*California 1400 Merged Threadfest*

[Kev m]

The Norge is a sport tourer, NOT a "tourer" like the Harley dresser, Vic Crossroads or Vision, Goldwing or BMW KLT.

The Tonti Cali was arguably, at least in EV or Cal-Vin form on the lower (size wise) portion of that market segment.

It's likely that the Cal 14 is poised to penetrate that segment a little deeper.

Regardless, the Norge is a different segment occupied by the likes of the BMW RT, Kawi Concours, Honda St etc.

[StaysCrunchy]

Eh, I don't care for it. That's not meant to insult or incite, it's just my politely-stated opinion. Specifically I don't like the way the heads cut into the gas tank, the teenie exhaust outlets in the middle of those gigantic pipes, or the rear lights.

[Moto]

If the image is distorted and the wheels are not round, then the measurement from axle to axle is also distorted. It looked to be about a 3% stretch on the horizontal dimension. Ensuring the wheel rim is as round as possible is the first step in making sure that the follow on measurements make sense. I also used the center of the circles overlaid on the wheels in the image to set the axle distance, not the axles in the image because parallax error creeps in. Error creeps in in miserably, dastardly ways anyway. You just do what you can to minimize it. I had to change software packages because the 1988 Macintosh version of the software was far superior to the 2012 PC version. I wish that wasn't so, it would simplify my life a bit. We're just going to have to wait for some actual figures from Moto Guzzi.  :pop

No, I disagree about the round wheel bit. It doesn't matter for my calculation whether the wheels are oval shaped in the picture, since all my measurements are along a single line through the centers of the wheels. No vertical compression or stretching would affect any of my measurements along that line.  If you want to think of the distortion as a horizontal stretching, that would affect all of my measurements proportionately, with no overall effect on the estimate of the wheelbase. But that's not much of a Guzzi issue!

I'm beginning to think the front wheel is a 17 inch since no one has come forward with a source for the 18 inch claims and since I couldn't find any relevant information on the web. So my revised wheelbase of about 62.6 inches based on the 17 inch wheel size is my preferred estimate barring further evidence. You assumed the wheel was 18 inch, but didn't allow for the greater diameter of the rim as seen from the side. Happily, our two calculations arrived at about the same value because you ignored the extra diameter of the rim as viewed from the side at the same time you chose to assume an 18 inch wheel diameter.

If it turns out the wheelbase is indeed in the 62 inch range, and the center of gravity is as low as it seems, I think this bike might make a dandy tourer for those tedious Great Plains transits and a fun bike in the mountains on the other side. We can see the saddlebag mounts. If it only has a Real Cruise Control, I might buy one! The passenger seat has got to be miles ahead of my Griso's.

[youcanrunnaked]

The Norge is a tourer, this is a cruiser.

LMAO!

So, my last trip on my Cali EV (3,000 miles), was I cruising?  Touring?  Back-roads scratching?  Actually, some of each.

OK, ok, already.  We get it.  You don't like the bike.   Now, please, stop the supidity.  You're just embarrassing yourself with your comments.

To restate the obvious:  The California 1400 follows a long tradition of Moto Guzzi touring motorcycles.  It's not a random shot or a gimmick.  It's Guzzi tradition, brought up-to-date.

[rocker59]

 Two of you said the front wheel is 18 inches. What is the source of this information, please?

I'm beginning to think the front wheel is a 17 inch since no one has come forward with a source for the 18 inch claims and since I couldn't find any relevant information on the web.

It's Guzzis standard front wheel size on Tontis going back over 40 years.

It's a very common size on other cruisers and standards.

OK.  Here you go:  The front brakes are Brembo 320mm.  Take the measurements off the front brake rotor and get back to us...

 :beat_horse

[Moto]

You're seeming a bit haughty for your new station, Rocker.  ;)

But your argument holds up. I measure 73.5 mm for the wheel and 48.5 for the rotor (on my screen). Assuming the rotor is 320mm, the visible wheel rim should be (73.5/48.5) * 320 = 485mm, or 19.09 inches. That's what I'd expect for an 18-inch tire's rim, as I said above. I expect you're right about the brake disk and the tire size.

Unfortunately, that brings me back to my original estimate of a 66.1 inch wheelbase. Maybe that won't seem too big when I finally see the bike in person.

Moto

[rocker59]

Hopefully Guzzi will have a road-ready version on display at this falls motorcycle show.

Can't wait to see the actual specs.

[Kentktk]

  I had to change software packages because the 1988 Macintosh version of the software was far superior to the 2012 PC version. I wish that wasn't so, it would simplify my life a bit.

That`s no surprise ;D

[rocker59]

All of the Cal 14 goodness brought together in one convenient location...

Welcome to "The California 1400 Merged Threadfest"

[Vasco DG]

So it seems I was correct. Same engine with twin plugs to combat surging at low RPM.Probably find that like the DD1200 one plug, most likely the outer, will drop out above a certain engine speed.

Finned covers are cosmetic to cover up the twin plug leads and probably plug-top coils. I'm betting that the nine will remain entirely oil cooled with air assist but running a massive cooler with fan assist a-la 8V Norge.

Also I was looking at the pics I took of the revised camboxes in the 2013 models. Y'know, the bosses around the tappets look awfully like they could be machined to take the roller lifters shown in the cutaway 1400 engine and now listed for all 8V's but noted as Abolished.

I reckon the 1400 wil be the first iteration to use the new design.

VDG

[Kev m]

Pete, you just finish some tech training?

If so, did they answer any if our chassis spec questions?

[Vasco DG]

Nah. That's in August and the chances of me being able to screw anything worthwhile out of any snake-hipped factory droid who may or may not be there is negligible.

Look, it's going to be a big, heavy, long wheelbase, 'Cruiser' style motorbike that will handle, go and stop just like what it is. I really can't see why people are getting their panties in a wad over what it's wheelbase is going to be???

It will appeal to some people and won't to others. My guess is it will open the Guzzi door to a lot of newcomers and those that are determined not to like it? Well, why would the marketing bods waste any time, money and effort trying to sell it to them? Even if they did buy one it would only be to experiment finding out how many real parts could be substituted with shit from the $2 shop and wallyworld and then they'd complain long and loud about it breaking.

I think it looks like a great use of crossover technology from the Aprilia bikes, that's a great thing. The Noale mob build a lovely engine.

Pete

[Kev m]

LOL...FWIW the search and speculation for and about specs is just a way to fill the information gap as we wait for the real thing.

Big, heavy, cruiser etc is all relative, there is no Guzzi, other than the pathetically powered smallblock that is remotely light by today's standards right, so the hand wringing is extra silly....

[Moto]

I really can't see why people are getting their panties in a wad over what it's wheelbase is going to be???

You fellows in Oz must dress differently than we do.

Wheelbase is the key to overall scale in the pictures. Mass varies with the cube of scale, so the question of whether the front tire is 17 or 18 inches entails a difference of nearly 18 percent in weight. The relevant multiplicative factor is (19/18)^3 = 1.176. That should be about a 120 lb difference, say between 680 and 800 pounds. (1.176 * 680 = 800.)

Size matters. It's not obvious in the pictures, and it's worth considering as we daydream about this new bike. For some, it matters more than whether the tappets have rollers.

Moto

[Moto]

Might as well enter the big sweepstakes! My entry:

wheel base = 66 inches
weight = 800 lbs

Moto

[Kev m]

Might as well enter the big sweepstakes! My entry:

wheel base = 66 inches
weight = 800 lbs

Moto

WOW - as heavy and even LONGER than a Harley or Victory dresser - MAN I HOPE YOU'RE WRONG...

[cruzziguzzi]

WOW - as heavy and even LONGER than a Harley or Victory dresser - MAN I HOPE YOU'RE WRONG...

I can hang with that plan if only it comes with the power my Valkyrie had. Dreamers dream...

[Kev m]

It's Guzzis standard front wheel size on Tontis going back over 40 years.

It's a very common size on other cruisers and standards.

I meant to question this yesterday.

I don't see what Tonti's have been using as remotely relevant on a new design.

And sure there are some of the competition that use 18"  in front wheels (including the Goldwing or Victory Touring/Bagger models) but a BUNCH use other sizes like 17" (or even 16 or 21" wheels):

Harley

Touring bikes - Most use 130/80-17 or 130/90-16 (just the Street Glide & Road Glide Custom use 130/70-18)
Dynas - 100/90-19, 80/90-21, or 130/90-16 (just the Switchback uses a 130/70-18)
Softails - 16, 17 or 21
Sportsters - 16, 19 or 21   (just the Superlow and XRX use a 120/70-18)

BMW

K1600GT and R1200RT both use 17"

So I'm not sure how safe the assumption would be.

[kevdog3019]

Might as well enter the big sweepstakes! My entry:

wheel base = 66 inches
weight = 800 lbs

Moto

Wheel base= I don't care cause it's a cruiser
weight= 660 lbs

[Kev m]

I'm sticking with:

Wheelbase - 63"
Seat Heigth - 27-28"
Wet Weight - 650 lbs

But I'm an optimist

[Moto]

WOW - as heavy and even LONGER than a Harley or Victory dresser - MAN I HOPE YOU'RE WRONG...

I hope I'm wrong too.

[Lannis]

I'm sticking with:

Wheelbase - 63"
Seat Heigth - 27-28"
Wet Weight - 650 lbs

But I'm an optimist

I'm more of the school of :

Wheelbase - Too long, trying to copy the HD-clone crowd.

Engine - Too big.   Pushing a 40-year-old design too far in dispacement simply trying to "Keep Up With The HarleySakiYamaHons"

Wet Weight - 800 pounds - it's what people want.  Bigger is Better, we need new blood and they want BIG!

I'm an optimist too ....

Lannis

[Gabe EV]

I have been watching this new "Cali 1400" since we saw the first pix about a year ago. I liked it then and the more I see it (as it evolves) the more I like it. I'ed trade my 03 EV for this new Cali in a New York minit'. It looks to me like what a Cali should be. If it performs like I think it will, it will be the fastest, best handling Cruiser out there. The look as we all know is a matter of taste.........and it tastes good to me ..........GabeEv

[rboe]

The key is going to be how it handles.

After all, on paper the Griso should not handle as well as it does what with its' long wheel base (for a sport bike).

[Kev m]

Engine - Too big.   Pushing a 40-year-old design too far in dispacement simply trying to "Keep Up With The HarleySakiYamaHons"

Hasn't Pete already dispelled that?

And though I'm not looking for a bike bigger than 1100-1200cc, at least 1400cc isn't like the stupid monster 1500-1800cc or gawd 2L+ motors that some are selling.

[Muley]

Reality check!   Question:   What Guzzi model (in history) has been met with more jeers than cheers, that is, after it has actually been manufactured and sent to dealers?   Answer:  Not a single one to my knowledge.  The new Cali will not be for everyone, but I predict it'll sell like the Griso and Stelvio.  Anyone care to place a bet ;)

[Lannis]

Hasn't Pete already dispelled that?

He must not have, because I'm still of the same opinion - going after new markets is a good thing; doing it by trying to chase Hondavidsonukisaki and compete with them at the "Who's Got The Biggest One?" game isn't the way to do it.

Lannis

[Kev m]

He must not have, because I'm still of the same opinion - going after new markets is a good thing; doing it by trying to chase Hondavidsonukisaki and compete with them at the "Who's Got The Biggest One?" game isn't the way to do it.

Lannis

I think you completely missed my point - I'm not talking about playing the "who's got the biggest one" game or chasing other brands. Actually if anything they are spitting in the face of Harley, The big 4 Japanese Brands, Triumph AND BMW, all of whom seem to be of the opinion that 1200-1400cc is not enough for this market segment and have either pursued 1.6L or greater size motors or opted out of the segment (depending on whether you're talking "cruiser" or "tourer").

Anyway I was specifically responding to a portion of your opinion:

Engine - Too big.   Pushing a 40-year-old design too far in dispacement simply trying to "Keep Up With The HarleySakiYamaHons"

Specifically where you seemed to have felt that they have somehow pushed a 40 y/o design too far, and I don't see how you can make that claim, especially since according to Pete, it's not a 40 y/o design.

Thing is Kevin they have done away with the 'Old Mill'. Apart from its outward similarity the 8V motor has nothing, zero, zilch, relationship to the old 'Pushrod' engine.

As far as I can make out the 1400 Cali motor is simply a bored out version of the current 8V mill. It is neither water cooled or principally 'Air Cooled' in the traditional sense. It is oil cooled with air assist. The high rocker covers aren't. They are simply cosmetic shrouds to cover the twin HT leads and possibly plug-top coils on the new twin plugged heads. Cutaways of the prototype motors also had roller tappets and these are now listed in the parts pages for all earlier 8V's but are currently listed as 'Abolished'. I have no idea what this means????

VDG

[Gary]

He must not have, because I'm still of the same opinion - going after new markets is a good thing; doing it by trying to chase Hondavidsonukisaki and compete with them at the "Who's Got The Biggest One?" game isn't the way to do it.

Lannis

If it sells well, it is. And I believe it will sell better than any other model in the line-up. I believe that Piaggio / Moto Guzzi are doing a much better job assessing the market than past efforts. Of course, you "experts" may know better than them "eye-talians".

I am reminded of the outcry when Porsche decided to bring out an SUV. Blasphemy! A water-cooled engine. It will ruin Porsche. Hmm.. bailed them out of tough times to the point they nearly acquired VW. Of course the economy turned the tables and VW now owns Porsche along with Bugati. Porsche is wildly successful despite the "experts", and they don't have a single air-cooled vehicle. It appears that all you have to do is own one to become an expert.

I am sure the "experts" will bemoan the change from a 1400 mill to a water cooled 1600 years from now.

[youcanrunnaked]

I am willing to believe Miguel Galuzzi when he said he understands what Moto Guzzi is all about.  Assuming that's true, the new California will go, stop, and turn as a Guzzi should.  Therefore, I do not believe that the California 1400 will be longer than any Victory or weigh more than a Road King.  IMO, that's just crazy talk.

My prediction is that the new California 1400 will be marginally longer, lower, and heavier than the California Vintage, while being significantly more powerful AND better handling.

As a point of reference, here are the specifications for the CalVin:
 
Frame: Detachable tubular duplex cradle in special high-strength steel
Wheelbase: 61.4” (1,560 mm)
Trail: 4.5” (116 mm)
Rake: 29 °
Front suspension: Marzocchi hydraulic telescopic fork, Ø 45 mm, adjustable separately
Front wheel travel: 5.5” (140 mm)
Rear suspension: swing arm with 2 hydraulic shock absorbers, preload adjustable
Rear wheel travel: 3.8” (96 mm)
Braking system: Integral braking system, with proportioning and delay valve
Front brake: double Brembo Serie Oro stainless steel floating disc, Ø 320 mm, 4 piston calipers
Rear brake: single Brembo stainless steel floating disc, Ø 282 mm, 2 piston calipers
Wheels: Behr spoked steel rims
Front rim: 2.50” x 18”
Rear rim: 3.50” x 17”
Front tyre: 110/90 VB18"
Rear tyre: 140/70 VB17"
Length: 93.7” (2,380 mm)
Width: 32.1” (815 mm)
Height: 54.7” (1,390 mm)
Seat height: 30.7” (780 mm)
Ground clearance: 7.5” (190 mm)
Handlebar height: 41.3” (1,050 mm)
Front footboard height: 12.8” (326 mm)
Rear footboard height: 15.1” (385 mm)
Dry weight: 580 lbs (263 kg)
Fuel tank capacity: 5 gallons (19 liters)
Reserve: 1 gallon (4 liters)


So, my predictions for the California 1400 in key areas are as follows:

Wheelbase:  63.4"

Seat Height: 29"

Weight (dry/wet): 600 / 640 lbs.

Power (measured at the crank):  115 bhp @ 6900 rpm and maximum torque of 120 Nm @ 5800