The New Indian Chief Thunder Stroke 111 merged threadfest

[youcanrunnaked]

I'll make one point about Harley vs the (new) Indian (PolarIndain LMAO).  

It took Harley 4 years (record time for Harley) to update their existing models to the "Rushmore" design.  This is their fast turn around, market-oriented evolutionary (evo?) approach that produced water cooled the Harleys.  

Polaris designed & produced the new Indian from the ground up in 3 years.

That's why it was called "Project Rushmore."  Harley-Davidson might have been able to revamp their line-up in less time, but management asked, "Why should we rush more?"

[Lannis]

Always easier to toss out a flippant criticism of someone's remarks than to respond thoughtfully.

True.   I'm not sure who's supposed to be ranting and trolling in this thread ... ?

I hope it's not whoever is taking the position that these "Indians" look pretty much like Harleys, or any of the Harley jap-a-clones ... Big fat cruisers with a ton of sheet metal, trading on the "Lifestyle" and the past, with standard Harley type V-twin engines that despite whatever internal design differences they might have still share a lot of DNA with a Harley, and none with the old flathead, hand-shift Indians.  

I've owned 35 motorcycles including 3 Harleys and an Indian, and if a crowd of these bikes rode past mixed in with Harleys and the corresponding Yamahonduki copies, I probably wouldn't be able to spot the difference ...

Dangerous to say that amidst the roiling crowd of fanboys, but I'm used to it ...  ;-T

Lannis

[youcanrunnaked]

I guess both of you guys missed KevM's detailed and thoughtful summary of the key features that differentiate the new Indians from the current Harleys?  Oh, right, if you're a born contrarian, no use trying to confuse you with facts....

[Lannis]

PROGRAMS HERE , GET YER PROGRAMS HERE ! Hey Lannis , is it OK to rant and troll ? ;D
Dusty

You make the call ... reading the responses, I wasn't sure WHO was ranting and trolling!   Usually it's the person with the "dissenting opinion" ....

Lannis

[Lannis]

I guess both of you guys missed KevM's detailed and thoughtful summary of the key features that differentiate the new Indians from the current Harleys?  Oh, right, if you're a born contrarian, no use trying to confuse you with facts....

Not denying any FACTS about crankpin angles or internal engine configurations or external details.   Just saying that, in my opinion, it makes no difference in the perception, visual feel, or the potential market for the bike.   And those ARE opinions, and are just as valid as anyone elses.

Lannis

[youcanrunnaked]

Visual feel?   ???

Trying to wrap my head around that one, but... all I get is a sour taste in my ear....
 ;D

[LowRyter]

That's why it was called "Project Rushmore."  Harley-Davidson might have been able to revamp their line-up in less time, but management asked, "Why should we rush more?"

so rush-more is an oxymoron. 

[Kev m]

Not denying any FACTS about crankpin angles or internal engine configurations or external details.   Just saying that, in my opinion, it makes no difference in the perception, visual feel, or the potential market for the bike.

So any transverse crankshaft v-twin is a Harley copy now? Ok, noted. :D

[Lannis]

So any transverse crankshaft v-twin is a Harley copy now? Ok, noted. :D

Did I say that?  Did I?  I think you just made that up ....  :D

[Triple Jim]

IT's NOT A shared crankpin

Kevin, the photos I've seen of the Indian crank depict a single crank pin.  Are you referring to the forked design of the Harley, so the two cylinders are exactly in line?

[Kev m]

Kevin, the photos I've seen of the Indian crank depict a single crank pin.  Are you referring to the forked design of the Harley, so the two cylinders are exactly in line?

Yes, my bad....

[Andrew Thomas Evans]

Finally had a chance to see them in person last weekend at a dealer west of town. Didn't take them out for a ride or anything like that, but gave them a good look over.

They are a pretty big bike, look well made, the styling looks a lot better in person, and we were really impressed. Money would be an issue with me, and if I get anything for 20-25k it's going to be a old 911, so not in the market for a while. But, if I was looking and wanted a larger bike (harley, victory, etc) then this would be in the running.

Also, the Victory line looks pretty good in person. Again, not in the market for one, but if I was they would be something I'd consider.

 ;-T


As far as them vs guzzi, I don't think they are really in the same class/league. The cali 1400 seems a lot smaller, and is maybe more on the sporting end of the deal, where as the Indian seems more of a cruiser and straight line power type of bike (like the HD market). I'm sure either would do just fine with regular driving, and the rest is up to style and looks.

[youcanrunnaked]

Reviving this to add some notes about the recent comparison test by Cycle World of the California 1400 Custom vs. Harley-Davidson Softail Deluxe vs. Indian Chief Classic.

http://www.cycleworld.com/2014/02/19/harley-davidson-softail-deluxe-vs-indian-chief-classic-vs-moto-guzzi-california-1400-custom-comparison-test/

SPECIFICATIONS

                        Harley-Davidson Softail Deluxe   Indian Chief Classic   Moto Guzzi California 1400 Custom
PRICE                                   $19,759                          $19,499                            $14,990
DRY WEIGHT                     709 lb.                            780 lb.                              681 lb.
WHEELBASE                            64.5 in.                           68.7 in.                             66.9 in.
SEAT HEIGHT                    26.1 in.                           28.4 in.                             29.3 in.
FUEL MILEAGE                    40 mpg                           36 mpg                             35 mpg
0-60 MPH                           4.6 sec.                          4.5 sec.                            3.7 sec.
1/4 MILE                 13.34 sec. @ 98.49 mph        13.20 sec. @ 98.46 mph          12.54 sec. @ 105.21 mph
HORSEPOWER             71.0 hp @ 5230 rpm            75.9 hp @ 4300 rpm              84.6 hp @ 6180 rpm
TORQUE                87.3 lb.-ft. @ 3070 rpm      105.3 lb.-ft. @ 2850 rpm         78.6 lb.-ft. @ 2820 rpm
TOP SPEED                           113 mph                          114 mph                            125 mph

[bad Chad]

Both American bikes are way slower, one is a 100Lb heavier, neither can stop anywhere near as well, and the nearest in price will eat up an additional $4600, yet they pick the Indian as the best???

[Kev m]

Both American bikes are way slower, one is a 100Lb heavier, neither can stop anywhere near as well,

Hold up a second, "way slower"?

I disagree, almost a second may mean something on a drag strip, but it generally means jack dyke to how these bikes are ridden.

And I see no stats on braking, though I suspect that Harley would be horrible comparatively since the others have dual Brembos.

I find it interesting that the Indian has more lean angle than the Cali, and they noted how stiff the Indian chassis was.

As for a winner, that's subjective.

Ever watch Top Gear, they almost always pick the "worst"car statistically as they one they would own.

[Triple Jim]

Ever watch Top Gear, they almost always pick the "worst"car statistically as they one they would own.

Unless it's a Robin Reliant.   :D

[LowRyter]

thanks YCRN-

confirms what I felt when I rode them.  The Cal 14 is much sportier ride!

[Kev m]

thanks YCRN-

confirms what I felt when I rode them.  The Cal 14 is much sportier ride!

Unless you're talking about handling/lean angle, chassis stiffness, or possibly brakes...but hey, I guess drag races are "sporty too".

Sounds like measurement with a yard stick again...when a micrometer would do.

[Kev m]

Hold up a second, "way slower"?

I disagree, almost a second may mean something on a drag strip, but it generally means jack dyke to how these bikes are ridden.

And I see no stats on braking, though I suspect that Harley would be horrible comparatively since the others have dual Brembos.

I find it interesting that the Indian has more lean angle than the Cali, and they noted how stiff the Indian chassis was.

As for a winner, that's subjective.

Ever watch Top Gear, they almost always pick the "worst"car statistically as they one they would own.

It's also interesting to note that MCN (M Consumer News) only managed a 13.3 with the Cali Custom, meaning a dead heat with the Harley and a tenth slower than the Indian.

So again, performance differences are probably much ado about nothing.

[youcanrunnaked]

Performance is not just straight-line acceleration.  Performance is the total dynamic package -- How does the bike function going down the road?  In addition to the specifications that I transcribed, the CW article notes that the Moto Guzzi has the best combination of ride, handling and comfort, steers and brakes the quickest, is the only one with traction control (and ride modes), and weighs the least by more than 60 lbs.  It is, by every objective and subjective measure, the best-performing bike of the bunch.  That is without taking the $4K+ price difference into account.

That the Indian won can be attributed to one or two (or maybe three) things:

1.  The Indian is newer, so it's "newness" won out over the more familiar Guzzi.
2.  Polaris deserves a boost for preserving the Indian brand; besides, Guzzi had its day when the Cali 1400 won Cruiser of the Year for 2013.
3.  Polaris is going to spend big advertising dollars on promoting its brands within the pages and web site of Cycle World; Moto Guzzi -- not so much.

[Triple Jim]

#3 is a big one.  It's amazing how closely advertizing dollars are connected to articles and reviews with many/most magazines.

[Kev m]

Performance is not just straight-line acceleration.  Performance is the total dynamic package -- How does the bike function going down the road?  In addition to the specifications that I transcribed, the CW article notes that the Moto Guzzi has the best combination of ride, handling and comfort, steers and brakes the quickest, is the only one with traction control (and ride modes), and weighs the least by more than 60 lbs.  It is, by every objective and subjective measure, the best-performing bike of the bunch.  That is without taking the $4K+ price difference into account.

The Chief is the heaviest (99 pounds heavier than the Guzzi) and has the longest wheelbase of the bunch (68.7 inches by our measure) but is also, by far, the most luxurious to ride.

All three bikes do an admirable job damping engine vibration, especially at lower revs, where these bikes deliver ample torque. Guest tester Ryan Orr said the Guzzi was so smooth it reminded him of an electric bike. But once the Softail and California are wound up, vibration finds its way through the bars and floorboards, while the Chief remains surreally smooth from the bottom to the top of its generous powerband.

Also not surprising, the Guzzi offers plenty of cornering clearance, but in an extraordinary twist, it turns out that the Indian actually offers the best clearance value among these three bikes. And, actually, it’s the best of any traditionally styled, floorboard-equipped cruiser we’ve ever tested.

And when you’re heeled over on the big Chief, it’ll also hold a wonderfully dedicated line. Steering feel is solid and weighty but not ponderous. Extremely predictable. The two testers who hadn’t experienced the “behemoth” in the twisties were blown right out of the water. From Conner’s notes: “I’m totally surprised how well the Indian handles despite that exceptionally long wheelbase.” To Orr’s: “Cornering this beast was no problem, thanks to nice suspension action and all that clearance.”

But at the end of the day doesn’t it come down to power and money? All of these bikes are fast—certainly powerful enough to quicken the pulse. And interestingly, the Guzzi’s 1,380cc V-twin is pumping out almost 10 more top-end ponies than the Indian’s 1,819cc Thunder Stroke 111, which, of course, squashes everything in sight when it comes to torque. And, oh yeah, that’s including the Harley. Let’s just say that if the Thunderstroke 111 were arm wrestling Harley’s 1,690cc Twin Cam 103, the Indian would put Harley’s hand right through the table.

The Guzzi, meanwhile, charmed us enough last year to take Best Cruiser in Ten Best voting and undisputedly carries on as one of the most soulful, sporty, and value-priced cruisers of all time. But the Chief out-torques them both and, while not as agile as the Guzzi, can lean just that much farther.

It seems to me that the Indian "won" because PERFORMANCE is SUBJECTIVE if you're not on the race track.

And it seems to me that although there's no doubt the Guzzi is more "sporty" the Indian isn't that far behind, which is really the point I've tried to make for months... that they are "comparable" where they are going to be used (the street).

Look, pointing out the relative strengths of the Indian (or even the Harley) isn't damning the Guzzi....

[segesta]

#3 is a big one.  It's amazing how closely advertizing dollars are connected to articles and reviews with many/most magazines.

I'm shocked--shocked!--at the possibility that BMW advertising in Car & Driver magazine might have an influence on their choice of BMW as the winner of every single car comparison article in the last 40 years.

[Triple Jim]

Yeah, a couple decades ago, I was trying to market an automatic speed control system for tournament water ski towboats that I had designed and built, and representatives of a major water ski magazine came right out and told me that if I were to take out some expensive ads, they'd be happy to write an article about my product.  I declined, partly because I couldn't afford the ads.

[redrider90]

And they failed to do a real spirited riding test.  The Cali would have smoked these two in spirited riding. It is sportier and faster and a full 100#s lighter than the Indian.  How can they say the Indian has more lean angle and that makes up for it being less sportier than the Cali? So it takes you longer to get to that lean angle and you have less power coming out to the curves but a bit more lean angle.  The top speed and faster 1/4 and sportier ride means Guzzi  walks away from both of Indian and HD in the twisties and what about lugging that 800# with the long wheel base Indian around the city?  Even some Guzzitis have complained the 1400 is just a bit large for city use. So I see the Indian as big fail there.  I do not see Guzzi loosing any sales to the Indian cause if someone is going to drop $4K more on a slower heavier poorer handling bike then they want it for styling and "heritage" and profiling.  I see it taking a chunk out of HD sales a big chunk.

[Kev m]

And they failed to do a real spirited riding test.  The Cali would have smoked these two in spirited riding. It is sportier and faster and a full 100#s lighter than the Indian.  How can they say the Indian has more lean angle and that makes up for it being less sportier than the Cali? So it takes you longer to get to that lean angle and you have less power coming out to the curves but a bit more lean angle.  The top speed and faster 1/4 and sportier ride means Guzzi  walks away from both of Indian and HD in the twisties

BECAUSE 99% of buyers of ANY of those three bikes don't CARE about that, they're not gonna be racing twisties.

If they were there are about 50-100 other current model year bikes they could buy that would be better than all three buy a significant margin...

WAY MORE than the rch that the Guzzi squeaks out in this comparison.

[LowRyter]

And they failed to do a real spirited riding test.  The Cali would have smoked these two in spirited riding. It is sportier and faster and a full 100#s lighter than the Indian.  How can they say the Indian has more lean angle and that makes up for it being less sportier than the Cali? So it takes you longer to get to that lean angle and you have less power coming out to the curves but a bit more lean angle.  The top speed and faster 1/4 and sportier ride means Guzzi  walks away from both of Indian and HD in the twisties and what about lugging that 800# with the long wheel base Indian around the city?  Even some Guzzitis have complained the 1400 is just a bit large for city use. So I see the Indian as big fail there.  I do not see Guzzi loosing any sales to the Indian cause if someone is going to drop $4K more on a slower heavier poorer handling bike then they want it for styling and "heritage" and profiling.  I see it taking a chunk out of HD sales a big chunk.

  once you ride them, it's no contest  :bike

[rocker59]

BECAUSE 99% of buyers of ANY of those three bikes don't CARE about that, they're not gonna be racing twisties.

If they were there are about 50-100 other current model year bikes they could buy that would be better than all three buy a significant margin...

WAY MORE than the rch that the Guzzi squeaks out in this comparison.

I do wish they'd time 'em around Streets of Willow, though, to give an idea of handling.

They do run 'em through the quarter.  Streets of Willow would be an easy deal.

[Kev m]

  once you ride them, it's no contest  :bike

Not really, not since I rode them...

[oldbike54]

I do wish they'd time 'em around Streets of Willow, though, to give an idea of handling.

They do run 'em through the quarter.  Streets of Willow would be an easy deal.

Yeah that would be cool . Compare lap times . Of course most potential buyers have no idea what the streets of willow are . As opposed to the famous willow loop in the Texas hill country where the average speed is what 35 mph ?
Dusty


Sent from a submarine in Oklahoma .