Author Topic: California 1400 Merged Threadfest (Read 856319 times)

the Bailey · « **Reply #1080 on:** February 03, 2012, 11:03:47 PM »

it looks fine to me. it doesn't look that heavy to me either. i think they went with the Long and Low which gives the impression of being heavy. and unfortunately gives us that god awful hideous gas tank. give it a decent gas tank and it will sell.

Vasco DG · « **Reply #1081 on:** February 04, 2012, 12:22:58 AM »

I have a passionate dislike for 'Cruisers'. Ipso-facto it does nothing for me. I hope they sell a shirtload of them!!!

VDG

magoo · « **Reply #1082 on:** February 04, 2012, 04:19:14 AM »

I agree with Pete. That is one seriously ugly bike but for MG's sake I hope it works well and they sell a shipload in the US.

Still hoping they do a V9 cafe style bike based on the Bellagio but not holding my breath.

Luxexterior · « **Reply #1083 on:** February 04, 2012, 04:35:01 AM »

I don't understand all the negativity this bike is getting. Based on the pictures on the whole it looks great. Yes the tank could be bigger & the jury's out on the rear lights but its a concept/prototype bike that will doubtless be tweaked at the factory. Also if it is water or oil cooled so be it, emission regs have been making life difficult for Guzzi for years so it was only going to be a matter of time, as long as it rides like a Guzzi no problem.

To my mind it also looks nothing like a Jap cruiser of any description & certainly not the Rune. What we have here is a boldly styled yet classic looking 21st century motorcycle that could not have come from anybody else but Guzzi. If this goes into production I will guarantee that in 5 - 10 years time the styling be hailed as classic. Its also worth noting that pretty much all Guzzi's look better in the metal than in photographs.

Vasco DG · « **Reply #1084 on:** February 04, 2012, 05:36:01 AM »

I can't say I think there has been a lot of negativity. Criticism? Certainly! But surely that has to be a good thing.

You have to understand that outside of the USA 'Cruisers' have only recently become popular. Partly that is because of an ageing population of riders who find cruisers easy to ride, (They are.) and comfortable, (They can be.).artly it is because of the 'Popular Culture' image of motorcycling. But it is recent. Traditionally Europeans and Antipodeans hve been more Sportsbike or 'Sport-Touring' orientated. To many of us the whole 'Cruiser' thing is just plain confusing! Why would anybody want to ride something that looks fat and doesn't have modern suspension?

It's not so much negative as just a 'Disconnect'. At least from my viewpoint. As I said. I hope they sell them by the containerload.

VDG

Steph · « **Reply #1085 on:** February 04, 2012, 05:43:19 AM »

I like It ;-T

Like others, not sure about the tank.

I would want that fuel injection set just right, remembers the old Ford Pinto...? ;D
What would Ralph Nader think of that tank ???

john fish · « **Reply #1086 on:** February 04, 2012, 06:01:52 AM »

Sorry if it's a repost, but here's a vid that includes some pics of the Cali and of a scrambler version of the small block:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwREHnIUdZo&feature=player_embedded

Got it here:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/268670806522697/

California Inrenational Club on Facebook.

John

BillinAbilene · « **Reply #1087 on:** February 04, 2012, 06:41:34 AM »

This concept, to me, is influenced by the lines of a wasp. It is most evident in the rear fender (the abdomen), but can be seen in all of the lines of the bike. I can see cruiser influences and sport bike influences in this design. In my mind it wants to fall into that well-worn "street fighter" design category that is "not a cruiser" and "not a sport bike." I see a lot to like. But as I posted earlier, there is at least one deal-breaker for me.

As we are all aware, the Guzzi V-Twin poses some real ergonomic design challenges. One of the biggest is the seat-to-cylinders relationship.

When the big block engine first appeared (1970's IIRC) the average height of a male was 5'8" (172.7 cm). And the range of heights within one standard deviation of that mean was not that great [from about 5'6" to 6'0" (my numbers - don't quote these)]. The seat position on early big block Guzzis appears to have been dictated by a combination of factors - the "average" leg length of the "average" man (appx. 32") was one of those many factors. (Center of gravity is understood to be another of these issues, as are many others.) The positions of foot controls was influenced by this "average leg length" number, as well as the need to tuck feet under the engine cylinders. This last issue has always been a "biggie" for Guzzi (IMHO) and will continue to be an issue so long as the Guzzi engine design stays in its basic configuration.

In this early 21st Century the "average" height of a man has jumped dramatically [in the U.S. there is quite a controversy about who "owns" the data and the Feds won't release the numbers to, for example, the SAE (again, IIRC)]. I would bet the number is over 6'0" and the range of heights within one standard deviation of this average likely goes from about 5'7" to 6'5". That means there is quite a range in leg lengths (which are now much longer), but more importantly, to tuck feet under the engine cylinders, there is a need to move the seat back "a scooch" and move controls forward. Oooohhhh! :o I think this is why the foot controls are where they are on the concept bike pictured above (the old "seat-to-cylinders" ergonomic relationship, as well as the other design issues implied above).

Now, I want to address the issue that is so maddening to me - the instrument cluster. When an operator has her/his eyes off of the road for more than about two-and-a-half seconds an "event" has occurred; in the parlance of the "distracted driver" an "event" is any episode that poses risk of harm (i.e., risk of an accident causing harm or damage). As a motorcyclist, if my vision is off of the road for more than two-and-a-half seconds I have put myself (and others) at risk.

Instrument clusters that are difficult to perceive pose risk to the operator and to others. Factors that can make instrument clusters difficult to perceive include such things as arrangement of elements, sizes of elements, "mixtures" of element types, contrast between "targets" and "background", and on the list goes. The "concept" instrument cluster in the photographs above is a real "mess." I am willing to bet that no human being will be able to find a specific datum in the pictured instrument cluster (with any accuracy) without having to refer to the cluster more than once and for periods of time that qualify them as an "event." That is a real problem, because it says that Guzzi has not developed a thoughtful design, and, a potential buyer might quickly infer that this same lack of thought extends to other elements of the motorcycle. It's a deal breaker (IMHO)!

I'll quit before I get too revved up...I have a lot more to say about such things (ergonomics and human factors). I will close by saying that there are a number of things I really, really like about this design. But, I will not buy a vehicle that has a poor instrument cluster so I will not consider this Guzzi if it comes equipped with this or a similar instrument cluster. (And, of course, I have to be able to flat-foot on it ;) ).

Bill

JohninVT` · « **Reply #1088 on:** February 04, 2012, 07:01:51 AM »

Quote from: BillinAbilene on February 04, 2012, 06:41:34 AM

This concept, to me, is influenced by the lines of a wasp. It is most evident in the rear fender (the abdomen), but can be seen in all of the lines of the bike. I can see cruiser influences and sport bike influences in this design. In my mind it wants to fall into that well-worn "street fighter" design category that is "not a cruiser" and "not a sport bike." I see a lot to like. But as I posted earlier, there is at least one deal-breaker for me.

As we are all aware, the Guzzi V-Twin poses some real ergonomic design challenges. One of the biggest is the seat-to-cylinders relationship.

When the big block engine first appeared (1970's IIRC) the average height of a male was 5'8" (172.7 cm). And the range of heights within one standard deviation of that mean was not that great [from about 5'6" to 6'0" (my numbers - don't quote these)]. The seat position on early big block Guzzis appears to have been dictated by a combination of factors - the "average" leg length of the "average" man (appx. 32") was one of those many factors. (Center of gravity is understood to be another of these issues, as are many others.) The positions of foot controls was influenced by this "average leg length" number, as well as the need to tuck feet under the engine cylinders. This last issue has always been a "biggie" for Guzzi (IMHO) and will continue to be an issue so long as the Guzzi engine design stays in its basic configuration.

In this early 21st Century the "average" height of a man has jumped dramatically [in the U.S. there is quite a controversy about who "owns" the data and the Feds won't release the numbers to, for example, the SAE (again, IIRC)]. I would bet the number is over 6'0" and the range of heights within one standard deviation of this average likely goes from about 5'7" to 6'5". That means there is quite a range in leg lengths (which are now much longer), but more importantly, to tuck feet under the engine cylinders, there is a need to move the seat back "a scooch" and move controls forward. Oooohhhh! :o I think this is why the foot controls are where they are on the concept bike pictured above (the old "seat-to-cylinders" ergonomic relationship, as well as the other design issues implied above).

Now, I want to address the issue that is so maddening to me - the instrument cluster. When an operator has her/his eyes off of the road for more than about two-and-a-half seconds an "event" has occurred; in the parlance of the "distracted driver" an "event" is any episode that poses risk of harm (i.e., risk of an accident causing harm or damage). As a mototcyclist, if my vision is off of the road for more than two-and-a-half seconds I have put myself (and others) at risk.

Instrument clusters that are difficult to perceive pose risk to the operator and to others. Factors that can make instrument clusters difficult to perceive include such things as arrangement of elements, sizes of elements, "mixtures" of element types, contrast between "targets" and "background", and on the list goes. The "concept" instrument cluster in the photographs above is a real "mess." I am willing to bet that no human being will be able to find a specific datum in the pictured instrument cluster (with any accuracy) without having to refer to the cluster more than once and for periods of time that qualify them as an "event." That is a real problem, because it says that Guzzi has not developed a thoughtful design, and, a potential buyer might quickly infer that this same lack of thought extends to other elements of the motorcycle. It's a deal breaker (IMHO)!

I'll quit before I get too revved up...I have a lot more to say about such things (ergonomics and human factors). I will close by saying that there are a number of things I really, really like about this design. But, I will not buy a vehicle that has a poor instrument cluster so I will not consider this Guzzi if it comes equipped with this or a similar instrument cluster. (And, of course, I have to be able to flat-foot on it ;) ).

Bill

Umnn....it's in KM's. It would be easy to double the size of the numbers when they're in MPH. There looks to be plenty of room for that.

I agree that the gauge is going to be nearly impossible to read at a glance as it is now. It's quite far away, has a flat bezel that's going to reflect light like mad and the numbers are too small.

BillinAbilene · « **Reply #1089 on:** February 04, 2012, 07:17:10 AM »

Quote from: JohninVT` on February 04, 2012, 07:01:51 AM

Umnn....it's in KM's. It would be easy to double the size of the numbers when they're in MPH. There looks to be plenty of room for that.

I agree that the gauge is going to be nearly impossible to read at a glance as it is now. It's quite far away, has a flat bezel that's going to reflect light like mad and the numbers are too small.

John, look again. The speedometer needle will be very difficult to find when traveling "at speed" (or any time for that matter); the silly thing is just too small and is buried (objects in the foreground are perceived first!). The housing will also cast a shadow on the mid-range of the speedometer; that shadow will obscure the small needle (red turns to dark gray when dimly lit - it will be very difficult to see).

If you want to "experience" how this speedometer design doesn't work, go take a test drive on a V-Star 1300. The "shadow over the mid-range, small needle, hard to read" issue will be made immediately clear (especially if you wear sunglasses 8) ).

The "legend" (i.e., the numbers) are an issue, but the numbers are a minor issue if you can't find the indicator.

JohninVT` · « **Reply #1090 on:** February 04, 2012, 07:33:05 AM »

Quote from: BillinAbilene on February 04, 2012, 07:17:10 AM

John, look again. The speedometer needle will be very difficult to find when traveling "at speed" (or any time for that matter); the silly thing is just too small and is buried (objects in the foreground are perceived first!). The housing will also cast a shadow on the mid-range of the speedometer; that shadow will obscure the small needle (red turns to dark gray when dimly lit - it will be very difficult to see).

If you want to "experience" how this speedometer design doesn't work, go take a test drive on a V-Star 1300. The "shadow over the mid-range, small needle, hard to read" issue will be made immediately clear (especially if you wear sunglasses 8) ).

The "legend" (i.e., the numbers) are an issue, but the numbers are a minor issue if you can't find the indicator.

That's a very valid point, Bill. I didn't even think about the needle. I was just looking at the numbers. Maybe they'll have a large LCD readout of the MPH. I hate digitial speedo's but if the readout numbers are over an inch tall at least they'd be readable.

NC Steve · « **Reply #1091 on:** February 04, 2012, 08:11:04 AM »

Quote from: Wayne Orwig on February 03, 2012, 11:36:23 AM

It reminds me of the Rune, which I disliked.

The problem with that tank shape means.............. .Plastic tank.
Wonderful. ::)

Looks too much like a 'me too' styling goal.

:+1
Thanks, but no thanks.

ritratto · « **Reply #1092 on:** February 04, 2012, 09:02:59 AM »

An aesthetic nightmare. I'd rather ride a Harley and I hate Harleys. It just goes to show that Piaggio has no understanding of Guzzi sex appeal or history. Hang on to your current bikes and make 'em last. They may be the last pretty ones we see if the is an indicator of the future. ???

ritratto · « **Reply #1093 on:** February 04, 2012, 09:11:55 AM »

It also looks like they hired Arlen Ness or some comparable moron at Victory to help with their" design". And those farkin' wheels! Geeez!!!

Kev m · « **Reply #1094 on:** February 04, 2012, 09:36:58 AM »

It's amazing how this reminds me of the banter on the Harley forums regarding the new model release this week. :BEER:

I think a portion of the population embraces change while the other portion doesn't. Count me in the former more often than not.

Tank shape is so much better than Tonti Cali it's not funny.

Instruments - I concede Bill's probably forgotten more than I know BUT, isn't this a tad like the Breva/Norge instrument pod from a busy and potentially hard to read perspective.

I know part of what he says is true because I experienced a certain amount of distraction when I first got the big Beava. BUT that went away quickly as I adapted to/learned it. Might not the same happen with this?

Also looks like there is also a digital MPH display in it.

ritratto · « **Reply #1095 on:** February 04, 2012, 09:52:28 AM »

Humm, looks a lot like a big Vespa to me.

bpreynolds · « **Reply #1096 on:** February 04, 2012, 10:23:26 AM »

I didn't think it was possible, but just looking at that thing I notice that my penis became even smaller. :BEER:

Nick · « **Reply #1097 on:** February 04, 2012, 12:22:59 PM »

Quote from: JohninVT` on February 03, 2012, 01:15:51 PM

What the hell does a modern cruiser with shaft drive and tubeless tires need a centerstand for? Jesus H. Christ...some of you guys would bitch about ANYTHING that wasn't a 45 year old Eldorado.

It's going to weigh 650lbs at the very least. Your intestines would drop into your nutsack trying to yank something that big onto a centerstand.

Cue the whiney-ass voice over:

"I wish it had a centerstand"
"I wish it had points"
"It should have carbs"
"Will a Vetter fairing and Dan Brown bags fit?"
:beat_horse :beat_horse :beat_horse :beat_horse :beat_horse :beat_horse :beat_horse :beat_horse :beat_horse :beat_horse :beat_horse :beat_horse :beat_horse :beat_horse :beat_horse :beat_horse :beat_horse :beat_horse

Semper-guzzi · « **Reply #1098 on:** February 04, 2012, 12:30:20 PM »

As I look at it more and more and see the different angles i begin to love it more and more. I just hope it performs the way a Guzzi should. Can you imagine 1400cc in the Griso? This bike is going to be a beast.

Bill Hagan · « **Reply #1099 on:** February 04, 2012, 12:31:45 PM »

Quote from: Kev m on February 04, 2012, 09:36:58 AM

****

Instruments - I concede Bill's probably forgotten more than I know BUT, isn't this a tad like the Breva/Norge instrument pod from a busy and potentially hard to read perspective.

****

That is quite touching, kev. Thank you. I had no idea you viewed my knowledge and skills with so much esteem.

Oh. Bill929.

Sigh.

:D

Bill (of another kind)

P.S. You are such a hater; I love the Cali tanks of the '90's on, especially with the various EV livery.

Kev m · « **Reply #1100 on:** February 04, 2012, 12:48:01 PM »

"I AM THE LAW"

Quote from: ritratto on February 04, 2012, 09:52:28 AM

Humm, looks a lot like a big Vespa to me.

YOU'RE FRICKIN STONED!

Bill H - lol, not a hata, just not a lova of that old Cali amorphous blob of a tank. Too Harleyesque, at least this new tank has more character.

Antietam Classic Cycle · « **Reply #1101 on:** February 04, 2012, 01:09:35 PM »

I'm finding very little to like about this "Guzzi". Could be the blurry, poorly lit, lo-res photos are part of the problem, but that's not the whole story. I dislike "fake" - finned cover over the starter, finned covers over real rocker covers, everything styled for the sake of style, not for function. More stuff to hinder repair and add weight. Plastic everywhere. And air shocks? Hope they're more durable than others of that type. Taillights/rear fender reminds me of a back view of the Aprilia Atlantic 500 scooter.

No matter - I'm definitely not the buyer they're courting anyway.

ritratto · « **Reply #1102 on:** February 04, 2012, 01:21:20 PM »

Quote from: Kev m on February 04, 2012, 12:48:01 PM

"I AM THE LAW"

YOU'RE FRICKIN STONED!

Bill H - lol, not a hata, just not a lova of that old Cali amorphous blob of a tank. Too Harleyesque, at least this new tank has more character.

Gee Kev... is just an opinion... Hater is a terribly negative connotation. I don't like the goofy thing. You do. Nuff said. Lighten up bro! ;)

Chicago Mark · « **Reply #1103 on:** February 04, 2012, 01:40:07 PM »

A couple of lousy pictures and some of you guys pick the thing a part. Sheesh, how awful would it be to work for Piaggo/Moto Guzzi and read the junk from some on this forum. Here's an idea, wait and find out what may actually make it to the US. See it in person, sit on it, listen to it, ride it and read about it from people who actually have a clue. At least then you'd have something to base your criticism on.

YMMV,

Mark

Jim 06B1100 · « **Reply #1104 on:** February 04, 2012, 01:58:37 PM »

I like it.

ritratto · « **Reply #1105 on:** February 04, 2012, 02:08:42 PM »

I thought this was an open forum... open to ideas and opinions... you make a couple and people get all bent out of shape????? Have a beer and relax!

Bill Hagan · « **Reply #1106 on:** February 04, 2012, 02:21:23 PM »

Quote from: ritratto on February 04, 2012, 02:08:42 PM

I thought this was an open forum... open to ideas and opinions... you make a couple and people get all bent out of shape????? Have a beer and relax!

I think I may have unintentionally caused this. :o

I was kidding with kev, and used the "hater" word as a joke, because I know he doesn't like the Cali tanks.

He can speak for himself, but before this goes downhill, I'll just say that his response to your post and mine was not, I am pretty sure, intended in a mean-spirited way, and was quite the opposite.

Down in my garage ... back to doing what doesn't need to be done, badly. :D

Bill

ritratto · « **Reply #1107 on:** February 04, 2012, 02:28:19 PM »

Cool Bill... thanks for the clarity! ;-T

dnovo · « **Reply #1108 on:** February 04, 2012, 03:10:27 PM »

No Holy Wars, guys. It upsets the digestion. Dave

Kev m · « **Reply #1109 on:** February 04, 2012, 03:18:53 PM »

Yup, just taking the piss, shooting the shyte, busting nuts etc.

The "hata" comment was in response to Bill h regarding telling me not to be and I was saying I'm not.

Seemed clear to me but no biggie...

Hell the whole post started with a quote from Judge Dred. How could anyone take anything that followed seriously? Lol :BEER:

News:

Author Topic: *California 1400 Merged Threadfest* (Read 856319 times)

the Bailey

Vasco DG

Vasco DG

BillinAbilene

JohninVT`

BillinAbilene

JohninVT`

bpreynolds

Bill Hagan

Chicago Mark

Jim 06B1100

Bill Hagan

dnovo

Author Topic: California 1400 Merged Threadfest (Read 856319 times)