MARK’S GRISO FUEL MAP REVIEW (somewhat long)

[TalkingGriso]

Incorrect. Mine didn't work. That, despite the expense, i overlooked. I have also seen quite a few PCV/AT equipped bikes and worked with their owners, both 2VPC and 4VPC. I consistently and repeatedly see the issues i have described.

When you say your's didn't work, could you elaborate?  Your 8V was fouling plugs with the full PC treatment?

[Vasco DG]

Wouldn't connect. At all. I've been told before it was my fault because I was doing something wrong. I wasn't. It just didn't work.

My plan was to take it to the US and fit it to my Griso I had there. The advent of the 68S map made it un-necessary for me to pursue that option.

Over the next four years I had interaction with a number of people who did get the system working. What I and they observed paralleled what I have been stating about my experiences with the PCV/AT system and the reasons it behaves like it does.

If others are happy with it? That's fine by me. I will though not be cowed and misquoted into changing my opinions, that's all.

Pete

[molly]

Guzzidiag has been 100% reliable for me and I was the first 5am Guinea pig.

Regards fueling.
My 1200 2v motor once the lambda was switched off was mostly too rich by at least 5%, the exception being in the TPS 29-51/3750rpm range which needed a bit more fuel, but that was my bike.
To be fair if you look at a standard Power commander map for the open loop area (the only bit it alters) it takes as much as 15% fuel away in some areas.
The problem I have found if you don't switch the lambda off and rely on a Optimiser or similar  for the closed loop fueling it will be far too rich at times hence the problems with error warnings on the dash.

One other point which I have banged on about in the past is the over compensating the ecu does for air temperature and pressure. Anything below 20c and the thing is over rich by my calculations. It seems the base map is made somewhere in the ballpark and the lambda is expected to keep everything on track with poor results.

My bike is set up with no lambda, adjusted fuel table, reduced fueling for air temp/pressure and engine temperature and runs to my satisfaction. If anyone with a 1200 2v motor wants to try it pm me.

[molly]

I have a 2012 Stelvio NTX which has the Mistral exhaust with DB killer in. the bike has 22,000 miles on it and mods  have been on since new. I have had my ECU re-flashed from the local dealer (AF-1) via the Rexxer app. He used a Griso map. He put the bike on the Dyno and tuned the A/F mixture and called it good. He says that the bikes come from the factory tuned in a very lean mixture. The bike runs very well but the gas mileage sucks. 23-27 mpg city and 32 -34 highway. That data is computed by dividing miles/gallons actually put in the bike, not relying on bike computer readout. So can this map improve my mpg or should I be satisfied with what I have got. If so how should I proceed. Thanks.

If my bike had been set up this way I wouldn't be very happy. Why use a Griso map? other than to be lazy.
The fuel consumption indicates he may have gone for power and got it wrong in the cruise area.
The Rexxer systems relies on a competent tech to set the bike up and very good results can be achieved. My local Rexxer shop asks the customer their needs i.e. good fuel consumption before starting work and they always custom map to the individual bike.

[swmckinley54]

swmckinley54 what 2012 ntx is that: small tank, one lambda or what?  Else a griso map won't work ever. The bike doesn't even run. From 2011 Mandello made big tank 2 lambda Stelvio's

Paul,
I believe that the O2 sensors are disconnected. It is a 2012 Stelvio NTX with an 8 gal tank. The bike runs very well, like a scalded cat, but as I said the the gas milage sucks and when at a stop and the bike is idling it smells as if it is running rich. I know that part of that smell is the fact that the catylitic convert is no more because it is located in the stock pipe and not the aftermarket pipe. You will have to excuse my ignorance as I am not quite as tech savy as some and my eyes just glaze over when we start talking EFI, Guzzidaig and such. I am SERIOUSLY considering putting the stock can back on and asking dealer to re-install stock map. Thanks for your response.

[RacerX]

Incorrect. Mine didn't work. That, despite the expense, i overlooked. I have also seen quite a few PCV/AT equipped bikes and worked with their owners, both 2VPC and 4VPC. I consistently and repeatedly see the issues i have described. I am not an idiot. We may not agree but I will not resile from my beliefs because of your 13 years as an advisor to Dynojet, I'm sorry but I think your base precepts and understanding of the 8V engine in particular are deeply flawed.

Sorry, but you are pretty much the only one on the face of the planet that couldn't get it to work. It's two injector plugs, a TPS tap and a ground. More so a preconceived notion of not wanting it to work. That's fine.
Even when you swung a leg over my Stelvio with the full kit, you told me you couldn't tell a difference. That spoke volumes. Everyone else that rides my bikes say that they are likely the best they've ever ridden. Now that you've stumbled onto a solution that I wasn't involved with, you are raving about it all over the net. "All of the PC-V equipped bikes you've looked at were problematic" is poetic. You rode Andrew's G11 and thought it was great.

I'm not a mileage chaser. I just enjoy my bikes and put gas in them when needed. I prefer to have a healthy, cool running motor with amazing power.

Static map data has shown inaccurate from bike to bike, much less country to country.

My base percepts and understanding of the 8V deeply flawed? I just use the same brilliant internal combustion fueling technology afforded to me by a $45+ million company, that continues to put bikes on the podium and hold Land Speed Records. You've now seen numerous plug readings from 8V's now that are perfect, which was your only argument. It's clear you don't like the product. Fine.

I'm still waiting to hear how you think a correct map is developed.

I am only stating fact on the corrupted ECUs I've addressed. No scare tactics. They weren't catastrophic failures, just flawed data that caused severe running issues until reflashed.

For those who are enjoying my intense work and huge investment, thank you.

Stop bashing my products, and if you do "wish me the best" stop talking about the PC-V as flawed. It is not. It's just a tool, not a magic wand... and very capable in the right hands.

For those who choose to be blissfully ignorant to this technology, I wish you the best.

My last words on here on this. I'll use my "advertising portal" to continue to spend my own money to test, develop and provide solid products that have proven to work. This is a 13+ year argument that just won't die, yet is the basis of most likely every modern internal combustion engine on the planet using closed-loop mapping technology.

[swmckinley54]

Molly
I don't know the answer to why he used a Griso map. I have emailed him twice to ask if he could improve it and his response is that the A/F mixture was correct and thats the best we could hope for. So I am SOL and I really am not sophisticated  enough to get a laptop out and attempt it myself.

[molly]

Your case highlights the perils of tuning Guzzis, not enough of them are seen to gain experience.
 Things are moving on in the tuning game and adding loads of bolt on manipulators are not now the only choice.
The best option must still be a Rexxer tune with a tech with all the skills BUT they are few and far between.
The Guzzidiag guys (which I'm one) will get there soon with mapping options for various models and sticking a finger in the dike (Paul will know what I mean) won't stop progress I'm afraid.

[Vasco DG]

Sorry, but you are pretty much the only one on the face of the planet that couldn't get it to work. It's two injector plugs, a TPS tap and a ground. More so a preconceived notion of not wanting it to work. That's fine.
Even when you swung a leg over my Stelvio with the full kit, you told me you couldn't tell a difference. That spoke volumes. Everyone else that rides my bikes say that they are likely the best they've ever ridden. Now that you've stumbled onto a solution that I wasn't involved with, you are raving about it all over the net. "All of the PC-V equipped bikes you've looked at were problematic" is poetic. You rode Andrew's G11 and thought it was great.

Andrew's bike had far more done to it than the addition of a PCV. I'd also like to know where the data that I'm 'Just About' the only person on the planet who can't get the system to work? As for my 'Raving'? I see a different system that I think is superior and that is simple and intuitive that does not require huge expense or hacking into the stock bike's loom. If that belief is at cross purposes to yours? Well, sorry but that's the way it is.

My base percepts and understanding of the 8V deeply flawed? I just use the same brilliant internal combustion fueling technology afforded to me by a $45+ million company, that continues to put bikes on the podium and hold Land Speed Records. You've now seen numerous plug readings from 8V's now that are perfect, which was your only argument. It's clear you don't like the product. Fine.

But its obviously not fine that I choose to be critical of something that I paid top dollar for and it didn't work simply because its a product you endorse? Sorry but I don't get how that works?

I'm still waiting to hear how you think a correct map is developed.

By using a host of different testing methods in a rigorous manner over an extended period of time rather than relying on one single input and its interpretation by the logic of one piece of aftermarket hardware. I have never said EGA is not a useful tool. Simply that relying on it as the sole tool is flawed when looking to create a different map.

Stop bashing my products, and if you do "wish me the best" stop talking about the PC-V as flawed. It is not. It's just a tool, not a magic wand... and very capable in the right hands.

Once again Todd, I am not 'Bashing' you or anybody else but why should I not be able to be critical of something that I, and others, (I am definitely not Robinson Crusoe on this.) have found wanting? Am I not allowed to express an opinion on something that I paid good money for simply because my opinion differs from yours! That's a very 'Soviet' attitude! :D

My last words on here on this. I'll use my "advertising portal" to continue to spend my own money to test, develop and provide solid products that have proven to work. This is a 13+ year argument that just won't die, yet is the basis of most likely every modern internal combustion engine on the planet using closed-loop mapping technology.

Good-o. Hopefully we'll catch up at the Rock Store or somewhere next time I'm over. I have no axe to grind with you Todd, I just happen to think you're wrong, that's all.

Pete

[tiger_one]

Bottom line, we don't go to guzzitech, but it comes here???  I find that a little over the top.

PCV, AT and what ever else = $1500 plus.  You have no control to change it or even know what it is doing.

GuzziDiag, you have complete control over your map and cost, about $20 for cables plus any donation you wish to make for the fine programming that allows you to change maps.

[pauldaytona]

Your case highlights the perils of tuning Guzzis, not enough of them are seen to gain experience.
 Things are moving on in the tuning game and adding loads of bolt on manipulators are not now the only choice.
The best option must still be a Rexxer tune with a tech with all the skills BUT they are few and far between.
The Guzzidiag guys (which I'm one) will get there soon with mapping options for various models and sticking a finger in the dike (Paul will know what I mean) won't stop progress I'm afraid.

Rexxer are two things, first there are premade maps that you can load, and have luck that you are happy, or not.
Second there is the more serious option that someone with a Dyno, and the software to edit maps, that comes with the REXXER pro version, ECM Titanium, modifies your map. The rexxer ECM package can do nothing more then Tunerpro. So it still comes to the one doing the work if you get what you wanted.

Most Rexxer maps ive seen were not that special.


@Todd: people like to discuss fueling but at Guzzitech you see that as your secret so it's no use to discuss it there. I share all I know, some people catch up quick, others need more time, but all learn something. And that was the reason of starting Guzzidiag. So people start to understand what is happening inside. 

[RacerX]

Bottom line, we don't go to guzzitech, but it comes here???  I find that a little over the top.
PCV, AT and what ever else = $1500 plus.  You have no control to change it or even know what it is doing. GuzziDiag, you have complete control over your map and cost, about $20 for cables plus any donation you wish to make for the fine programming that allows you to change maps.

Google Alerts brought me here, when my name and/or company was used. And you are?

@Todd: people like to discuss fueling but at Guzzitech you see that as your secret so it's no use to discuss it there. I share all I know, some people catch up quick, others need more time, but all learn something. And that was the reason of starting Guzzidiag. So people start to understand what is happening inside.

Secret in that I've spent more then most people pay for a new Guzzi on the hard/software, plus 100's of hours on map development... that's called intellectual property, and I care not to share it.
I've said direct, and I'll state for the record on the Diag program; Nice work. It's not perfect, but good for anyone that wants to jack around their mapping without solid knowledge and tools, it's quite amazing people are willing to take such risks.
For the the basics, it certainly is worth what they pay for it.

End.

[Vasco DG]

More scaremongering? Really Todd? Get over it, please!

Pete

[tiger_one]

+1 on that.

You can really tell he has nice cash cow with this in the past.  I had the same scare tactic tried when we were in the Super Tenere bunch.  The flash by that company did about nothing for $500.  Such a big waste of money they later offered a free upgrade which did help some.

Having control over the map is HUGE in my book, I would not trust that to anyone that I don't really trust.  Plus there is the money, for a one time flash, just not worth it for those big bucks.  Just listen to all the users that are getting terrible MPG numbers after the flash.

[beetle]

tiger_one has nailed it.

Someone is frightened of a little competition methinks. A $500 reflash that actually doesn't do much is a bit like money for jam. I'd be concerned if it was my cash cow too. Don't worry Todd, I'll not reveal the secrets of your 100's of hours of map development. Intellectual property and all that.

You know what? I'll even put my map up against your reflash only option. Yes, it's that much better.

For my map? All I ask is for a donation to cover development costs, eg dyno, fuel and man hours. $50 compared to $500. It's a no-brainer.

Fuel injection for Guzzis is no longer the realm of self-proclaimed guru's and shops with the expensive tools.
Bravo GuzziDiag!

[Chuck in Indiana]

Well, I have no dawg in this fight (apologies to Micheal Vick)  ;) but let me say this. Todd *has* paid his dues. Back around the turn of the century,  ::)  his map made the almost unridable Centauro fuel very nicely, indeed. Ask Storm. I think LowRider can attest that his Greenie runs well.  ;D Todd's map.
The kid (Brad) had Todd reflash his 8V Grease O, and it is very good. This bike has an open air box and Mistrals, I think. Runs almost as well as.. dare I say it?.. Carbs.  ;D Mileage? When Brad and I were on our extended trip last fall, it returned almost exactly the same as Rosie. (About 40 when touring)
Of course, it is capable of burning more fuel. Horsepower has to come from somewhere..
I, personally, don't blame him for being upset, *but* there it is. GuzziDiag and TunerPro will do the job that it's taken *very* expensive software to do previously. Kudos to Paul and Beard. Just the same, we shouldn't be passing around Todd's maps.. that's is only right.
Do you want to pay Todd for his experience? That is your call.
Now.. can some electronic thing not work right out of the box? Yep. Same Centauro, same time frame. I'd upgraded to the Creedon chip. It flat didn't work.  :o I called Will, and he said he'd tested it, but send it back. The next one worked just fine. That didn't mean the the Creedon chip was a piece of carp, for what ever reason, *one* of them didn't work in my bike. <shrug>

[beetle]

3 Griso owners have accepted my offer.

I still need two more!

 ;-T

[Tilter]

I have a 2009 8v Griso with an a ECU reflash end by Todd. His service was outstanding, he stands buy his products and he had an option for many of us that at the time didn't have any choice to improve their bikes fueling and/or performance. I had his full kit on my 2008 1100 and it truly transformed the bike - it was a phenomenal upgrade.

On my 2009 I went once again with the full kit, then because I couldn't figure it out I was all stressed about it and Todd took it all back, even supported me in the decision and made me feel alright about it.

Stock but for a termi exhaust here was a little bit of decel popping from the bike and some characteristics I wasn't happy with. Todd offered the ecu reflash only as an easy fix, with the promise that I could return it if it didn't help or I wasn't satisfied - it cured the bike completely and made the bike run wonderfully. The only catch is that the fuel economy has dropped quite a bit - which Todd has offered to take a look at. Again, excellent service.

The other side of this is Pete Roper (I know there are others but for me Pete is the key) and his vast experience with griso as a rider and mechanic. When I read that Pete was working on a map I was ecstatic, although still very satisfied with my map. Now I'm reading that his map does most or all of what Todd's map does, plus gives great fuel mileage. Wow - I'm super impressed - in fact I plan on sending my ecu to Pete so I can do a full evaluation and comparison between the two maps and then post about it on my blog, and here too.

But I think we are missing something here. Pete and Co. Are enthusiasts sharing their knowledge and efforts with their forum mates in the spirit of improving the bikes they are passionate about.  Todd is a businessman who has made a significant investment and is now working to profit on that investment - also on bikes he is passionate about and also in the spirit of improving those bikes. The thing is he has chosen to do this as his livelihood and brings us many guzzi upgrades in an easy to use place to buy them. Simple capitalism. Supply and demand.  What's wrong with that?

Frankly Todd is just charging what any Harley dealer would charge to set up their street tuner or pcv or thundermax. Pete is sharing is time and experience for practically free. One doesn't make the other wrong - they have different points of view. I go to one dealer who tells me the v&h fuelpack is the way to go and the other tells me to get only a Harley tuner because it's the only one that works - you know what I do? I do my research and go with the guy I feel more comfortable with and trust more. Todd's is five times the price but he is a business, with all the protection that comes with doing business with a business. Pete is an expert griso guru who has put in a ton of time to find the best solution for him and is sharing that. Thank you to both of them for their contributions.

If I can get the same effect from the Pete map as I can from the Todd map and get better fuel economy to boot then that's great - more choices are always better.

I think we need to go back to simply highlighting what's good about our own products without bashing our competitors'.  

[Vasco DG]

Bill hagan already has a copy as does Doug in Boston for Jacqui's bike. Steve, (Porterhouse.) is already running it as are several of the Ghetto mob. I think that's a fair sample.

A couple of people have already commented favourably on its performance and so far nobody has said its shit or bricked their bike.

Its just an alternative.

Pete

[Vasco DG]

And once again I'll re-iterate that my contribution has been wholly advisory and as a tester. The work and development of the map is all Mark's. If it was mine I'd be charging appreciably more for it! As it is its his call.

Yes, I am an enthusiast and very experienced but I too am a businessman, admittedly not a very good one, :D but oddly enough I too have to make a living. While working on stuff like this with Mark is great fun and most importantly challenging the simple truth is it doesn't pay the bills. As I head towards my seventh decade that is something that is always at the back of my mind. The idea that somehow because I don't screw every cent out of everyone I can somehow makes me a less businesslike proposition I find rather perplexing. Oh well, let's put it down to 'Cultural Differences'. :D

Pete

[Tilter]

And once again I'll re-iterate that my contribution has been wholly advisory and as a tester. The work and development of the map is all Mark's. If it was mine I'd be charging appreciably more for it! As it is its his call.

Yes, I am an enthusiast and very experienced but I too am a businessman, admittedly not a very good one, :D but oddly enough I too have to make a living. While working on stuff like this with Mark is great fun and most importantly challenging the simple truth is it doesn't pay the bills. As I head towards my seventh decade that is something that is always at the back of my mind. The idea that somehow because I don't screw every cent out of everyone I can somehow makes me a less businesslike proposition I find rather perplexing. Oh well, let's put it down to 'Cultural Differences'. :D

Pete

Oh I'm not saying you aren't a businessman. I'm just talking about my perception as your primary motivAtion, which to me looks like someone trying to help his mates as cheaply as possible. I thought it was a good thing actually. And I think it's just as good if you're a businessman too. I just mean that it's like coke and Pepsi. You buy what you like.

[Bikeless]

8V Griso owners -

You really owe it to yourselves to try Beetle's map.  I liked my Griso before testing Beetle's maps, but after he perfected it, it made all the difference. 

From a "meh" bike that was great at speed but not so great in the lower ranges to incredible at all ranges.

If you have basic computer skills [i.e.: if you can install USB thumbdrive onto your XP/Win7 laptop], the process is easy and completely reversible.  You don't like it, go back to the stock/068/03 map you had.

It's winter here in the States.  Some of our bikes are on trickle chargers until the weather gets better.  So, no down time!

Some times, a good deal really is a good deal.

[molly]

I wish Todd well with his products they obviously have a following and at one time they were the only show in town for the Guzzi tuner so we owe him thanks for his efforts and I hope he is in profit as a result.
I think what has turned people off the Guzzitech reflash is the price which to me was always far too much for a simple task even allowing for R&D. I could get a professional custom map for that.
Guzzidiag, Power commander, Rexxer are all good in their own way and so let's celebrate the choice on offer.
Some of the arguments here are the result of mixing commercial interests with this forums campfire ethos which needs to be resolved to prevent further bad blood.

[tiger_one]

Yep, now if we could get Paul to purchase the KTM 1190, then maybe be inspired to work on that map!!!  Nothing really bad, but from my experience with the Griso, I can feel the retarded timing around the 3k rpm zone, and you guessed it, that is about where you spend the most time while cruising.

[dbarb3]

Have to agree with Chuck, Todd has paid his dues and is an asset to our community. He is also a businessman. Whats wrong with that?

It was well worth it to me to install his Flash and the Autotune setup. It all worked perfectly from the start. After applying changes from the Autotune a few times the bike was dialed in exactly at the AFR I chose at each throttle opening and RPM.  Todd has answered every question I have ever had promptly and has reviewed my maps for free. His after sale service is 1st class.  The Autotune allows you to make the exact changes to your map to maintain the AFR you desire anytime that you make changes to your engine, exhaust, air box etc. You can make adjustments to your map in the winter and summer to adjust for extreme temperature differences. This adjustability makes it totally worth every penny to me.

YMMV but lets not put down someone that has a very good product that works. If it isn't worth to you, don't buy it. Simple as that.
  

[Moto Fugazzi]

Sorry, but you are pretty much the only one on the face of the planet that couldn't get it to work. It's two injector plugs, a TPS tap and a ground. More so a preconceived notion of not wanting it to work. That's fine.

I was hesitant to chime in, but the PCV/Autotune didn't work on my 2001 V11S. The bike ran horribly after the install. After a full summer of sending my ECU back and forth (I think it's corrupt now), I ended up getting a PCIII, installing a new (used) ECU and then I bought an AFR gauge and made my own PC map. The bike runs great now, and I average over 40mpg. Keep in mind that Todd did everything in his power to get things working and keep me happy. I would still buy his products and use his services again. He has been nothing less than professional and answered all of my questions promptly. Just stating that I'm one of the others that it didn't work for...

I believe the ECU is corrupt because we installed it again at my local dealer and the reflashed ECU was set at -73 CO, and my dealer couldn't adjust it with PADS or Axone. Luckily I brought my VDST with me, and we were able to change it with that. Oddly enough, my bike runs much better with the replacement ECU I purchased, even when the original was flashed back to original specs.

On a side note, my dealer set up my bike so well that the PCIII isn't even needed, but I just use it to smooth things out a bit.

[pauldaytona]

Ken, I think you left out the Guzzidiag part of the story. We have been mailing about it for two month.

[Moto Fugazzi]

Ken, I think you left out the Guzzidiag part of the story. We have been mailing about it for two month.

Sorry, Paul. That's actually the last piece of the puzzle for this bike. You have definitely eliminated the pinging that I had in the 3-5K during heavy throttle, which was my entire reason for getting the PCV/Autotune in the first place.
I'm still hoping to convert my PCIII fuel trims to the ECU via Guzzidiag, but since it's been so cold here, I haven't been able to ride. Thanks again for all of the help! And yes, Paul has seen my reflashed ECU in order to help me solve the problem I was having.
Ken

I should also mention that Paul gave me the map to turn off the lambda sensor on my 2009 V7C, and the bike does run so much better.
 

[beetle]

Have to agree with Chuck, Todd has paid his dues and is an asset to our community. He is also a businessman. Whats wrong with that?

YMMV but lets not put down someone that has a very good product that works. If it isn't worth to you, don't buy it. Simple as that.

I personally have no gripe with Todd and as previously mentioned, applaud his efforts. Let's not forget that he was the first to chime in on this thread and claim 'bashing'. He then tried to scare users that using this map was a risk. I'm sorry he can't accept competition.

This map is a low cost alternative for stock bikes. If you've modified intake or exhaust other than a can with db killer, or a seeking a lot more performance, then you will need to talk to Todd. Simples.

[beetle]

OK, we now have five Griso owners accept the offer.

Once they have flashed and gone for a ride, they will post an unbiased review. Love it or hate it, or 'ho hum' feelings will be revealed.


 ;-T