Battery Charging Issues: '81 V1000 G5

[Groover]

I've read this thread > http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=70185.0 a few times and I'm hoping someone can help me with the initial simplified-for-dummies process and maybe help we with a few pointers.

Basically my battery is not charging apparently and it finally caused the bike to not start last night. The battery is only about 2 months old. The big giveaway was that my charge light on the dash, although seemed to work normally (bright red at idle, goes away with throttle) I noticed that in the dark the light was actually very dim when running normally instead of being off. I never noticed the issue during the day because of it being so dim, and my battery was still hanging on since it was nice and new I'm thinking.

Here are my steps on tackling checking the charging circuit, please advise:

1) I'm going to clean/DeOxit and check all connection on the bike (this was on my list to do) - Easy, I can do this.

2) I want to check (if needed for charging circuit) the following:
   A - Rectifier
   B - Rotor
   C - Regulator
   D - Brushes
   E - Starter relay
   F - Stator

3) My questions are... what is the best way to check A through F items (voltmeter, ohmmeter, visual inspection, or tongue  :P) and where are A, C, and E located on the bike? I think I C is located behind the fuse box area, and maybe A and E under the tank area?

Any help you can provide is greatly appreciated. Hoping to ride this weekend!

Thanks for the help.
 

[Kiwi_Roy]

First of all if you connect your multimeter on Volts across the battery
When you rev the engine does the Voltage rise?

A This is a bit tricky, I'll send you a PM for an e-mail address so I can send a sketch

B The rotor should also measure < 5 Ohms between the two sliprings and Infinity (very high) between the sliprings and chassis

C A bit tricky also

D That's easy, just make sure they aren't sticking and they will read very low < 0.1 Ohm from the brush lead to the slipring

E Why are we looking at this? The coil will read ~ 100 Ohms ±20.. One contact terminal will have 12 Volts on it, may drop to ~11 while cranking. the other will read 0 Volts and jump to 11 while cranking

F You have a 3 phase alternator, between each of the 3 the resistance should be identical. I'm guessing < 1 Ohm but Infinity to chassis (wires disconnected)

[Groover]

Thanks for the steps Roy. Today I went through all the connectors, including the warning bulb, cleaned everthing with fine sandpaper and DeOxit. I also checked the alternator/rotor as best as I understood your explanation, and I think that checked out ok maybe. I believe I have the 3 phase rotor. I'll post a pic next week when I'm not posting from my phone. Unfortunately, all my efforts today lead to no charging still. I also found this diagram, but I ran out if time to dissect things further: http://www.buchanan1.net/charge.shtml

When if check the voltage at the battery while running, it would stay at 12 Volts mostly, but sonething odd would happen when I would blurp the throttle (my tachometer doesn't work, but I'll save that for another day and another thread..).. Anyway, when I would give it throttle, the needle on my voltmeter would actually jump down to about 10 volts just for a moment, then back to 12. It would do it almost everytime I would go from idle to say 4000 rpm. Do I need a rectifier? Is the rectifier the same as the diode board that is near the fuse box on my bike?

 Thanks again.

[Kiwi_Roy]

If you have a multimeter with the Diode test function it's quite easy to test the rectifier, put the black lead on the B+ terminal then touch the red lead on each of the 3 stator terminals, you should get a reading between 0.4 and 0.6 Volts, same on each one, reverse the leads and you will get an open circuit
Put the red lead on ground then touch the black on each stator terminal, should be the same.
The 61 terminal will be similar though may be a little higher.
Check the terminal shown connected actually are

Here's a typical schematic
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/1981_California_II.gif

The regulator is not so easy to check but make sure it has a good ground and the positive voltage is there.

[Groover]

Is the B+ terminal the blue wire or the red? Sorry, I can't post a pic right now. Thanks for the reply. (I'll need to buy a different tester)

[Kiwi_Roy]

Blue and Red are connected inside the regulator. The blue wire from the charge light  supplies a little bit of Voltage enough to excite the rotor, after it starts the Voltage builds up and the 3 diodes from the alternator take over driving the Voltage up until there is no longer a difference between the battery and the output 61 so the light goes out.

You could try putting 12 Volts to the 61 terminal.

Note: 61 and D+ are the same, make sure you get 12 Volts to the regulator from D+
Make sure it has a good ground then you should see some Voltage at the purple wire going to the rotor brush
If there is then measure the current thru the wire, I expect it would be 1/2 Amp or more, I will check mine and get back although I have a different regulator.

You don't actually need a diode tester, if you have a small voltage source and a lamp or resistor to pass some current thru the diode then measure the Voltage across it, that's all the diode tester does, refer to the circuit in lower left hand, ignore the regulator it's a later type

[Groover]

Are the block and terminal numbers you mention in the v1000 g5 and 1000sp workshop manual, or are you using a different schematic? I'm not finding these references..

Thanks again for your assistance. I'll probably continue tomorrow at this point.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Refer to item (27) of the diagram in reply #3, I think it's a standard Bosch arrangement
Follow the Voltage from blue wire (lamp) thru the rectifier out and to the regulator, from there it passes thru a couple of transistors out the purple wire and to the alternator rotor
With the key off you should be able to measure a few ohms to chassis on the purple wire, (it may be a different colour but same thing)

I will go and measure mine see what I get

In the mean time take a jumper from battery + to the 61 terminal then measure the purple wire to chassis, I'm guessing 6 - 8 Volts
Pull the purple wire off the regulator and measure it's resistance to chassis.
I'll get back in 1/2 hour

BTW, make sure your rectifier has a good ground as shown in the diagram, it won't charge without it.

Update:
Slight delay while Roy changes his brushes, one had a broken lead, I wondered why it was a little erratic.

Here are the Ohms readings

From U - V or W 0.7 Ohms
From U, V or W to the star point 0.4 Ohms
Between rotor sliprings 4 Ohms
From the brush terminal (where purple attaches) to chassis 4.8 Ohms, this rose to about 6 with the new brushes because they aren't bedded in.

When I turn on the key I see 10 Volts on the purple wire (mine is brown but I'm refering to Carl's diagram), you won't see anything like that I have an aftermarket Electrosport regulator, I think you might see as low as 0.2 Volts but that's ok.
You haven't fitted an LED charge lamp have you? They don't draw enough current.

Note: Both my brushes have a spade terminal but the purple (brown) wire must go to the one that isn't grounded, the other brush is connected to chassis as shown in the diagram. it may be that the bolt is just not insulated, the other bolt of course is insulated from the chassis.

Some bikes may not have the common wire connected to T of the rectifier, it's not really needed.

[Kiwi_Roy]

If you really feel it's the rectifier let me suggest going with an Electrosport ESR450 combination rectifier / regulator I think it's the one recommended for your bike, this is the one I have on my Cali II, it tidies up the wiring quite a bit. $130

www.electrosport.co m
http://www.electrosport.com/products/regulators-rectifiers/

These are made in China by a US company

Check your alternator resistances first in case there is a problem there.
With the brushes lifted make sure you don't have a short to chassis on the rotor
With all 4 wires off the stator each coil should read about the same and again no short to chassis.

From the regulator you should be able to read the rotor resistance ~6 Ohms verifying the circuit is complete

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

I have a new-old-stock Voltpak regulator/rectifier with installation instructions that was given to me by MD/DC Guzzi Rep. Bill Sharp. Yours for the cost of shipping.



http://www.eurospares.com/voltpakrx1.jpg

http://www.eurospares.com/voltpakrx2.jpg

[Kiwi_Roy]

Reading back through the post you mention the Voltmeter acting a little weird, I suspect you may have a dirty ignition switch or bad connection at the fuses, try shorting it out or simply clean it.

You can't get better than Charlie's offer ;-T

[Groover]

Thanks guys, and I'm amazed on the support provided here. I gave the project a rest for today, but I did sneak out to the garage to do some more testing based on the new information provided and I'm still a at a bit of a loss. I think, though not 100% sure, that the rectifier may be OK based on the needle movements on my tester. That said, I really appreciate the offer from Charlie and I will gladly accept, though I will not install it and I would like to return it to you after I try replacing the regulator first. I'm going to order a new stock-like mechanical regulator replacement from harpers this evening, and if that solves the problem, I'll send it the rectifier back to you so it's available to someone else, but I'd like to have it on hand for when I do the regulator work in case that's not it. I'll send you a PM in a few with my info, and I also need another part from you.

Kiwi_Roy, you've been great. Thank you. I'll get a new Voltmeter next week and I'll post some numbers. Slowly, but I am starting to understand this I think... Thanks again for all the help.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

I'm going to order a new stock-like mechanical regulator replacement from harpers this evening, and if that solves the problem, I'll send it the rectifier back to you so it's available to someone else, but I'd like to have it on hand for when I do the regulator work in case that's not it. I'll send you a PM in a few with my info, and I also need another part from you.

If you haven't already ordered... I have a good, used, original, voltage regulator too.

[Groover]

If you haven't already ordered... I have a good, used, original, voltage regulator too.

Please include it to the total. I was about to order when I saw your reply. Thanks again!

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

I'll get everything boxed up and sent out tomorrow.

[Groover]

Thanks Charlie, very much appreciated. I'll keep this thread updated during the narrowing down process until the issue is resolved.

Thanks again to all for the assistance.

[Groover]

I'll post a detailed reply later when I free up some time to collect my notes and type them all up for here. I worked on my bike for crazy amount of hours this weekend, and about lost my mind. In a nutshell I tried pretty much everything, traced all wires, tested this and that (I'll post info later when I free up some time) and I decided I want to just replace everything that has to do with the charging system and be done with it.

In the meantime, this is what I'm looking to get. What do you guys think?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/BMW-R-Airhead-Moto-Guzzi-Bosch-3-Phase-Alternator-Kit-ALL-NEW-PARTS-/251613883022?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&fits=Make%3AMoto+Guzzi%7CModel%3AG5&hash=item3a955b2a8e&vxp=mtr

Also, there is some sort of relay looking box located behind/under the fuse panel, just below the rectifier.. what is that? It almost looks like the starter relay that is located/attached with the regulator.

Anyway, if you guys could share your thoughts on that eBay item, I may get that on order so I can hopefully have it by the weekend. If you recommend something else, please advise.

Charlie, I tried your items and I was confident all was going to work, but nothing did. Not even the VoltPac, which makes me think there is a more deep-seeded problem (rotor, stator) Basically the charge light would stay bright red with the Voltpac, and still no charge to the battery, so I ended that test.

Then I reverted back the the original rectifier / regulator setup (the used set you sent me), still dim light while revving, no charge to the battery. Then I started jumping this and that and I may have fried the rectifier you send me as well (the factory style one) and now I have a permanent bright red light, and no charge.

Again, I'll post some number later just for case study for this board.

Thanks again for the assistance.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

In the meantime, this is what I'm looking to get. What do you guys think?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/BMW-R-Airhead-Moto-Guzzi-Bosch-3-Phase-Alternator-Kit-ALL-NEW-PARTS-/251613883022?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&fits=Make%3AMoto+Guzzi%7CModel%3AG5&hash=item3a955b2a8e&vxp=mtr

Also, there is some sort of relay looking box located behind/under the fuse panel, just below the rectifier.. what is that? It almost looks like the starter relay that is located/attached with the regulator.

Anyway, if you guys could share your thoughts on that eBay item, I may get that on order so I can hopefully have it by the weekend. If you recommend something else, please advise.

The starter relay is just under the rear master cylinder and diode board/rectifier.

For just a bit more than the eBay item, EME offers a 400 watt charging system:
http://www.euromotoelectrics.com/EnDuraLast-II-400-Watt-Charging-System-p/edl400-altkit105.htm

[Groover]

The starter relay is just under the rear master cylinder and diode board/rectifier.

For just a bit more than the eBay item, EME offers a 400 watt charging system:
http://www.euromotoelectrics.com/EnDuraLast-II-400-Watt-Charging-System-p/edl400-altkit105.htm

Looks like they have it on Sale, so I may go with that. What's the benefit of the higher wattage? More substance so-to speak, less taxiing on the system?

What is the little relay looking box then that is mounted in the same spot as the regulator then? I thought that was the starter relay...

Thanks for your help.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Looks like they have it on Sale, so I may go with that. What's the benefit of the higher wattage? More substance so-to speak, less taxiing on the system?

What is the little relay looking box then that is mounted in the same spot as the regulator then? I thought that was the starter relay...

Thanks for your help.

Higher wattage - more wattage to run extras such as lights and/or heated riding gear.

The "relay looking box" near the regulator is the horn/headlight flash relay.

[Groover]

Higher wattage - more wattage to run extras such as lights and/or heated riding gear.

The "relay looking box" near the regulator is the horn/headlight flash relay.

Ok, thanks again for the help. I just ordered the kit over the phone. Ended up being about $30 cheaper than going the eBay route, so definitely worth ordering directly. I decided to get the stock replacement instead of the 400W since I have a pretty simple setup (stock lighting, nothing extra) and I probably won't be using heated gear, though thanks for pointing that one out.

Charlie, I'll hold on to the Votlpac until this is all settled and all is working but I'll very likely be sending it back to you, and thanks again. May be a week or two.

I think I'll feel more at ease having all these parts replaced as things were looking pretty baked down there in the rotor area.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

It's relatively easy and inexpensive to replace the entire charging system harness as well. That would eliminate the possibility of it being a wiring issue. http://www.mgcycle.com/product_info.php?products_id=767

[Groover]

I might just order that cable too, not sure. I think my wires are OK-ish, but who knows. I'm posting a few pics and some numbers from my testing and trouble-shooting this weekend. Maybe these will make sense. As mentioned, I ordered the entire charging system (stator, rotor, rectifier, and regular) so I sure hope that solves the issue. In the meantime, I almost though this was solved by replacing the rectifier, but as you know, that wasn't it.

This my old/original rectifier. I know it's not the correct & most thorough test, but to me this indicated (at least to my understanding) that there was at least something wrong with this unit (open circuit)




This is the OEM used rectifier Charlie sent me (currently installed on my bike). Same tester settings, same connectors. Once I saw this, I said to myself… that has to be the issue! I guess no...




This here is the charge lamp on my dash. Is it supposed to have a red and a blue on the same spade? Not according to the diagrams, so more head scratching here. I left this as I found it assuming it was correct. What do you guys think? Maybe I’m looking at the brake oil one? Not sure, going off memory at this point as I didn’t properly annotate this in my notes.




No photo on this one, but I also tested both my stock regulator and the stock one Charlie sent me. They both tested the same and were off the bike (no wires connected) and those numbers were:

D+ and DF - 0.3 ohms
D- an DF - 85 Ohms
D- and D+ - 85 ohms


This next photo is a front view of the Alternator. I'll call the top light blue wire "Y" (as in the diagram I think), the brown would be "DF", and the black one would be the "D-"



Following are some numbers from the alternator/stator area. Note, all wires are unplugged during this test. The wires in question are Y, DF, D-, and the 3 Yellow wires. Again, Y is the light blue wire on top, DF is the brown wire on top, D- is the black wire on the bottom left and the three yellow wires are the three yellow wires ;D

Between Y and DF = 18 Ohms
Between Y and D- = Open
Between DF and D- = Open
Between D- and Chassis = Open
Between Y and the Chassis = 3 Ohms
Between DF and the Chassis = 20 Ohms
Between the front and rear slip rings = 3 Ohms
Between the front slip ring and the Chassis = 13 Ohms
Between the rear slip ring and the Chassis = 10 Ohms
Between the three yellow wires (all combinations) = 1 Ohm
Between the three yellow wires and the Chassis = Open
Between the three yellow wires and the Chassis = 1 Ohm (with all wires plugged in on the alternator plate)


Next, Engine Running at about 1500 RPMs...

At the alternator:
Between each three yellow wires and the chassis = 3-5 Volts (AC) - The number would go up with higher RPM. It was late, so I only went up the around 1500 RPM.
Battery voltage would not go past 12.6 Volts, which is the same voltage as the bike being off.

At the rectifier:
Between blue wire and ground = 7-8 Volts. Again voltage would rise with throttle, but it was late and I could not rev higher that that 1500 RPM-ish.
Between the side red wire (with the number 2 printed on the insulation) and ground was 11 Volts and I don't think it fluctuated.


I tested a bunch of other combinations of stuff, but by this point my brain was fried, and I guess I only wrote down what I just posted above.

Last but not least.... since the diagrams available don't take into consideration the shape and sides of things, such as the rectifier... can you guys tell me it these are wires all in the correct place? (Especially the Red and the Blue wire), and also if the Y (light blue wire from alternator) wire is indeed connected to the solo spade connector in the back?



Thanks again for the help. I hope these numbers makes sense. I know Kiwi_Roy was waiting for me to turn in my homework... It's a little late, but class isn't over yet!

[Kiwi_Roy]

In the first picture the meter is clearly on the wrong range for testing diodes, it should be two clicks ccw pointing at the diode symbol however it seems to indicate some difference between the two rectifiers.

The meter should read about .5 Volts from each of the 3 inputs to the positive output.
Red lead to each input Black on positive output. With the leads reversed they will all read open circuit which I think is 1 as shown in the first picture.
Then if you put the red lead on negative you should read about 0.5 with the black lead on each of the 3 inputs, 1 if the leads are reversed.
Don't worry if the meter says 500 instead of 0.5 (the former is mV, latter is Volts, same thing)

In the second picture, is it possible someone ghas mixed the wires up i.e. should the two reds be together and the blue by itself.

In the last picture terminal Y is the bottom one
The one above is the grounded brush

How about a picture showing the wire ends at the regulator rectifier area.

The resistance readings you got around the slip rings are too high
Ring to ring is ok
DF to chassis I got 4.8 Ohms, 6 with new brushes (not bedded in)
With 20 Ohms the field current will be low, so will the alternator output.
Inspect the brushes closely, are the a carbon black or a copper colour, are the wire leads connected properly?
Do your brushes have wires attached which connect to the terminals?

[Groover]

Roy, thanks for the follow up. I'll get more details and post them. In the meantime, I guess I'm confused on which wires are labeled what letter on the alternator plate... Is "Y" then not the light blue wire?

Which wire color is "T" shown on this diagram on my alternator? It should be the light blue one according that what's going on on my bike, as the light blue wire (top left - brush?) is the one that plugs in to the back side of the rectifier (the same connection where I have the red lead on the first image where I'm testing the rectifiers). Is that not correct?



Also, could the incorrectly wired dash bulb wires be the root of my problem? I may try swapping those wires on the dash tonight if I get a chance and see what happens....

Thanks again.

[Kiwi_Roy]

No Y is the lower terminal marked "Y"
If you think of the 3 main windings "U", "V", "WW" they are connected together in a Y arrangement (commonly called Star)
The Y terminal is conected to the point where all 3 coils join.

Your brush resistances are far too high, is it possible they were changed out recently for brushes of the wrong material?
Brushes come in different materials depending on what they are used for, the brushes I just put in my alternator are sort of copper looking
Measure the resistance from the terminal to slip ring.
They must have wires attached that connect brush to the terminal. You are loosing all the Voltage in a bad connection there somewhere.
Check that the brushes aren't stuck in the holder and the springs are puhing them, You might also touch up the sliprings with some very fine emmery paper say 600 or 800 grit while it's spinning although I prefer to leave the black finish on there
BTW, I was surprised to find the brush to slipring resistance so high on mine, I expected it to be under 1 Ohm the new brushes were 2 Ohms each , yours is super high nearly 8 Ohms, you need to find out why.

Do you think that blue wire at the lamp is the same one that appears at the regulator, it does't look right, try putting it on the left where the red wire is at the moment, move the resd across where the blue is now.
I don't have an old regulator handy so I can't verify the terminal location, I'll look this evening, hopefully I didn't throw it out.



Here it is.
I sketched on how the diodes are connected, using this you can test each one with your multimeter on the diode range, i got an average reading of ~ 550 mV (0.55 Volts)  from positive lead ------>|------- negative lead, open when reversed.
Note: the 61 and D+ terminals are interchangeable, so also are the U, V & W, just put any yellow on any terminal.
Make sure the negative bus is well grounded through the bolts or with a separate wire.
Space the circuit board off any metal to avoid shorts.

The blue wire at the idiot light should be by itself on one side of the lamp, I suspect the other red goes to one of the other lamps.

Oooopps,  just looked again, you have the wires crossed at the alternator, the green wire goes to "Y" terminal at least if it's the same green wire I see in the regulator picture. (I know, it looks too short but that;s where it goes)

The black wire is a ground I think, verify that with your ohmmeter, It may not be required as the brush post upper left is not insulated but put it there anyway. I suspect it may be the ground for the Voltage regulator (25) to (28) in the partial drawing you posted just prior to this post, Luigi's drawings don't always show reality, check it out with your Ohmmeter.

Actually having the "Y" terminal grounded like it is should still work that's the way it is in electrical transformers on the street but you do loose a little bit from the two diodes on the Y (T) terminal of the rectifier. Some after market regulators leave it off altogether.
The regulator (28) in this case without a doubt needs a good ground, I'm not sure what would happen with it connected to the alternator Y as it appears to be.
 

BTW, I'm convinced your problem is related to the high brush resistance.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Somewhere you have a regulator with red black and I think a brown wire (shown as violet on the drawing) to the RH brush terminal. Sometimes these look like a relay, early ones were mechanical.

[Groover]

That is a great diagram and image markup! Nice job. It really does help a ton, helps me, and I'm sure others in the future. Also, thanks for clarifying that terminals 61 and D+ on the rectifier are interchangeable, especially since apparently mine are also reversed. I haven't had a chance to go back in the dash wiring again nor do any other testing, but I will this weekend likely. I did order the new parts, but I do want to at least run these last tests you suggested before swapping things out and hopefully get my wiring & connections in the right place before then, so thank you for your help on this, very much appreciated. I'll post a photo of the bottom of the regulator this evening or tomorrow morning, so no need to look for your old one.

In the meantime, I wanted to post this pic to clarify the path of the light blue wire coming from the alternator all the way to the rectifier. Are you suggesting that I swap to locations between the light blue and the black wires at the alternator plate? (the two wires on the left side of the image, top and bottom). For the first time today while looking at these images, I actually saw/noticed the "-" symbol stamped on the plate... which explains a lot actually why I thought the letters stamped were all skewed.... I might try that swap tonight, maybe that's the whole problem there?

Light blue wire path as currently wired (but possibly incorrect)


Thanks again.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Yes, they are definately crossed, note the letter "Y" just above the bottom terminal.
I suspect you may find the black wire goes to the regulator as it's ground, find the regulator and see if it is that wire.
The Blue wire at the light should be by itself with a switched 12 V on the other side, it may still be working somewhat but it's wrong

But still your brushes have too much resistance they start out about 3/4" long perhaps they are just so short the spring is not pushing hard enough, as a short term fix I have sometimes packed them out with something to get more tension.
Did you have a look at the colour?
Do you have a new set on order?

Have you got a good ground to the two bottom bolts holding the rectifier, they look a little suspect.

You need to get the resistance from DF to chassis down to 6 Ohms or less.

One thing thats confusing me a little your reading from DF to chassis was 20 Ohms but you said D- to chassis was open. on my bike D- is not insulated it's grounded directly to the end plate, as shown in the schematic.

[Groover]

Thanks Roy. I'll check the color of the of the current brushes in detail this evening. I will also swap the wires on both the alternator as well as on the dummy light on the dash, and I'll post results (may be tomorrow morning). While doing that, I'll also check the following resistance(s) again to be sure (it was late and a long day, so I may have messed up somewhere along the way).

All wires unplugged:

DF to Chassis
Y to Chassis
- to Chassis

Y to DF
Y to -

DF to Y
DF to -

Front slip ring to Rear slip ring
Front slip ring to chassis
Rear slip ring to chassis


I think that should cover it.

I do have the entire system on order that was linked a few sections up on this thread. If it all works by swapping this wires, I may or may not replace them once the parts come in, we'll see.

Thanks again for the assistance.