Author Topic: Need help / guidance (Read 23455 times)

father guzzi obrian · « **Reply #30 on:** April 17, 2015, 07:48:51 PM »

Before you start spending money on stuff, take your volt meter and assure the juice is getting where it needs to go. Also, did you check and clean the other end of the battery cables, positive on the starter solenoid and the ground. I have had problems with the ground before on my 02, you can also just swap your relays around, that will usually show if one is bad. Never had one go bad on a Cali, but on my V11 Lemans, they were a problem
Cheers

Rich M · « **Reply #31 on:** April 17, 2015, 07:57:23 PM »

Thanks for the guidance Kiwi_Roy and father guzzi obrian....Its appreciated....

Getting back to the relays.. They are all the same type of relays in the block, correct? I've been searching the web and have found cross reference numbers..and will go to a local auto parts store in the morning..if positive results are found as per the above advice... Want to see if this solves the problem..and if not, will order from one of the Guzzi guy's.....

Kiwi_Roy · « **Reply #32 on:** April 17, 2015, 08:36:30 PM »

There are two types, 4 pin and 5 pin.
The 5 pin variety can be used in every slot.
The 4 pin in every slot but the start position, which type do you have?
I'm not sure about the fuse layout on an 02 but you can use this as an example, on my 98 EV they are under the RH side cover.
Father Guzzi Obrian, can you shed some light on the location / suitable Carl Allison drawing?

The 2 fuses that feed the ECU should be alive at all times, sometimes the other fuses are through the ignition switch but either way
All fuses should be alive when the ignition switch is On
Fotoguzzi asked "Do you have all the wires on" there might be as many as 3 reds besides the large wire to the starter.

Looking at the relay bases the top pin numbered 30 should be alive, the ECU relays at all times, the others when the key is turned On
Your relays may be in a different order but you will have the same basic ones.

Report back with as much information as you can and we will soon have you on the road.

Do you have a multimeter for measuring the Voltage, if not get some sort of 12 Volt lamp with wires attached.

Rich M · « **Reply #33 on:** April 18, 2015, 05:44:47 AM »

Really appreciate all the assistance...and much obliged....

At the plant today and will not get out until early this evening...Will follow advice and tips Sunday moring, then report outcome....

Much Thanks agian eveyone...This is an awesome forum to belong to ;-T

Rich M · « **Reply #34 on:** April 18, 2015, 11:04:48 AM »

Been looking on line at a lot of schematics pertaining to the 2003 California Titanium... If I'm correct, there are only three (3) Minirelay switches for lights, injection and ECU.. Correct?

Sorry for being a bother.. but am really getting frustrated at this point in time, and know that it's a learning phase for me..

Kiwi_Roy · « **Reply #35 on:** April 18, 2015, 12:18:52 PM »

Most have 5

Start Relay (22), usually a 5 pin
Headlight Relay (21)
Sidestand / Neutral Relay (33) on this schematic they use it for heated grips, that's very unusual
ECU Relay (51)
ECU Power relay (50)
This is what I'm basing it on, a 2004 EV
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2004_EV_Catalytic.gif

I think your problem is a lot more basic than relays, to get the bike running we only need 3 so don't worry about getting them yet.
If you can get a good charge in the battery to start with we should be good.

Rich M · « **Reply #36 on:** April 18, 2015, 01:43:46 PM »

Quote from: Kiwi_Roy on April 18, 2015, 12:18:52 PM

Most have 5

Start Relay (22), usually a 5 pin
Headlight Relay (21)
Sidestand / Neutral Relay (33) on this schematic they use it for heated grips, that's very unusual
ECU Relay (51)
ECU Power relay (50)
This is what I'm basing it on, a 2004 EV
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2004_EV_Catalytic.gif

I think your problem is a lot more basic than relays, to get the bike running we only need 3 so don't worry about getting them yet.
If you can get a good charge in the battery to start with we should be good.

Much obliged Roy.. Went home for lunch and put a charge on the new Odyssey battery to replace the old.. Just wanted to cover all the bases because I'm not leaving the garage until it starts...

All the Best and enjoy the weekend..

Rich

Kiwi_Roy · « **Reply #37 on:** April 18, 2015, 02:21:33 PM »

It wouldn't hurt to take the side covers off ahead of time
I see photoguzzi said the relays and fuses are under the side cover

Rich M · « **Reply #38 on:** April 18, 2015, 03:21:10 PM »

Already done.. and awaiting activities in the morning

Rich M · « **Reply #39 on:** April 18, 2015, 05:21:23 PM »

Received the neutral switch today from Harpers, but does not look the same to me...

Hope I didn't screw up....

jackson · « **Reply #40 on:** April 18, 2015, 05:23:34 PM »

Quote from: Lyman1114 on April 18, 2015, 05:21:23 PM

Received the neutral switch today from Harpers, but does not look the same to me...

Hope I didn't screw up....

I don't know what the one in your bike looks like but that looks exactly like the one that I recently replaced in my V7 Classic. *I just looked up my receipt and that is the exact part number that I purchased. Both bikes may use the same one.........or they may not........but that IS definitely the switch that's used on my V7 small block. Check the parts diagram to confirm the part number.

Kiwi_Roy · « **Reply #41 on:** April 18, 2015, 06:51:32 PM »

Yours anything like this, you will only see the left hand part?
Nothing to wear out there

http://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=55&products_id=2970

Lets sort out the electrical issues first

Vasco DG · « **Reply #42 on:** April 18, 2015, 07:08:26 PM »

Looks like the same part but in the factory parts site the part# listed is GU19207220. No supercession listed.

Part umber 19.

Pete

Kiwi_Roy · « **Reply #43 on:** April 19, 2015, 06:11:39 AM »

Apparently the bit of plastic and brass that rubbed on a wart protruding from the shift drum is no longer good enough :(

Good morning Rich
If you jump back up to reply #29 and check the basic battery connection, second thoughts I will copy it down to keep it together.

Here's a couple of simple tests to check out the battery & connections
Attach the negative lead of your Voltmeter to a good chassis connection like under a bolt head, you need a reliable connection because your hands will be busy.

Positive probe directly on the Positive post (not the bolts or lugs), it should read 12+ Volts. if not let us know.

A/ While holding the probe on turn key on press start, it should keep reading at least 10 Volts. we are actually checking the ground
If it drops down to zero
B/ Move the Positive lead to the Negative battery post, jab it into the metal to get a good connection, key On, press Start
It should keep reading ~zero, If it gives a reading you have a bad ground connection. If the ground is bad any load on the positive will pull it from 12 Volts to zero making the negative go to minus 12

C/ If the Voltage in step "A" stayed at 12+ but nothing happened move the positive lead to the wire attached to the Positive post and try again

D/ Locate the fuses, jab the positive lead into each one (usually you can see a tiny bit of metal ecposed at the top) what do you see on each one, which ones are alive with the key Off, which ones with the key On, write it down and get back. I am trying to figure out the fuse layout

Find out where the main ground connects to the chassis or hopefully the gearbox, remove it clean and replace with some grease to keep away the corrosion. For grease I prefer petroleum Jelly aka Vaseline

Kiwi_Roy · « **Reply #44 on:** April 19, 2015, 06:35:14 AM »

There are two types, 4 pin and 5 pin.
The 5 pin variety can be used in every slot.
The 4 pin in every slot but the start position, which type do you have?
I'm not sure about the fuse layout on an 02 but you can use this as an example, on my 98 EV they are under the RH side cover.

The 2 fuses that feed the ECU should be alive at all times, sometimes the other fuses are through the ignition switch but either way
All fuses should be alive when the ignition switch is On
Fotoguzzi asked "Do you have all the wires on" there might be as many as 3 reds besides the large wire to the starter.

Looking at the relay bases the top pin numbered 30 should be alive, the ECU relays at all times, the others when the key is turned On
If you pull all the relays out. looking at the sketch above you will see the top socket [30] of each relay is either alive from a fuse wired direct to the battery or it's livened up by one of the switches thru a fuse, 12 Volts on the relay 30 is typical of most if not all guzzis
Note down which relays are alive all the time and which ones are wired through a switch, this will help identify them.

Your relays may be in a different order but you will have the same basic ones.
If someone else has the same bike 2003 California Titanium please comment on the relay order, lets start at the rear moving towards the front

While you have the relays out you can do a couple of tests on them, referring to the sketch upper RH side you will see a pin layout. Taking your Ohmmeter you should get zero ohms between 30 & 87A, an open circuit between 30 & 87, 100 - 120 Ohms between the coil pins 85 & 86
If you apply 12 VDC across the coil you should hear it click and the contacts 30-87 will close, 30-87A open. Don't use the bike battery to supply this test Voltage, it packs a power of hurt. A small 9 Volt transistor battery or old wall wort is perfect for this.

Rich M · « **Reply #45 on:** April 19, 2015, 07:18:30 AM »

Thanks follow all your assistance Roy..it's really appreciated and I owe you a few pints to say the least...

Just got home from shopping and heading to the garage now... Will provide an update on the results...

Once again...Much Thanks!

Rich M · « **Reply #46 on:** April 19, 2015, 08:49:01 AM »

Don't have the multi meter since it's at my son's home and used a 12 volt test lamp.. All seems good....

Replaced all the fuses anyway.. and found that the 5 amp fuse that I'm pointing to below.. was not energized until I turned the ignition on..

Relay size is mixed between 4 pin and 5 pin..See the below from left to right:

5, 4, 5, 4 and 4

OH my god.... Your never going to believe this.... I took the starter cap off so I can take a look where the neutral switch was.. Wiggled the wire connection and for the hell of it, tryed start... Fuel pump engaged, pushed the start, and fired right up...

What a sequence of events! On the positive side: 1.) Learned how to electrical trouble shoot, 2.) Replaced all the fuses, 3.) Have a spare 5 pin relay, 4.) Since I have the switch, going to replace.

However, the most important thing to me, was how the Wildguzzi community came to my assistance, and how Roy went above and beyond to get me up and running.. Indepted to you Roy.. and much obliged everyone!

Have a good weekend and all the Best!

Rich M

Rich M · « **Reply #47 on:** April 19, 2015, 08:51:39 AM »

Just for anyone who owns a 2003 Titanium.. Here is the fuse layout from under the side cover..

Kiwi_Roy · « **Reply #48 on:** April 19, 2015, 09:06:06 AM »

That's great news, good pictures, I assume you found a red wire on the large solenoid post. they quite often tap off there to feed the ignition switch rather than at the battery.
This is a fairly normal process, guys are not confident to dive into the electrics, once started though they end up learning a lot and finding the fault themselves, I knew it was something very simple but I didn't expect that ;-T
Your Sparky ticket is in the mail.

The two relays on the right are for the ECU as are the two fuses between them.
One of the 2 5 pin relays is the Start relay
If you unplug them one at a time and try starting you will soon figure out which. Another way of telling is to look into the relay base. the start relay will have a connector in the middle of the 3 small holes closest to you.
One relay is the Headlight, pulling that one will turn the headlight off, but the Start relay will also, Guzzi like to turn the lights off while you are cranking
Who knows what the other one is, Side-stand, Horn perhaps. I would need the correct schematic to know that. If you have the owners manual could you scan or photograph the schematic for me.

You found out all you need is a test light, that's good, about the only thing it won't tell you is state of battery charge. A $5 meter will tell you that.
Make sure you find where the main ground connects and refresh that connection.

fotoguzzi · « **Reply #49 on:** April 19, 2015, 09:35:46 AM »

shazamm! wasn't that cover a tricky piece to remove?

Rich M · « **Reply #50 on:** April 19, 2015, 11:19:53 AM »

Once again I echo my thanks to the members of this forum, and both fotoguzzi and Kiwi_Roy for their support and guidance...It was greatly appreciated... :bow

When I get to the plant in the morning, I'll scan the wiring diagram..and attach it to this thread...Hope it will help others if needed...

rodekyll · « **Reply #51 on:** April 19, 2015, 11:36:15 AM »

I don't know about the switch being correct. Did yours test bad?

Rich M · « **Reply #52 on:** April 19, 2015, 02:45:43 PM »

Quote from: rodekyll on April 19, 2015, 11:36:15 AM

I don't know about the switch being correct. Did yours test bad?

Neutral switch was not bad.. just the connection to it was loose... The part I purchased is identical to the OEM one installed..

Lannis · « **Reply #53 on:** April 19, 2015, 02:59:40 PM »

Quote from: Kiwi_Roy on April 19, 2015, 09:06:06 AM

You found out all you need is a test light, that's good, about the only thing it won't tell you is state of battery charge. A $5 meter will tell you that.

Very true, but knowing the state of the battery charge won't help you any. We don't care (much) about the state of charge except theoretically; we care about the ability of the battery to supply current.

Only a battery load tester will tell you that ....

Lannis

Rich M · « **Reply #54 on:** April 20, 2015, 07:44:23 AM »

2003 wiring and fuse diagrams

Chuck in Indiana · « **Reply #55 on:** April 20, 2015, 08:24:59 AM »

^^^^^^^
Which may or may not have some basis in reality.. ;D

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Author Topic: Need help / guidance (Read 23455 times)

father guzzi obrian

Vasco DG