What's the deal with 10W60 motor oil

[ridingron]

I can't say much about Guzzi bikes as they're still kinda new to me. My air cooled Suzuki ran fine on 10/40 car oil but at about 1500 miles it started clattering indicating the viscosity was gone. I tried the Amsoil but the price was 4-5 time the other oils and didn't last 4-5 times as long. After 40K miles, I sold it to a guy I worked with. He sold it at 82K miles because the top end was making noise. I've run everything from the suggested oil, car oil, disel oil, and Amsoil in my ST. Also suggested filter, Fram MC filters to car oil filters. It uses less than a quart over 5000 miles. I think it could use the popcorn/corn oil/bacon grease mentioned above. I'm at a little over 200k miles with the motor totally stock with the 1996 factory parts. I get 40 MPG down a couple from the pre corn gas days. But none of that relevant 'cause it's not a Guzzi, it's a soulless, plain Jane, old Honda.

My California will be getting the Amsoil 20-50 and is using the non-Guzzi outsider filter system. Hope it holds up.

[kballowe]

Well it's January so let's throw another wrench in the gearworks.

This new bike (2V 100 Breva) actually has a spin-on oil filter. (gasp)

Any of you that have these - what filter do you use?

(it's OK to say Genuine OEM Moto Guzzi filter)   ;)

And, since we have everyone's attention -
Transmission oil:  AGIP ROTRA MP 80W90
Transmission oil: AGIP ROTRA MP/S 85W-90

Yes it says transmission twice.  I'm guessing that the second one is for the shaft drive?

Is everyone using these fluids?

And another thing - the maintenance schedule calls for changing the "external spark plugs" at 6,250 miles and every 12,500 miles after that.  Seems a bit soon?

Thanks

Kevin

[PeteT]

I can't say much about Guzzi bikes as they're still kinda new to me. My air cooled Suzuki ran fine on 10/40 car oil but at about 1500 miles it started clattering indicating the viscosity was gone. I tried the Amsoil but the price was 4-5 time the other oils and didn't last 4-5 times as long. After 40K miles, I sold it to a guy I worked with. He sold it at 82K miles because the top end was making noise. I've run everything from the suggested oil, car oil, disel oil, and Amsoil in my ST. Also suggested filter, Fram MC filters to car oil filters. It uses less than a quart over 5000 miles. I think it could use the popcorn/corn oil/bacon grease mentioned above. I'm at a little over 200k miles with the motor totally stock with the 1996 factory parts. I get 40 MPG down a couple from the pre corn gas days. But none of that relevant 'cause it's not a Guzzi, it's a soulless, plain Jane, old Honda.

My California will be getting the Amsoil 20-50 and is using the non-Guzzi outsider filter system. Hope it holds up.

Yep- some applications are less demanding on oil than others.  I've been using Castrol GTX car oil in everything since the early 1970's with complete success.  I don't push things very hard- maybe that's why I've gotten away with it for so long.  Nothing ever indicated that it was hurting for lack of lubrication... even the hot running stuff (a Yamaha TX500A comes to mind) showed no oil consumption and no deposits after 30,000+ miles.  Just a side note about the Yamaha;  I sold it to a friend at 35,000 miles who promptly changed over to Amsoil.  About a week later, as he was setting idling at a red light, the engine locked up.  The glue holding the filter element together had desolved, and the filter paper had plugged the oil line feeding the head.  Synthetic oils were something new in the mid 1970's, and apearently Yamaha haddn't taken this into consideration when they made the filter.

Time will tell with the Guzzi.  I'll be watching for the warning signs pretty closely after making the switch.

PeteT.

[old head]

Well it's January so let's throw another wrench in the gearworks.

This new bike (2V 100 Breva) actually has a spin-on oil filter. (gasp)

Any of you that have these - what filter do you use?

Mobil one, Purolator, or Wix.

(it's OK to say Genuine OEM Moto Guzzi filter)   ;)

And, since we have everyone's attention -
Transmission oil:  AGIP ROTRA MP 80W90
Transmission oil: AGIP ROTRA MP/S 85W-90

Been using Mobil 1, 85-90 wt in both,  Put 14o in the tranny, it better when hot, but a little stiff when cold

Yes it says transmission twice.  I'm guessing that the second one is for the shaft drive?

Is everyone using these fluids?

And another thing - the maintenance schedule calls for changing the "external spark plugs" at 6,250 miles and every 12,500 miles after that.  Seems a bit soon?

I check 'em when I check the valves, but I did replace at 5k, and then not again til 25K when I changed the inside ones also.  Both sets looked fine, but I still changed 'em.

Thanks

Kevin

[Chuck in Indiana]

Well it's January so let's throw another wrench in the gearworks.

This new bike (2V 100 Breva) actually has a spin-on oil filter. (gasp)

Any of you that have these - what filter do you use?

(it's OK to say Genuine OEM Moto Guzzi filter)   ;)

And, since we have everyone's attention -
Transmission oil:  AGIP ROTRA MP 80W90
Transmission oil: AGIP ROTRA MP/S 85W-90

Yes it says transmission twice.  I'm guessing that the second one is for the shaft drive?

Is everyone using these fluids?

And another thing - the maintenance schedule calls for changing the "external spark plugs" at 6,250 miles and every 12,500 miles after that.  Seems a bit soon?

Thanks

Kevin

I always said to use the oem filter until I had the Norge. It leaked. It was the first time I've ever had a Guzzi that I could tell if it was leaking or not. ;D I've been using the Bosch 3330 since. If you search hard enough, you'll find where Guzzi delivered bikes with it. Maybe still does?
Yeah, the second spec on transmission oil is the Carc. <shrug> Use good stuff in both.
Spark plugs are cheap.

[dilligaf]

I am going to sit in front of the TV, drink a beer and try to think of a useful contribution to this thread that doesn’t mention Wal-Mart.  Going to be hard, really hard.  ;D
Matt as he opened a Ranger IPA and headed for the den.  :BEER:
Matt

[kitze2]

PeteT,
I saw an old training film about the dangers of FOD.
It was, IIRC, a J57 in a test cell at full power. There was a remote arm thingy that tossed a nut (a castellated nut shown in the close up) into the intake. The slow-mo replay as the fan blades broke and it went out of balance were pretty impressive. The undulations of the whole motor as it came apart were way cool.

[PeteT]

PeteT,
I saw an old training film about the dangers of FOD.
It was, IIRC, a J57 in a test cell at full power. There was a remote arm thingy that tossed a nut (a castellated nut shown in the close up) into the intake. The slow-mo replay as the fan blades broke and it went out of balance were pretty impressive. The undulations of the whole motor as it came apart were way cool.

The engine manufactorers actually have to use a "chicken canon" during the certification testing.  The FAA requires (if I remember correctly) the engine to be able to take a hit from a 4 or 5 pound bird at 200 miles per hour at full power and be able to contain the shrapnel within the cases.  They actually shoot (already dead- though it wouldn't make much difference) chickens into the inlet while running at power in the test cell.

 The J57 went on to become the JT3D in civilian life, if I remember right.  These low bypass engines were fairly small in diameter, and could turn a lot faster than the larger, high bypass engines we have now without the tips going trans sonic.  The things really screamed- anything hard going through resulted in instant mechanical oblivion.  The newer, bigger engines turn a lot slower- the N1 RPM on the JT9D is only something like 3600-3700 RPM.  Usually, when the newer engines suck up a nut screw, or stray piece of safety wire at ground idle speeds, the resulting ding in the blade can be blended out with a small file.

I once got sent to Midland, Texas one night to change the C1 and C2 fans on a CFM56-3.  The field had a lot of high grass around it... which attracted lots of small birds and quail... which tended to also attract bigger birds that were feeding on the smaller birds.  Just after V1 The speed at which they begin to lift the nosewheel on takeoff- (about 140 MPH in this case), they took an owl down the intake of the #2 engine.  Dang thing must have stood at least knee high!  Out of 38 blades on the C1 (the fan you can see in the front of the engine), it managed to bend 29 of them.  The thing I thought was spectular though, was what I found under the accustic panels in front of the C1.  These panels form a ring around the intake, just in front of the first compressor, extanding about 8" forward of the fan, each segment being about 12" in circumference.  Each segment is fastened securely with six or eight 1/4" screws, and they fit together closely enough that you can't get a fingernail between them.  When I started removing them, there were feathers and owl-burger packed behind them.  A lot of feathers and owl-burger.  To this day, I can't explain how it got there for sure.

This thread has sure strayed from it's original subject matter! :o

PeteT.     

[Thunderbox]

I've been researching some used oil analysis on the AGIP 10W-60 today.  What I'm seeing is that it shears rather quickly to a 50 weight oil and in many cases - to a 40 weight.

Also read a response from a letter written to Amsoil Corporation.  They recommend their 20W-50 MCV in place of the 10W-60.

Still, another Guzzi site recommends that Castrol 20W-50 "works well in most any Moto Guzzi".

In MY owner's manual, AGIP products are recommended for everything.  
I suspect that MG used these products (or similar spec) during research and development and that is why they recommend them.  

I'll be using a PAO-based 20W-50 in mine.  Thankyouverymuch.

Do you have a copy of that correspondece from Amsoil.  I remember reading a response from Amsoil about using 20W50 in place of 10W60 and they said to use what the manufacturer said to use.  20W50 is a whole different animal than 10W60.  Not only is the oil a different viscosity at high temps it is way thicker at cold temps which could cause high presure problems in cold areas.  Considering the already high presures in the MG engines when cold it would probably mean the bypass is open allowing unfiltered oil to be circulated on cold start up.  Is that what a person wants?  I would think that is worse than the viscosity issue at higher temps.

It is funny that Amsoil does not have an oil recommendation for the BMWs that spec 10W60 here is the reference.

https://www.amsoil.com/mygarage/vehiclelookup.aspx?url2=2007+BMW+M5+1

[kballowe]

Do you have a copy of that correspondence from Amsoil.  I remember reading a response from Amsoil about using 20W50 in place of 10W60 and they said to use what the manufacturer said to use.  20W50 is a whole different animal than 10W60.  Not only is the oil a different viscosity at high temps it is way thicker at cold temps which could cause high pressure problems in cold areas.  Considering the already high pressures in the MG engines when cold it would probably mean the bypass is open allowing unfiltered oil to be circulated on cold start up.  Is that what a person wants?  I would think that is worse than the viscosity issue at higher temps.

I do not use Amsoil.  That letter was posted (I believe) on one of the Adventure Touring forums. 
I do not believe that 20W-50 is a whole different animal than 10W-60.  This may be true is some cases, but not all.  It's important to look at the manufacturer's viscosity and specification charts, at the very least.  Second, some amount of research is needed - and much of that research (in my mind) would be to read as many used oil analysis(s) on 20W-50 and 10W-60 oils that I could possibly find.  Third, one must have the oil analyzed on their particular bike.

The idea that unfiltered oil circulates at start- up - is a given.  Even with the 10W-60 oil.  However, if you ride in cold weather then this certainly is a consideration.

I've ordered some of that AGIP 10W-60 and (sooner or later) will get around to comparing it to my favorite 20W-50 (via oil analysis) and who knows?  Maybe we can all learn something.  It could happen.   ;)

[PeteT]

I do not use Amsoil.  That letter was posted (I believe) on one of the Adventure Touring forums. 
I do not believe that 20W-50 is a whole different animal than 10W-60.  This may be true is some cases, but not all.  It's important to look at the manufacturer's viscosity and specification charts, at the very least.  Second, some amount of research is needed - and much of that research (in my mind) would be to read as many used oil analysis(s) on 20W-50 and 10W-60 oils that I could possibly find.  Third, one must have the oil analyzed on their particular bike.

The idea that unfiltered oil circulates at start- up - is a given.  Even with the 10W-60 oil.  However, if you ride in cold weather then this certainly is a consideration.

I've ordered some of that AGIP 10W-60 and (sooner or later) will get around to comparing it to my favorite 20W-50 (via oil analysis) and who knows?  Maybe we can all learn something.  It could happen.   ;)

Oh my gosh- is that the Voice of Reason I hear?  Finally, we might get some actual data to work with, rather than gut feelings and brand loyalty.  I, for one am looking forward to your findings!

Isn't it amazing how much oil threads resemble discussions about religion and politics?  The common denominator seems to be blind faith and the necessity to selectively reject certain facts..... ;D.

PeteT.

[DanR]

10W60 4T full syn in any brand and the higher the ZDDP content the better end of story, can't believe every so often we go through this.

Thanks to the EPA the modern Guzzis run FREAKIN hot and the ZINC content in oil is way down.

I await further discourse.  

[Kev m]

Oh my gosh- is that the Voice of Reason I hear?  Finally, we might get some actual data to work with, rather than gut feelings and brand loyalty.  I, for one am looking forward to your findings!

Isn't it amazing how much oil threads resemble discussions about religion and politics?  The common denominator seems to be blind faith and the necessity to selectively reject certain facts..... ;D.

PeteT.

I'm happy to look at data.

I'm happy to discus this.

But PLEASE PUT THE INSULTING BULLSHIT AWAY - equating this to "blind faith" and using inuendos that suggest those who follow the factory spec are somehow not being "reasonable".

Those of us recommending the factory specs have actually put forth as much (or more) DATA points regarding engine temperatures, experiences with the oil pressure light etc than the opposition.

We've kept it civil so far, so no reason to turn it this by acting superior about your position.

[kballowe]

Ok I'm out of this one.  You boys please continue.

[Kev m]

Ok I'm out of this one.  You boys please continue.

No reason, most of us can keep it civil.

Feel free to post up oil analysis data as you get it, I'm sure everyone would like to see it.

[jones525]

On the Ducati link and referenced MCN test data is anyone sure that M1 15-50 still uses the same formulation as it did during that now dated test?

Don't get me wrong,  I've used that oil in various bikes in the past, but I'm not sold it's necessarily the best choice these days,  not for all my bikes.

Kev, here is the current product data sheet for M1 15w50

http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/NAUSENPVLMOMobil1_15W-50.aspx

The spec (API SJ & ACEA A3) for the M1 Auto oil meets all of the recomendations for my Duc and MV.

The JASO MA just has to deal with clutch slippage. The fact that the Auto 15w50 does not have an "Energy Conserving" label on the bottle means that the contents does not contain energy conserving friction reducing additives. This makes no difference to my Duc or to my potential new MG Griso

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorcycle_oil

Honestly tho, now that I have a US source for Agip i'd probably use it (Agip) in the Grizo as the aircooled engine may be more finicky...

[Kev m]

Jones,  I guess I was more asking if the zddp or other additive packages had changed since the MCN test. As I understand it a wide range of oils will meet the same API ratings but additives and performance on oil analysis may vary. So my question remains does the current formulation of M1 15-50 continue to perform as well under analysis?

[Jaxthedog]

Damn!  I remember the good ol' days, when I dropped the better part of a quart of Penz 30 weight into that little hole in the side of my Trail 90's motor and puttered off into the unknown for countless miles of what then seemed like adventure.  Ha Ha!

[Sack]

Damn!  I remember the good ol' days, when I dropped the better part of a quart of Penz 30 weight into that little hole in the side of my Trail 90's motor and puttered off into the unknown for countless miles of what then seemed like adventure.  Ha Ha!

It was adventure. My first bike, a CT200 (Trail 90) took me everywhere even though at 11 years old I really didn't know much about maintenance. Lubed the chain once in a while, can't remember doing an oil change but I know I checked it now and then. Nothing seemed to be able to stop it, especially with the large overlay sprocket bolted on.

[Vasco DG]

And a small '60's Honda produced what? 40HP/Litre? A modern Guzzi twin is producing between 90-115HP at the crank from 1170 or whatever CC's.

Which one is going to be asking more from its oil?

Just askin'.......

VDG

[rocker59]

Jones,  I guess I was more asking if the zddp or other additive packages had changed since the MCN test. As I understand it a wide range of oils will meet the same API ratings but additives and performance on oil analysis may vary. So my question remains does the current formulation of M1 15-50 continue to perform as well under analysis?

The "grey cap" 15w50 M1 is still recommended for use in older solid lifter engines by Mobil.

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Oils/Mobil_1_15W-50.aspx

"Mobil 1 15W-50 is recommended for older valve train designs that may benefit from a higher level of anti-wear normally not required in newer generation vehicles."

[Lank]

"""Thanks to the EPA the modern Guzzis run FREAKIN hot and the ZINC content in oil is way down."""

Does your Guzzi run hot??   I would say that mine is the coolest bike I have used lately.  Never gets near hot even in slow and go.  I have removed the cat and open the air and exhaust, that probably helps.  While they don't have a temp gauge I suspect I could detect excessive heat and never have.  My BMW would get a couple of bars above normal even water cooled bikes I have creep to the upper end of the scale at times, the Guzzi is always cool.  And it got 51 mpg yesterday on a 400 mile run so I know its getting hot enough.  With my knees an inch from the valve covers I would think I would know when its warm..sorry temp gauge but thats what they come with.

[Thunderbox]

And a small '60's Honda produced what? 40HP/Litre? A modern Guzzi twin is producing between 90-115HP at the crank from 1170 or whatever CC's.

Which one is going to be asking more from its oil?

Just askin'.......

VDG

But remember engines only produce those HP figure if you ride them at very high RPMs with full throttle.  I doubt that is the case with 99% of bikes.  Yes you will rev it up on occassion but it doesn't have to sustain that output for any length of time.  Liter bikes put out 200 hp but again not for any length of time unless you are racing. 

I asked a chemist at Petro Canada about ZDDP levels and what has been done to make oils better.  He say the ZDDP is not the same as it used to be and is much better now requiring less than before.  Seeing how long engines last these days I have to believe him.

[DanR]

"""Thanks to the EPA the modern Guzzis run FREAKIN hot and the ZINC content in oil is way down."""

Does your Guzzi run hot??   I would say that mine is the coolest bike I have used lately.  Never gets near hot even in slow and go.  I have removed the cat and open the air and exhaust, that probably helps.  While they don't have a temp gauge I suspect I could detect excessive heat and never have.  My BMW would get a couple of bars above normal even water cooled bikes I have creep to the upper end of the scale at times, the Guzzi is always cool.  And it got 51 mpg yesterday on a 400 mile run so I know its getting hot enough.  With my knees an inch from the valve covers I would think I would know when its warm..sorry temp gauge but that's what they come with.

Well Bingo, I certainly know how to circumvent the EPA as well.  ;D

The modern Big Block Guzzi is OIL and Air Cooled to counter the mandated tougher EPA and EURO standards. That is accomplished by the Engineers via Catalytic converters which adds to higher temps and leaner Air Fuel mixtures. The oil used is very critical especially the 8V motor, as mentioned before there are tiny oil orifices in and around the valve train to cool the valve train and head. These are not simply return gallery's or for want of a better word oil oozing ports for lubrication. These orifices supply a pressure stream of oil supplied by a separate high pressure oil pump to accomplish lubrication AND COOLING. Here's my layman's thoughts about using any thing but the Engineers recommend viscosity and additive package that the 4t 10w60 Full SYN contains. Think of those tiny oil orifices getting plugged up by oil that has been broken down do to high heat that it wasn't meant withstand ?  So here's where I will piss some people off and probably add to my ignore list. ~; You want to trust your 5-6000 dollar engine to good ole Castrol GTX 20w50 be my guest. My old 850T and SP1000 thrived on it, my 8V Griso will die from it.     

[vibr8r]

I bought my hydro from the original owner.  He used the dealer for all the oil changes.  Upon examining the records, the dealer had been changing the oil with 10w60 and 20w50 until I bought the bike.  Guzzi recommends 5w40, and it says so on the tank.  Guzzi says they recommend 5w40 strictly because the valve gear on the hydro is different.   

What about the rest of the engine?  If Guzzi hasn't used different parts or tolerances in the rest of the engine, then the 5w40 is a compromise, and the rest of the engine should be getting 10w60.
 
I'll take butter, please.   

[Kev m]

I bought my hydro from the original owner.  He used the dealer for all the oil changes.  Upon examining the records, the dealer had been changing the oil with 10w60 and 20w50 until I bought the bike.  Guzzi recommends 5w40, and it says so on the tank.  Guzzi says they recommend 5w40 strictly because the valve gear on the hydro is different.   

What about the rest of the engine?  If Guzzi hasn't used different parts or tolerances in the rest of the engine, then the 5w40 is a compromise, and the rest of the engine should be getting 10w60.

Not Necessarily.

AGAIN - remember that needs are going to vary with state of tune (which will be different on the hydros due to different cams).

Not to mention the spec on the mechanical lifter Cali's is 10W-60 OR 20W-50 so the factory engineers are allowing for more leeway on the Cali's than on the Carcs in the first place.

[jackson]

The original owners manual that came with my Breva 750 called for 5W40 but an updated version was issued later in pdf format and the specification was changed to 10W60.  I dumped the 5W40 and put in 10W60. The engineers at Moto Guzzi apparently determined that the 10W60 did a better job than the 5W40 so who am I to question their recommendation?  If they didn't think that it perform better, they wouldn't have changed the spec.

[vibr8r]

Not Necessarily.

AGAIN - remember that needs are going to vary with state of tune (which will be different on the hydros due to different cams).

Not to mention the spec on the mechanical lifter Cali's is 10W-60 OR 20W-50 so the factory engineers are allowing for more leeway on the Cali's than on the Carcs in the first place.

I doubt the extra 2hp has anything to do with it.  Perhaps Guzzi recommends 20w50 or 10w60 for the mechanical tappet Cali's because without it, their valve train may suffer.  Yeah, I think that's it.

[the Bailey]

youre completely missing the point ( and im surprised kev hasn;t jumped in.  tho you are baiting him a bit )
while i agree with your original post, and that the hydros could probably use a 50 or 60 wt especially if you live in the south where it hits 100 +    the hydro part of it ( and this is important ) requires the 5w. a 10w would be risky, and a 20w just plain foolish.  so until they start making a 5w-60, i'd stick with the 5w-40 that is recommended for the hydros

[rocker59]

...the hydros could probably use a 50 or 60 wt especially if you live in the south where it hits 100 +    the hydro part of it ( and this is important ) requires the 5w. a 10w would be risky, and a 20w just plain foolish.  so until they start making a 5w-60, i'd stick with the 5w-40 that is recommended for the hydros

 :+1

 ;-T