*California 1400 Merged Threadfest*

[Chicago Mark]

YCRN,

     You're 100% right. I'm hoping the rider in the video is at least 6'4". His knees appear to be higher than his butt on the seat. That doesn't look like a very comfortable riding position to me. Hopefully I'm wrong as I really want this to be a good 2-up bike for the long haul. The original bad picture of the white Cali 1400 from a Piaggio meeting last year gave me hope. The more I see these terrible photos and now this suspect video the more it seems like it's not much, if any, larger than my old Bassa. That would be a shame as it wouldn't even be a consideration for me at that point.

Lannis,

     I wrote that at 80-90mph we were getting past by 70% of the traffic. I was only keeping up with the right lane riders as my wife seriously doesn't like those speeds. Anything less and we would have been run off the road or simply run over.

All the best,

Mark

[Dogwalker]

I also wonder if the design envelope is being exceeded? 

The actual design was created as a 1200, and was meant from the beginning to be further enlarged.
The old design was bored out to 1420cc and 160 hp without problems, with the Big Bore engine.

[Joliet Jim]

Wow a 1400 is a middleweight and 750s are doorstops unusable on the highways. I know i haven't ridden in a few weeks, but when did all this happen

[Lannis]

Wow a 1400 is a middleweight and 750s are doorstops unusable on the highways. I know i haven't ridden in a few weeks, but when did all this happen

It happened when the Madison Avenue Marketing boys finally won the battle they've been fighting since 1973 ...... a mournful event, for sure ....

"Don't buy that pathetic little motorcycle; that's not for a REAL man like you!   You need CUBIC INCHES, muscle, SOUND, fury, ground-pounding thunder!   What do you want to be, a scooter rider?   You want to look like a Dewey on your pitiful 750?    No, sir, mister, the Alpha male rides a 1400cc, 1600cc, 2000cc ... you think any woman is going to want a man with less than 120 inches?    It's only money,  what's a few $300 tires and 30 MPG?  you can't take it with you, so get something BIG between those legs and go out and make your mark!"

I know those guys, they're relentless, and they've got us now ...

Lannis

[Joliet Jim]

at least some of us, but i'm still liking the 750 shiver or 800 tigers, for a 400lb range bike.  That's why i really liked buells, decent power and light weight.

[rocker59]

It happened when the Madison Avenue Marketing boys finally won the battle they've been fighting since 1973 ...... a mournful event, for sure ....

"Don't buy that pathetic little motorcycle; that's not for a REAL man like you!   You need CUBIC INCHES, muscle, SOUND, fury, ground-pounding thunder!   What do you want to be, a scooter rider?   You want to look like a Dewey on your pitiful 750?    No, sir, mister, the Alpha male rides a 1400cc, 1600cc, 2000cc ... you think any woman is going to want a man with less than 120 inches?    It's only money,  what's a few $300 tires and 30 MPG?  you can't take it with you, so get something BIG between those legs and go out and make your mark!"

I know those guys, they're relentless, and they've got us now ...

Lannis

I'm glad I'm secure in my manhood and can enjoy riding the V7 Classic out in public, during daylight hours even...    :D

[Chicago Mark]

Jim,
 
     Compare the not yet released California 1400 to most successful cruisers and tourers on the market, Harley-Davidson. Someone mentioned Guzzi only increased the engine size to keep up with the market of the marketing of bigger is better. Since just about all the major manufacturers make cruisers and tourers much larger than 1400, I did indeed call the new Cali a middleweight. The existing (former) 1064cc Tonti frames certainly bring up the botttom of the middleweight market IMHO. Again, not that I have a problem with that, it's just reality. So the new Cali 1400 seems firmly planted in the middleweight devision by any reasonable engine displacement measure. I'm not however saying it's too small as I'm very anxious to see and ride one. I also said I think the Cali 1400 will compare very well against the many 1300cc to 1900cc cruisers and tourers available.
     Heck, I'd likely trade someone my beautiful white 2009 Griso 8v for a 2009 white California Vintage. Imagine that, 'downsizing' the size of my Guzzi.  ;)
     As for the 750, I wouldn't have put myself 2-up on the Tollway last Sunday on one. Certainly not intentionally or for any length of time. Way too dangerous from my perspective as we simply would have been run off the road. To much diescrepency in speed is a very bad thing on the highways. And it's not just that stretch of I-94, on many sections of many highways traffic averages well above the posted speed.
 
All the best,

Mark
 

[Lannis]

     Compare the not yet released California 1400 to most successful cruisers and tourers on the market, Harley-Davidson.

Mark
 

THAT'S the core problem, right there.   I ride Guzzis because I want to ride something that is NOT "compared to", chasing, emulating or otherwise using Harley Davidson as a role model, no matter how successful they are.  And that's what I'm afraid they're doing.   And MY OPINION is that it's not going to work for them.

Lannis

[rocker59]

1400 will not sell to the "size buyers".  Of course, they're probably not potential Guzzi customers, anyway.

From a strictly marketing standpoint, Guzzi should've probably gone at least 1600, if not 1800, if they were wanting to capture the ignorant, non-riding, bar-hopping displacement crowd.

The bike will probably kick the ass of any cruiser currently built, as far as performance and handling go.  It's going to take a savvy buyer to recognise that.  A buyer who understands performance rather than CCs or cubic inches.

Of course, all Guzzi has to do is pick up a couple thousand extra sales with this bike and it will be a huge success for them...

I'm sure that's what they're aiming for.  They're not trying to conquer the market, just carve out a few sales for Guzzi.

[bad Chad]

Mark, I don't quite understand why you would want a Vintage, other than it would look cool in the garage.   I in no way mean that as a put down to the Vintage, I like the bike a lot, but it doesn't seem to fit your criteria.

You have stated more than once that although you really liked your Bassa's, they where under powered.   So coming off a Val and 8v Griso how is it you think the Vintage will be up to the task?   It's essentially no bigger, and marginally more powerful than the Bassa, how is that going to work for you?

Seems like you might want to go with a late model Road King, or wait a few more months and get a good look at the nevo Cal.  Just my thoughts.

[Chicago Mark]

Rocker59,

     I agree with you completely, except that if Piaggio sells 500 to 750 Cali 1400's it'll be a huge sucess. But the 2nd and 3rd versions will likely have an even larger engine. Anyone in the 'know' knows you more than a big engine. Sadly, most riders and non-riders aren't really in the know.

All the best,

Mark

[bad Chad]

 :+1

1400 will not sell to the "size buyers".  Of course, they're probably not potential Guzzi customers, anyway.

From a strictly marketing standpoint, Guzzi should've probably gone at least 1600, if not 1800, if they were wanting to capture the ignorant, non-riding, bar-hopping displacement crowd.

The bike will probably kick the ass of any cruiser currently built, as far as performance and handling go.  It's going to take a savvy buyer to recognise that.  A buyer who understands performance rather than CCs or cubic inches.

Of course, all Guzzi has to do is pick up a couple thousand extra sales with this bike and it will be a huge success for them...

I'm sure that's what they're aiming for.  They're not trying to conquer the market, just carve out a few sales for Guzzi.

[Chicago Mark]

Chad,

     The Valkyrie will remain the staple of my motorcycle riding diet for the forseeable future. I do really enjoy it and it's fantastic 1-up or 2-up. But if I had the money, I'd sell or trade both the Valkyrie and the Griso and get a Victory Cross Country Tour a Harley Road Glide Ultra or something similar. The Valkyrie also isn't worth a whole lot as a trade in or selling outright. It's a 1999 and most anyone except those who know Valkyries don't want such an 'old' motorcycle with 6 carbs.
     I favor the 2009 white CalVin as it looks great and would also make good 1-up ride. 2-up, for me, not so much. Certainly not as long as I have the big Valkyrie. A CalVin would certainly be down on power but frankly, I need to slow my speed down. That's one of the reasons I'd like to sell or trade the Griso 8v. Without constant watch of the speedo, I seem to be riding in the bikes sweet spot by sound, engine feedback etc. Which is, as you know, typically well above the posted speed limits. The 8v engine does satisfy in a similar way as my old Centauro though. Just much more refined so it's easier to be going faster on the Griso than you think. On the Centauro, you know darn well when you're going 80+. On the Griso 8v, for me anyway, it's just not that obvious. Maybe partly because it's so much fun I don't really want to be watching the speedo.
     I would be $1,000's ahead if I had never traded away my Bassa in the first place. At the time, most of my riding was done solo. Now, most of my riding is with other CMA or BFC members so conditions are more suitable for a Bassa or a CalVin. My wife is also now involved in the CMA and the BFC. If she's on her Sporty, a Bassa or CalVin for me would be great. If she's riding with me, the Valkyrie is the only option.

Thanks for asking,

Mark
  

[bad Chad]

Thanks for the explanation. :)

[Lannis]

 A CalVin would certainly be down on power but frankly, I need to slow my speed down. 
   

Aren't you going to get run over if you do that?   I've heard that those Chicago-area freeways are fierce.   :D

All right, all right, I'll stop ......  :beat_horse    ;)

Lannis

[rocker59]

Aren't you going to get run over if you do that?   I've heard that those Chicago-area freeways are fierce.   :D

All right, all right, I'll stop ......  :beat_horse    ;)

Lannis

Much more orderly than anything in the DC metro!

I'd take Chicago traffic any day over anything on the East Coast!

[Lannis]

Much more orderly than anything in the DC metro!

I'd take Chicago traffic any day over anything on the East Coast!

My observation is that everyone thinks that their traffic is the worst.   Atlanta guys will swear that I85/75/285 makes the DC Beltway look like a cakewalk,  Houston guys compare their traffic to Los Angeles' disadvantage, Chicago guys think that Boston is a walk in the park ... and Londoners will say that the M25 is a nightmare on earth, not to be compared with anything else.

I just adjust my attitude and speed to whatever's going on, go with it, and (IF I don't like it) don't go that way again if I can avoid it.   "Avoiding It" generally means living somewhere else, though.

Lannis

[Joliet Jim]

heck mark i'm just having fun with you.  i was going to recommend 12/20 through the dunes as a very nice alternative to Indiana craziness.

[rocker59]

My observation is that everyone thinks that their traffic is the worst.   Atlanta guys will swear that I85/75/285 makes the DC Beltway look like a cakewalk,  Houston guys compare their traffic to Los Angeles' disadvantage, Chicago guys think that Boston is a walk in the park ... and Londoners will say that the M25 is a nightmare on earth, not to be compared with anything else.

I just adjust my attitude and speed to whatever's going on, go with it, and (IF I don't like it) don't go that way again if I can avoid it.   "Avoiding It" generally means living somewhere else, though.

Lannis

I don't mind Houston and Austin.  DFW, on the other hand ALWAYS has some road-blocking accident when I'm trying to get through there.  Unless it's 5am.

Chicago and St Louis are pretty orderly, if you're an assertive driver.

Northern Virginia is full of road-raging maniacs.  A bunch of angry folks in Birmingham, too, for some reason...

Denver's I-25 can be a pain, but otherwise it's not too bad...

Atlanta just has a shite-load of traffic and it takes forever to get around the place when trying to get over to Savannah.

I've not been to SoCal since I was a kid, but I can imagine that it would wear me out.

[bad Chad]

My observation is that everyone thinks that their traffic is the worst.   Atlanta guys will swear that I85/75/285 makes the DC Beltway look like a cakewalk,  Houston guys compare their traffic to Los Angeles' disadvantage, Chicago guys think that Boston is a walk in the park ... and Londoners will say that the M25 is a nightmare on earth, not to be compared with anything else.

I just adjust my attitude and speed to whatever's going on, go with it, and (IF I don't like it) don't go that way again if I can avoid it.   "Avoiding It" generally means living somewhere else, though.

Lannis

Good lord, I agree with Lannis again!     Although if I recall the so called objective experts rank Chicago traffic in the top 3 worst of the country.

[JohninVT`]

When I questioned whether the design envelope was being exceeded, I had a few things on my mind.  The primary one being the 8 valve's well documented need for the finest synthetic oil.  The reason for that is the amount of heat the engine generates.  A 15% increase in volume(1200cc's to 1400cc's) doesn't equate to a 15% increase in surface area on the piston and cylinder walls.  I've forgotten my high school geometry but it's not a linear relationship.  The surface area increase is what bumps the heat factor.  That's also why multi cylindered, small capacity engines can make more power than larger, single cylinder engines(sweeping generalization I know, but based in physics).   

It is impossible to make power without heat.  A Harley 80CI engine makes 60hp on a good day.  The Guzzi 1400cc engine spec has been quoted many times in various outlets as being in the 100hp range.  The generally accepted hot rodding formula for big twins over the last 50 years has been that for every cubic inch, you should not exceed 1 hp if you want longevity.  Again, the need to shed heat is the limiting factor in making reliable power from any air-cooled engine.

It all leads me to think there will be fairly sophisticated timing logic programmed into the ECU, along with a giant oil cooler with fan assist(already noted in previous posts).  Pushing the boundaries in this way has historically blunted the flexibility of engines.  They've been more, "peaky" and operated under a more limited performance envelope. 

Just my .02.  As an aside, the bike looks to be about halfway between a CalVin and a Fatboy in size.  I think sub-700lbs(but not by much) and around a 63-4inch wheelbase would be reasonable assumptions.       

[Mark West]

Now that the daily traffic report is over....

My recent thoughts on the Cal 1400. it's no use mourning the demise of the current Tonti/Cal. Guzzi spent decades trying to expand that platform and I think it's safe to say that the customer base for that product line was about as big as it was going to get. Tweaking motors and styling may have made it a little better, but would not make a substantial difference. No matter how much current owners may love them, Guzzi has made the decision to move on with or without you. Same for the Spine frame. It ain't coming back so get over it.

They are after a new market now. Perhaps they see how well the Diavel is doing for Ducati or how well the Vision is doing for Victory. I don't know but one thing is clear is they are headed in a new direction. Bigger motors, different styling. Hopefully the handling will still be a priority but we'll just have to wait to ride one of these things to see. I personally have never had an inclination to want a 700lb motorcycle, but it's obvious that many people do. If that is what the Cal 1400 ends up being so be it. Maybe if I ride one, I'll love it. Maybe not. I know I won't buy it just cause it's a Guzzi. If it doesn't fill my needs, I'll look elsewhere.

Regardless of whether or not I like it, I hope it sells well and allows Guzzi to continue to do more new models. Personally I like bold designs and I think the new Cal is pretty bold. Some will love it, some will hate it, but very few will not have an opinion, and to me that is a good thing. Maybe after the Cal release, a new sport bike will come, or perhaps a new small block or something completely different. Looking forward to seeing whatever comes next.

[rocker59]

Spine frame. It ain't coming back so get over it.

 

But I don't want to!!!

 

[Vasco DG]

If you want to see where the extra 200cc's are coming from?




The spigots on the 1200 barrels tell the story! They're about 12mm thick. The 1400 motor is simply going to be an over bored version of the same piece of kit with twin plugged heads to combat combustion surging issues. Betcha.

VDG

[bad Chad]

I suffer from several mental short comings, (but I don't let that stop me!) what are the "spigots on the 1200 barrel"?

[rocker59]

I suffer from several mental short comings, (but I don't let that stop me!) what are the "spigots on the 1200 barrel"?

Those "sleeves" that are sticking up.

[Semper-guzzi]

My observation is that everyone thinks that their traffic is the worst.   Atlanta guys will swear that I85/75/285 makes the DC Beltway look like a cakewalk,  Houston guys compare their traffic to Los Angeles' disadvantage, Chicago guys think that Boston is a walk in the park ... and Londoners will say that the M25 is a nightmare on earth, not to be compared with anything else.

I just adjust my attitude and speed to whatever's going on, go with it, and (IF I don't like it) don't go that way again if I can avoid it.   "Avoiding It" generally means living somewhere else, though.

Lannis

I grew on the east coast in CT. I frequented NY and Boston quite a lot. The traffic sucked. Then I moved to Cali. LA traffic is easily way worse than anything on the east coast I've dealt with.... Then I moved to Chicago. The traffic isn't worse than LA but the road conditions are and the drivers are. I find Chicago freeways always under construction with holes EVERYWHERE. Chicago is in my experience so far the most jenky place to ride. Just my experience in my travels. Everyone is entitled to their opinions.

[Vasco DG]

The extended part of the barrel that fits into the crankcase. Sorry, that photo is of the barrel off a 1200. The spigot is facing towards the camera and as you can see the walls of it are 10-12mm thick. They don't have to be anywhere near that thick to take the latteral thrust forces of the piston. If you look for instance at the wall thickness on the spigots of one of the 1100 'pushrod' engine barrels you will find that they are much thinner, I can't remember offhand exactly how thick 4mm maybe?

 One of the limiting factors for capacity increase of the old pushrod motor was the stud pattern which didn't allow for any increase in the size of the 'oles in the crankcase that the barrel spigots slip into. With the new Hi-Cam motor the crankcase has been re-designed and the stud spacing widened. This, along with the adoption of steel laminate gaskets and a four stud hold-down system rather than the previous six stud one has allowed for wider stud spacing and therefore bigger bores to be fitted to the case meaning swept volume can be increased.

Raising the motor in the frame allowed for the fitment of a deeper sump to combat the other bugbear of increased capacity, crankcase pressurization. How this is going to be tackled on the increased capacity Cali with a lower slung engine is going to be interesting, although it may use the same sump or something similar and run less ground clearance. Who knows?

[Vasco DG]

Oh, just doing the sums. Using the same stroke of 81.2 mm as the 1200 motors if you increase bore size to 100mm from the 95 of the 1200 you'll get a swept volume of just under 1300cc's. Make the bore 105 mm and you get a swept volume of 1406cc. There is plenty of 'Meat' in the spigots for a 10mm increase in bore diameter.

VDG

[CalVin2007]

   An added bonus of more cc swept area is the possibility of a flat(ter) top piston and revised combustion chamber with a chance of some quench area. Compression ratio can be maintained while octane requirements can be reduced. A non-detonating engine is a happy engine!
   Those spigots are the thickest I've ever seen.....wow.

   Terry