Another 8V Cam Failure

[pbeesley]

Took my bike in for a new rear tyre today and my dealer (Haywards) tells me that the cams have failed on my 2012 Sport at just 5700 miles. The left head has a very loud metallic clatter that sounds bad. I can't think of any particular reason why the cams would go so soon - the 600 mile service was performed and has a dealer stamp and I kept the oil level in check with 10w60. I was just getting ready to do the 6000 mile service and now this! Anything in particular that I need to check when the repair is done (by the dealer). Is it standard procedure to replace the flat tappets with rollers during the process?

Edit: Motor is an A7, no. 011974

[mickyvee]

 :-\ My 2013 Sport has had a few issues, but none of them were mechanical. My 08 Griso ate its cams, so I know how you feel. My dealer tells me that my Sport has the roller tappets, so I hope that is a more robust system. Who knows? It's early days yet. Guzzis eh. Never a dull moment!

[mickyvee]

 ??? A7 012236 is my number. Not too far away from yours. I think I'll call the tech who serviced it and ask whether it has rollers or not.

[pbeesley]

I've been keeping an eye on the problems you've had with your Sport, hopefully they're all sorted now. I'm not sure when the roller tappets came in but your bike has a good chance of having them fitted. I've never looked inside the heads on mine but the tappets were never very noisy which made me wonder if it was fitted with rollers. Then again, I'm not sure there's been a reported cam failure on the roller-equipped bikes so perhaps that rules it out.

[mickyvee]

 ??? The factory appears to be pretty vague as regards when the roller tappets were introduced. I am still going to ask the tech at my dealer. Honestly, they should have sorted this problem out by now, they've had 6 years to do it in. It's a bit like the VF Honda debacle back in the 80's, except that the big H fixed it for good. Owning a Honda, however dull, sometimes seems like a very sensible option.

[pauldaytona]

as roller tappets need another cam profile, a cam has to be made for that, And since the 1200sport has a different cam then any other 8v, it has to be made for the 1200 sport, and I don't see it in the parts lists. So I suppose all 1200 sport have the old tapets, and no rollers. 

[mickyvee]

 ??? A different cam? I thought all the 8v engines were the same! Anyway, I'm not going to lose any sleep over it!

[Vasco DG]

While outwardly identical there were changes to cam profiles on a couple of later flat-tappet models. Off the top of my head Sport 1200, Norge 8V and the 'Big Tank' Stelvios all use different profiles to the earlier bikes.

As Paul says the roller tappet set-up is a completely different kettle of bananas, basically nothing in the camboxes is interchangeable. Swapping from flats to rollers is an expensive and complicated business.

Pete

[mickyvee]

 :) My old 8v Griso is running strongly, some 20,000 miles after the new top end was installed. If my Sport's cams go pear shaped, I am confident that the fix will be permanent. It's all a long way from my bulletproof LeMans! Thank heaven for 2 year warranties! However, my next Guzzi may very well be a small block, unless the factory come up with a truly robust and dependable big block engine. On the other hand, there is a good chance that my engine will just get better with mileage, as it should be with a Guzzi. Time will tell............... ................!

[pbeesley]

That's good to hear. My main concern is where the metal from the cams and tappets ends up. I'm sure Haywards will do a good job fixing it up but what sort of damage can result?

[pauldaytona]

WEll I was missing 1 mm from the tappets, and I took pump off, nothing to see, I took oil pan off, clean, so I think what comes off is so small, it ends in the filter.

[Vasco DG]

In my experience,which has been limited to bikes that have failed after being 'Serviced' elsewhere the oil pumps end up scored and the majority of the debris accumulates in the banjos and input side of the oil cooler. The cooler circuit is only strained, not filtered.

Haywards are smart cookies and have seen many of these by now. I would imagine they can fix 'em in their sleep with one hand tied behind their backs.

I still have no idea why the majority of the failures seem to occur where they do? They are extremely rare in Oz nowadays and the cause of failure is usually fairly easily identified.

Pete

[dddd]

This is extremely worrying, I was of the understanding that the cam failures was limited to early 8V motors. It would appear that not only do I have to contend with my 2000 rpm idle problem (that seems incurable) on my 2012 Norge but now also keep listening for unusual top end noises
I must say I have just about given up, its hard to enjoy the ride if you are constantly worried about the bike failing you when you're out the middle of nowhere

[Vasco DG]

MSG removed. Not worth the cracker.

[dddd]

MSG removed. Not worth the cracker.

Just for the dummies Peter, what does that mean ??

[Vasco DG]

Don't worry about it. See you tomorrow.

[pauldaytona]

This is extremely worrying, I was of the understanding that the cam failures was limited to early 8V motors. It would appear that not only do I have to contend with my 2000 rpm idle problem (that seems incurable) on my 2012 Norge but now also keep listening for unusual top end noises
I must say I have just about given up, its hard to enjoy the ride if you are constantly worried about the bike failing you when you're out the middle of nowhere

CAM failure won't let you stranded, you can easy do 600 miles with it. 

[Vasco DG]

It won't do the motor any good though.

There was some other Nong who posted some rant about his Norge being on its forth set of cams in some very small number of miles in Oz on Guzzitech. I asked about it and nothing more was forthcoming. Seems if you try to help people all it does is make you the villain. I'm just over it. Sorry.

Pete

[molly]

The GB owners club did an excellent job of getting Piaggio in the U.K. to publicly deal with the cam failure issue. At the time I believe very few 8V Sports were sold and did not feature much in the owners survey the club organised.
I am still not sure what exactly the ultimate fix for the effected bikes was. To start with dealers replaced like for like hence repeat failures and since then it seems to have gone quite on the issue. Is this because everyone is now happy with their repairs?
Are bikes being sold knowing that at some stage the cams could fail and which engine numbers are free of any potential problem? I'm not really sure. There has been nothing in the owners magazine that I have read since Piaggio's response to the original owners survey.
There are two 1200 8V Sports which  have been sitting in the Twiggers showroom in Loughborough for a couple of years and have now been heavily discounted. I would normally have been interested in one of them at the price Twiggers want. But, and it is a very big but I wouldn't touch them with  someone else's barge pole. I would rather order one from the factory and then I would still want it in writing that the engine is to a spec that solves the cam failure issues.
I know that all sounds a bit dramatic but if I somenone who as had two 2v CARC models recently is still unsure about the 8V engine then something is not right.

[Vasco DG]

There may be an 'issue'. Thing is that I can't find it. The fact that those that do encounter it seem to just shrug and replace bits with them seemingly inevitably failing again simply shits me to tears! Why is it that I've never had a failure? Why is it seemingly market specific? Most of all why is it that nobody, at any level, seems to be interested in actually isolating what is causing these failures.

Bollocks!

Pete

[pauldaytona]

I don't want to start the whole discussion all over we had so many times.
In France there is someone from a forum busy with legal action against Piaggio.
http://perso.ovh.net/~webemoi/guzzi/viewtopic.php?t=11903&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
In Italy the Stelvio forum is trying to arrange something with Piaggio, calling it "class action" from a list of 40 forum members with problems.
http://www.guzzistelvio.net/sito/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=7788
Need login for it.

So each on it's own, so each time Piaggio does like there isn't a problem. And Piaggio is the only one who can really see how big it is, because they can see how many cams and tappets they sell.
What is really needed, is that Piaggio, worldwide declares that all failures out of warranty are solved without problems for clients.
What they don't seem to get is the amount of negative impact in trust this has on owners and prospective buyers.
And don't think only first are affected, I know of 2011 AC engine big tank Stelvios that had it. (what is us is 2012 model)  

[molly]

I think it would have been advisable for Piaggio to explain exactly what has caused the problem and then detail the resulting fix with recalls if required.
But I bet they are edging their bets hoping to fix only the ones that are presented at dealers on a ad-hoc basis to keep the costs down.
Speaking to people in the trade Piaggio's fine words about the money and effort they were going to put into the Guzzi brand have not materialised and the same old issues such as  dealer support and  spares availability at Italian holiday time are still there.
A couple of months ago only one Cali 1400 had been sold in the U.K. so maybe Piaggio's lack of interest is bearing fruit.

[father guzzi obrian]

There was a moto guzzi mechanic that collected data on these failrues. mostly UK where it is often wet and cold conditions combined with shorter riding periods did not let the moisture burn off, creating issues with the system.  They seem to be isolated to colder, we climates where folks dont ride 200 miles at a whack....

[Vasco DG]

I wouldn't waste yer breath Jon. The haters just wanna hate.

Pete

[molly]

I certainly don't hate anything or anyone and that more than applies to Guzzi but don't you think it is only fair to tell things as they are?  
I recently recommended a 1200 Sport to a very good friend (albeit a 2 valve) who would never normally consider a Guzzi. I did this with a clear conscience and  have also continually promoted the brand to anyone that will listen.
All bike manufacturers have problems and in this day and age news travels fast, mostly by people who do not hate but want to help fellow bikers solve or avoid problems and of course hold manufacturers to their obligations.
I do think there will always be a slight clash of interests on this type of forum between punters and dealers who rightly don't want their business to suffer by unwarranted comments but that's the nature of free speech I'm afraid.
I hope Piaggio/Guzzi nail the camshaft issue down once and for all so I can put that 1200 8v Sport in my garage before too much longer.

[Rough Edge racing]

 About 10 years ago the high performance car guys starting experiencing camshaft failures.This was on flat tappet engines. Roller cams were not affected. The Gov't petitioned the lube oil makers to reduce the  ZDDP additive because it fouls catalytic converters.After awhile people  caught on and used oils still having high ZDDP (zinc /phosphorous) additive levels. Motorcycle oils usually  contain proper levels of ZDDP,but who knows.....And this Guzzi problem may just be  a quality control issue.
  If the cam lobes wear down and you care about the engine.....It should be stripped to the bare block and cleaned out. The metal particles will be embedded in the bearings so they need to be replaced. I know,I've been there...

[Vasco DG]

Uckily the mains and cam bearings, which are the ones critical on the lubrication side, seem to be adequately protected by the filter, especially if people stop using the machine as soon as it starts to make odd noises, (It unfortunately seems that many people ride on until the cams are totally destroyed! Why? I have no idea! Its bizarre!). This is just as well as the front main is integral to the crankcase and not available as a separate part!

Where the crap does end up is, as I said, in the cooling circuit and particularly in the oil cooler and banjos. Guzzis 'Sollution' of simply replacing the broken bits and flushing the engine is a joke! Both the oil pumps commonly suffer and despite Paul's experience the sump, strainers and cooling circuit are frequently damaged and full of bits of tappet. Removing and back-flushing the cooler and lines along with blowing out all the galleries and inspecting the pumps is common sense and time saving in the long run as if it isn't done further failures are almost inevitable.

Pete

[pauldaytona]

This winter i will open up my heads 10.000km after the failure to see how it's going on.

[molly]

Apparently somebody from the GB owners club has been in contact with the factory and posted this on the owners forum:

The timing system of the Guzzi 1200 8V engine had significant problems with cams and tappets grinding themselves down.

Moto Guzzi never came officially clear about this problem but towards the end of 2012, started to replace the timing system using tappet cam followers with another one using instead roller cam followers. This timing system is now also used on the new California 1400cc

Today if you buy a new Moto Guzzi with 8V engine should have the timing system with roller cam followers

This definitely applies to the new California 1400cc, the Norge, the Stelvio, the Griso.

The 1200 Sport 8V, already discontinued in Italy from this year but still available in UK, France, Holland, Germany, Japan, Switzerland, Belgium, etc, is sold with ABS included but still with the old infamous timing system, the one with tappets instead of roller cam followers!

Moto Guzzi has been asked about it via the contact form on the Guzzi web site and they answered that could not put the roller cam followers on the 1200 Sport as it is a different bike from Norge, Griso, Stelvio, it’s a sporty bike.  

It was pointed out to them that on the Griso they have put roller cam followers, and that certainly is not a touring bike, between 1200 Sport and Griso 8V, it is actually the Griso the sportier bike.
The 1200 Sport is a Breva with a sporty look!
Moto Guzzi replied that the 1200 Sport has the latest update for the cam/tappets system released in 2012.

Then the question was why this latest update for the cam/tappets system could not be good enough for Norge, Griso, Stelvio, California as well, Moto Guzzi replied that the new timing version with roller cam followers could not be put on the 1200 Sport 8V , because it is a different engine.  

Eventually the final question was if this "latest update for the cam/tappets system released in 2012" was finally reliable or they were just getting rid of the old timing system stock putting it on the 1200 Sport, a bike already discontinued in Italy and probably soon in the other countries too.
Moto Guzzi replied that each new Guzzi bike is sold with 2 years warranty and from this year the customer can also purchase an extension of the warranty for the third year or even for the fourth year.


and a bit later on the same topic.



If you will have problems on your Griso cam shaft and tappets, basically your timing system, Moto Guzzi will cover for it although the warranty of 2 years warranty clearly expired.
That's what Moto Guzzi declared when this problem was getting epidemic.

I am not sure if they will do it even with a new bike bought now as from 2013 they suggest to buy the extended warranty for the third or even fourth year!

Will your Griso have the problem ?
Difficult to say it, let's put it in this way, there are statistics of 1200 8V Guzzi engines having timing system problems apparently still built in 2010 and maybe some in built in 2011.
of course newer engines will be more likely to have run less miles until now, so statistics might change.
Yours was made in 2009, quite a few 1200 8V engines built in 2009 presented the problem at some point but not all of them.

Will yours have it? Nobody can really say it, Moto Guzzi, never came clear about it , the causes etc.

Can you upgrade to the new timing system with roller cam followers? Apparently the new system is not retro-compatible with the engine made with the tappet cam followers.
As matter of fact when the timing system is "gone", it is still replaced with the same type (tappets, not rollers), apparently just different materials, again Moto Guzzi never said anything officially.

Can you anticipate the replacement of the timing system with the same type made from different material ?
Possibly yes but you will pay everything for it as yours is still ok so Moto Guzzi will have not reason to cover for it.
Beside, there are Grisos, Stelvios, Norges, 1200 Sports, that had the timing system replaced more then once, some up to three times.

Is the latest timing system with tappet cam followers released in 2012 the final solution for those 1200 8V engines with tappets ?

Difficult to say, Moto Guzzi said that there are not claims of timing system failure since they put the 2012 release on the engine with tappets but I say and many others might agree, that there are too few miles in between the 2012 version and today to be sure!

You have your Griso now, really beautiful bike, probably one of the most beautiful bike ever, just ride it and enjoy it.

Don't stress yourself thinking of this, there is not point as it might just be fine without ever have the problem, and should that happen, then you will have your timing system replaced by Moto Guzzi

[Wayne Orwig]

In 2004 I bought an EV with the hydraulic lifters.That year I road it across the country. Then a few people started having repeated failures of the lifters. So in 2006, I road across the country again. It turns out, from my understanding, that it was related to SOME valve springs being too hard. If you got one of the few that failed, it would repeatedly fail until you replaced the bad valve spring. The upgrade kit included new springs.
My 2009 Stelvio has something over 40,000 miles. It consumes rear tires at a high rate. I would ride it across the country tomorrow if I had the time.
I have to wonder if there are some over hardened valve springs out there.