balance of form, function, and durability and Piaggio knows it well. If I rode my RK like I ride my EV it would have been junk by now. I ride my EV like it was a drag race from 0 to 40 or 0 to 60 or 0 to 80 and on the right roads 0 to 120, hell I never shift before 6Krpm, the RK would melt if abused like the EV and I like Harley a lot but for different reasons.

[WFRFitness]

Some sweet pics of the new 1400cc motor ....  ;-T

[cruzziguzzi]

Single throttle body, large external alternator and nicely offset output shaft. So far, I'm liking it. Unfortunately, that tall an engine is going to lead to styling compromises sure to cause years of scoffing and derision.

[youcanrunnaked]

OMG!  One-fourth of that engine is missing!  An obvious design defect!



 ;D

[That one was for you, VDG. :-*)

[steven c]

 No design flaw, new way of open air cooling.

[bad Chad]

And it sure looks to not be cooled by H2O!

[Guzzistaracing]

So, not water cooled anyway then, or did I miss something? ???

[bad Chad]

Has to be air/oil cooled.

[youcanrunnaked]

So, not water cooled anyway then, or did I miss something? ???

I don't see any water jacket, but I do see lots of very deep cooling fins.

[Aaron D.]

Hmmm-timing gears...

[Vasco DG]

The motor is essentially an over-bored version of the current 8V that has been twin plugged. Tall 'Rocker' covers are simply cosmetic add-ons to presumably hide the twin plug caps.

Gear drive for the oil pumps and idler shaft is identical to the system on the current donk. As is the gearbox. Roller tappets are being introduced on Eropean MY 2011 bikes right now.

Looking at the throttle body it appears that it may use a version of the RBW system used on certain 'Prilas, nice!!!

VDG

[JohninVT`]

Do you suppose the double valve cover could be to knock down noise?  I've only ridden a few 8 valves but the vlave clatter seemed louder than my 2 valve in comparison.   

[Vasco DG]

Could be but the roller tappet bike I saw in Sydney was much quieter than any flat tappet 8V I've heard, even the ones with the cams shimmed for end float.

VDG

[Kev m]

Looks like they're simplifying maintenance.

Single throttle body = no balancing (and cheaper build cost).

Easier access to inner plug (without pulling tank) means cheaper maintenance.

I'm getting more excited about the possibilities.

[HDGoose]

I am wondering about fuel consumption and capacity.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Those extra long plugs are sure burried deep, good luck getting a compression tester on that baby.

[cruzziguzzi]

Those extra long plugs are sure burried deep, good luck getting a compression tester on that baby.

That or sticking your finger in the hole for TDC. :BEER:

[Vasco DG]

Those extra long plugs are sure burried deep, good luck getting a compression tester on that baby.

Thank heavens for the second pot! For a moment there I thought ou were being serious! ;D

[mphcycles]

 the single TB can be set up for improved torque  and the elec throttle will help with that too.  The covers are as Pete describes,  new lids on a similar to current head.  The point of the double-decker cover is to decouple  the outside surfaces  to reduce noise emissions.

[SISU Printer]

[/quote]

It looks like they're trying too hard in the styling dept... They need to keep it simple... I like the Cal-Vin's bags and luggage rack and pipes much better. Although I have to admit it is looking a bit dated. I'm having trouble with the new notched tank as well... They should be looking to their classic models like the Eldo and V7 Sport and come up with more modern takes on those with a little bit of practicality, timeless styling and gentle upgrades. This approach has done well for Harley and that might be a direction they should look at from a brand integrity stand point. I guess Harley did introduce the V-Rod and Ducati with the Diavel and Triumph with the Big triple beast. It would seem that if you wanted to sell more bikes you'd come up with a design that had a more universal appeal. Not a love it or hate it approach.

[kevdog3019]

the single TB can be set up for improved torque  and the elec throttle will help with that too.  The covers are as Pete describes,  new lids on a similar to current head.  The point of the double-decker cover is to decouple  the outside surfaces  to reduce noise emissions.

You mean we won't be able to hear the Italian percussion section??  ???

[Chicago Mark]

Does anyone else see the existing Tonti line gas tank on the California 1400 only with the cylinder cutouts because the engine is so tall?

I've always liked the existing Tonti gas tank and simply don't see the credibility of the flaccid whale penis remarks. Somewhere there's an embarrassed whale wondering why this forum doesn't just leave him out of this.

Mark

[acogoff]

   The oil pump gear appears to be nylon fibre or some such. Wonder what the other two are made from. I know a ford 300 6 cylinder had a fiber cam gear and would easily go 200 thousand miles. Just wondering.

[cruzziguzzi]

They're probably going for a "power bagger/cruiser" as the bikes you cited and as this is new territory for them I guess a couple of style fumbles are  understandable in pre-production.

[Luap McKeever]

I can't quit looking at this engine and that California they're going to put it in.  Hmmmmm.