Rocker59's Spine Frame Chronicles...

[rocker59]

Here's the little reminder I have for the relay order...

          From front-to-back, it goes:

START
LIGHTS
NEUTRAL
ECU
EFI


Hope that helps.

Thanks!

[Mile High Guzzi]

I have thought about carrying extra fuses and relays for my V11, but had not researched enough to know which ones were prone to failure / what to carry / etc.  Is there a fuse/relay survival kit that V11 travelers should consider carrying?

[cpallen]

Have you checked the cable that goes into the headlight assembly to make sure it's seated? I don't have the schematic with me to give more details....

[Kiwi_Roy]

My guess is the headlight relay's not picking up, it feeds 12V to the tach and also the Voltage reg so you won't be charging either.
Do you have a good 5 pin in the start position?

Unplug the headlight relay and test for Voltage on pin 30 and  85 or 86

I may be wrong about charging if you don't have a Ducati Energia reg

[rocker59]

My guess is the headlight relay's not picking up, it feeds 12V to the tach and also the Voltage reg so you won't be charging either.
Do you have a good 5 pin in the start position?

Unplug the headlight relay and test for Voltage on pin 30 and  85 or 86

I may be wrong about charging if you don't have a Ducati Energia reg

I had a bad OEM relay and replaced it with another one, a spare, that also failed. 

I've bought new, supposedly better, relays, but just wanting to confirm relay position on the rack.

I've installed a new relay in the #2 position, but still have no headlight, brake light, or tachometer.

Either I have another bad relay, or something is causing the relays to fail, or there is a wiring problem between the relay and one of the lights...

I'm sure it's something simple, but I'm not really very quick with electrics.

[rocker59]

I have thought about carrying extra fuses and relays for my V11, but had not researched enough to know which ones were prone to failure / what to carry / etc.  Is there a fuse/relay survival kit that V11 travelers should consider carrying?

Look at your fuse box and carry one of each of the 5, 10, 15, and 30 amp fuses.  I keep mine in a small box in the tail.

I have sourced replacement relays from O'Reilly Auto.  I can get you the part number, if you like.  I would carry at least one relay in the box with the spare fuses.

On my trip to Ouray, I had a relay fail in Enid, Oklahoma.  Luckily, it was a weekday and O'Reilly's was open.  If it had failed out in the boonies, it would've been much less convenient.

The relay is somewhat of an oddball, and O'Reilly's will probably only have one in stock. 

[twhitaker]

Dpguzzi on this board also sells the relays. He has a replacement front brake light switch.

[Mile High Guzzi]

Yes, please post the part number for the relays, I am going to get a backup or two (plus the fuses).

[fotoguzzi]

order good relays from Pyro dan here,
http://dpguzzi.com/

5 for 20 bucks, good deal on good relays.

Rocker, have you inspected the relay base? it may have bad connection.

[rocker59]

These are the relays I got from O'Reilly's.  They're about $13 each.  They're the blue ones...







So, this afternoon I double-checked my work.  Installed new 15 amp fuse for headlights.  Swapped relays around, using one that would run the fuel pump in the headlight position.

No Joy.

Foto, next I will have to check the connections under the relay rack.  You might be on to something there.  Maybe I have a loose, or worn wire under there...

 :BEER:

[fotoguzzi]

because if you have a Corbin or any other seat in might be crushing down on the relays? OR check that the plug into the CPU isn't getting pinched from seat pressure.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Remove the headlight relay then probe the base with a meter or test light to chassis.
Standing on left side of bike the relay base 30 contact should be the furtherest from you (it's the large one by itself) and should read 12 Volts.

With the key on you should also see 12 Volts across the two coil contacts, they are the two small ones at the bottom corners, this power comes from the start relay normally closed contact.

If you have had the battery out check to make sure you put back all the wires, it's easy to miss one.

Push down an each of the relay base contacts to make sure one is not popping out the back when you insert the relay, you could also check the connectors are gripping properly with a sliver of metal the same thickness as the relay pin.

Looking at Carl's drawing fuse 1,2 4 & 5 should have 12V on them at all times but just be aware sometimes the fuses are in a different order, check the legend or owners manual.

Good Luck

Roy


http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2004_V11_Sport_Catalytic.gif

http://i1304.photobucket.com/albums/s526/Kiwi_Roy/RelayBaseRepair_zps8809f6c1.jpg

[LowRyter]

http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=18199

Michael, we got a schooling on this at the Spine Frame Raid.  All the answers have been posted here but you might like the thread.  We came to the conclusion that in a pinch you could cannibalize the dash/headlight relay to get the bike to run.

[Chuck in Indiana]

Make sure you have power to the second relay, also *the ground* in the relay base is grounded. Report back.  ;D

[rocker59]

Remove the headlight relay then probe the base with a meter or test light to chassis.
Standing on left side of bike the relay base 30 contact should be the furtherest from you (it's the large one by itself) and should read 12 Volts.

With the key on you should also see 12 Volts across the two coil contacts, they are the two small ones at the bottom corners, this power comes from the start relay normally closed contact.
 

 OK.  "Always on" 12v going to the #30 contact, the one farthest from me as standing on left of motorcycle.

No power between the two coil contacts, with or without the key.

I checked another relay base and confirmed that the key would switch power between the two coil contacts.

The relay base contacts seem to be in place.

Is this pointing to a bad wire on one of the coil contacts?

[Chuck in Indiana]

 OK.  "Always on" 12v going to the #30 contact, the one farthest from me as standing on left of motorcycle.

No power between the two coil contacts, with or without the key.

I checked another relay base and confirmed that the key would switch power between the two coil contacts.

The relay base contacts seem to be in place.

Is this pointing to a bad wire on one of the coil contacts?

with the relay out, do you have power between 30 and neg on the battery? If so, do you have power probing 30 and 86? If yes, bad relay. If no bad ground on 86.

[rocker59]

with the relay out, do you have power between 30 and neg on the battery? If so, do you have power probing 30 and 86? If yes, bad relay. If no bad ground on 86.

Power between 30 and battery negative.
Power between 30 and the slot just below it.  Is that 86?

I have installed a known good relay that will power the fuel pump in position 5 and will power the starter in position 1.

I'm beginning to think there is a problem between the two smaller, vertical slots at the lower end of the relay base.  Are those 87 and 87A ?

[Chuck in Indiana]

Power between 30 and battery negative.
Power between 30 and the slot just below it.  Is that 86?

I have installed a known good relay that will power the fuel pump in position 5 and will power the starter in position 1.

I'm beginning to think there is a problem between the two smaller, vertical slots at the lower end of the relay base.  Are those 87 and 87A ?

I'm no electrician. Just looking at the diagram, 87a doesn't do anything. It looks like when the relay is energized, it makes contact between 87 and 30. You'd think that would do it. If it has power there, I'd go to the next plug in the harness and check there, etc.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Power between 30 and battery negative.
Power between 30 and the slot just below it.  Is that 86?

I have installed a known good relay that will power the fuel pump in position 5 and will power the starter in position 1.

I'm beginning to think there is a problem between the two smaller, vertical slots at the lower end of the relay base.  Are those 87 and 87A ?

Are you sure you are on the headlight relay, I thought it was in the No 2 position.
Sort out which is the Start relay and it will be the other one, the bike won't crank if you remove the start relay

The coil terminals are 85 and 86, the two outside small ones.
One of the small pins should have 12 Volts on it with the key on, this comes from the normally closed contact of the start relay which must be a 5 pin variety.
The other small pin should be connected to ground.

To summarize you should have a wire from the 87A pin of start relay to either 85 or 86 of the headlight relay, with the key on this wire should be hot.

[rocker59]

Well, since the headlight isn't working, I'm pretty sure I"m on the headlight relay.

1st position is the starter.  Starter turns when relay installed.  Does not turn when relay removed.

2nd position previously would run headlight when installed.

3rd position neutral switch.

4th position runs the ECU.  Bike will not start with this relay removed.

5th position runs the fuel pump.  Fuel pump will not prime with this relay removed.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Since the bike cranks you must have power on the 30 pin of start relay.
When the start relay is not busy cranking the bike it sends this power to the coil of the headlight relay so check the headlight coil pins to ground, 1 should have 12 Volts on it
Then check between the two coil pins you should once again have 12 Volts If not you might have lost the ground.

If you ease the start relay out a little bit you should get 12V on the middle small pin (87A)

Report back.

[Chuck in Indiana]

Roy, help me out here. It looks to me like there is no connection to 87a..why would it have 12v?

[Kiwi_Roy]

Chuck, we are talking about the start relay, 30 to 87a is normally closed so power on 30 is also on 87a

[Chuck in Indiana]

Chuck, we are talking about the start relay, 30 to 87a is normally closed so power on 30 is also on 87a

Well, duh! Thanks Roy.. I was looking at the wrong relay.. ::)

[rocker59]

Thanks for the help gentlemen!   ;-T

I'll mess with it again tomorrow, when I have some natural light.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Start relay (5 pin) 67A to Headlight relay coil.

Good Luck

[rocker59]

Start relay (5 pin) 67A to Headlight relay coil.

Good Luck

Roy,

I owe you a beer, or dinner.  I'll pay up at the next rally we both attend!  It seems that in the switching of relays while trying to diagnose the problem, I removed the 5-pin relay from the 1st position, and it ended up in the 4th position.  It seems the 1st relay requires a 5-pin, but the remaining four only require 4-pin relays.  Anyway, moving that 5-pin relay back to the 1st position allowed the headlight, tach, and brake light to work.





Now, the question still remains.  Why did my "new" two month old relay fail in the 2nd position?  And, why did another new relay also fail in that position?  Hmmm.... 

I'll do some road testing now to see if all is well.  And, I'll just make sure I carry a couple extra relays with me.

I'm not much of an electrician, so Roy and Chuck, I really appreciate the help!

 :BEER:

[Kiwi_Roy]

That's great Michael, no need to buy me a beer we all owe you for moderating right here.
Besides I owe you for putting on the Colorado "Not a rally" giving me an excuse to add to my collection.

Your bike only uses a 5 pin in slot 1 but you can put them in all slots, (some other guzzis use it in the side-stand relay also)
Looking at the bottom photo you can see the 87A connector in relay 1 base (the middle one) relay 2 doesn't have one.

I don't know why your relay failed, possibly a manufacturing defect, there's nothing difficult in switching the headlight, perhaps just look at the base
again and check the connectors are gripping the pins properly, if not just pop them out the back using a release tool (sliver of sheet metal), give them a squeeze.
I haven't had a relay go yet, the V11 I had in Colorado still has it's original Siemens but I have a new spare set on hand.

http://i1304.photobucket.com/albums/s526/Kiwi_Roy/RelayBaseRepair_zps8809f6c1.jpg

[rocker59]

merged into "the spine frame chronicles".

 :bike

[Dharma Bum]

Rocker, BTDT.  Last week I went to start my Cali to head to work and it would not start.  Realized that my fuel pump was not energizing.  I toggled the ignition switch a couple of times and all was good.  On the way home the bike started fine but quit running before I got out of the parking lot.  Toggled the ignition switch a few times and made it home.  Took out the Fuel Pump relay and cleaned the connections, the pump energized every time I switched the key on.  Until the next morning.  I switched the relay from the headlite circuit to the fuel pump circuit and solved the problem.  Headlite is coming on but I have noticed it is not on all the time so I will replace the relay.  I've been using AR606 five pin relays from NAPA simply because they fit and I've had no luck finding replacements at the other auto parts stores (The clerks can't find me a relay unless I specify which year/make/model of auto they come out of).  If anyone on here has a better (cheaper) replacement, it would be good info to know.  Also, I've been dating my replacement relays with whiteout when I replace them.  The last one I put in was about 18 months ago.