How to check gearbox oil level v7? Screaming banshee sound!

[rastoga]

I recently got my '14 v7 stone back home from its first service.  When I took it out on a brief test ride I heard a horrible screaming noise from the engine area after a few minutes.  It came and went twice near the end of my 2 mile ride.  It was about 20 degrees F and the noise didn't change with clutch use or shifting.  

The engine oil level is good and the sound didn't appear to be from the final drive.  I provided my guzzi dealer with the specified AGIP fluids (I marked them with "motor", "gearbox", and "transmission" to supposedly make it dummy proof).  He returned the unused gearbox and transmission oil.  He used less than a 1/4 liter of the gearbox oil and about 1/2 liter of the transmission oil.  This doesn't really fit with the capacities specified in the manual. The manual is also confusing as to what is transmission and gearbox oil.  I would like to double check everything.  I couldn't find any way to check the gearbox oil in the owner's manual or the service manual.  Could someone kindly post how to check and change the gearbox oil?

Or is it the cold messing up the clutch?  The clutch lever has about 1-2mm of free play at the lever and I can easily find N once its warmed up, however I have changed the stock lever for an adjustable lever.

I would like to check the fluids and then start it up on a super cold day again.  If the sound repeats I will try to record it with my phone and post.

Thanks for your help.

[mwrenn]

The transmission oil, AGIP 85w140 goes in the rear drive.  Capacity is .17 liters.  The gearbox oil AGIP 85w90 goes in the transmission.  It holds 1 Liter.
Translation problems man!  
Hope they got it right...
You can go to www.guzzitech.com and page 7 or 8 under the resources tab has a service manual for the 2013 V7.
I like it cause it has pictures!!  Lol

[kevdog3019]

Gearbox is transmission. Final drive or rear drive is just that... Not a transmission. i would bet you have way less gearbox oil than is necessary. At least on the older sb's you can open the fill hole on the right side of gearbox and with the bike level, should see it about level to the hole (and wanting to crawl out). I'm not certain on the newer bikes. DON't ride the bike until you know it's right.

[Vasco DG]

Oh good grief!

No, don't ride it until you have checked the level. A full litre in thevgearbox and when you stand the bike upright some should flow out of the filler hole.

How far did you ride? Any distance over a few miles and you'll be asking the shop for a new gearbox, any distance at all will of caused damage. No, it won't be warranty because idiocy is not warrantable.

Pete

[father guzzi obrian]

Pete,
If the idiocy occurred at the dealer, wouldn't that be warranty work?  I've only had two guzzi's serviced at the dealer, my 02 Cal SS and my Griso 1100, both for their 600 mile service,  both done wrong and redone in my garage.  Amazing a dealer could not put in the proper oil or adjust the valves, or tighten up the sump so it did not leak like a sieve on my Cali. on the Griso, the dealer did not have a filter wrench, so the 10-40 was spewing out due to a loose filter, but I needed to add the correct oil anyway.... And I paid money to both of these dealers.  Never again.  I would rather do it myself, or even let a drunken Austrian have at it instead of the dealers we once had in So Cal.  Pro Italia might be a bit better, but my guzzi's never need work, so it doesn't really matter, just oil/filter changes
Cheers,

[rodekyll]

It's confusing.  On the one hand you've got a Moto Guzzi dealer doing a routine first service, and on the other, you've got a new owner apparently telling the dealer how to do the service.  Add in the owner's need to dummy proof the event with bad instructions -- which the shop followed, and neither seem to be qualified for their role.  So I suspect there's more of a back story.

[oldbike54]

 Doesn't Guzzi refer to the rear drive as the transmission ?

  Dusty

[mwrenn]

Doesn't Guzzi refer to the rear drive as the transmission ?

  Dusty

Yep.  It confused me when I got my V7C.

[crc]

I think the noise you heard from the gearbox is similar in effects as to the nunga nunga you hear when a oil light comes on, Donald ducked. you could fill the gearbox with oil and the noise may go away but I think the damage has already occured

[Vasco DG]

Pete,
If the idiocy occurred at the dealer, wouldn't that be warranty work?  I've only had two guzzi's serviced at the dealer, my 02 Cal SS and my Griso 1100, both for their 600 mile service,  both done wrong and redone in my garage.  Amazing a dealer could not put in the proper oil or adjust the valves, or tighten up the sump so it did not leak like a sieve on my Cali. on the Griso, the dealer did not have a filter wrench, so the 10-40 was spewing out due to a loose filter, but I needed to add the correct oil anyway.... And I paid money to both of these dealers.  Never again.  I would rather do it myself, or even let a drunken Austrian have at it instead of the dealers we once had in So Cal.  Pro Italia might be a bit better, but my guzzi's never need work, so it doesn't really matter, just oil/filter changes
Cheers,

No it's, not a 'Warranty' problem. Warranty is to cover factory defects, (I'm currently having to replace the alternator on that Cali 14 I sold last week because the original went 'Phut!' On the new owner.) the fact that the dealership doesn't have anybody in the workshop who can look at the amount of oil they drain out and then do a quick judgement of whether 250 ml is enough to go back in speaks volumes to me.

This is between the owner and the shop. It's not a 'Warranty' issue for the factory to address. It's an incompetence issue with the dealership and their staff.

Pete

[Chuck in Indiana]

Sounds like fifth gear is toast.. I'll bet the dealer that couldn't figure out how much oil to put in it will do a nice job of fixing that.. ~;

[sib]

Ignorance is very costly.  Whether it will cost you or the dealer remains to be determined.  However, at this point we can't rule out that there is, instead or additionally, a manufacturing defect somewhere in the drive train.  I'd suspect that little needle roller under 5th primary gear.  In any case, you have to determine what caused that whine, and whether anything is damaged, before you can be confident that it was temporary and due to low oil level, otherwise it will come back to bite you later.  Find a good mechanic who knows enough to do it right even when the customer provides confusing instructions.  Good luck.

[Kev m]

Aw heck, I'll weigh in...

I understand what Pete is saying. I.E. the factory should not (possibly is not) responsible for something that isn't a factory defect (assuming what's going on here is an underfilled gearbox that has now been damaged by the low oil level).

However, I do wonder what franchise law has to say about that. I mean a factory authorized dealer is a representative of the company and if they screw something up does that mean the factory is responsible?

Either way the OWNER is not responsible, unless they provided the wrong fluids or insufficient amounts and bad instructions, and even then a factory authorized dealer should have some responsibility to KNOW if an owner is giving them bad advice.

We also have no idea if they didn't ignore the owner and use their own fluids right?

Or as someone already said, is there some other factory defect causing the sound that he's hearing?

It does sound like a mess, and I have to wonder what instructions the owner gave them too.

[Sasquatch Jim]

Not enough oil in the tranny.

[biking sailor]

What I would do, FWIW. 

Go out and drain all the fluids out of the engine, gearbox, and transmission/final drive.  Collect and keep them separate (aluminum foil to direct the fluid into plastic coffee containers, with lids, work well for me).  Examine what came out and if not a full liter out of the gearbox and approx. .2 liters out of the transmission/final drive, and near 2 liters out of the engine, I would take pictures and then contact the dealer/shop and Moto Guzzi customer service to let them know what happened and what I found.

If either one offered me a new bike in exchange (highly unlikely), I would take it.  Otherwise, I would make sure it was "on record", keeping very good notes and recordings, along with pictures, and then fill the bike back up with the proper fluids in the proper amount (record this also).  Then I would ride the bike and try not to worry about it.

If it goes well, good on you for recognizing it after only a couple miles and getting it sorted before any lasting damage. If it doesn't go well, present everything back to the dealer and Moto Guzzi and see how far it has to go, litigation even.

Others may have better ideas for a course of action, so consider all the good advice gotten here.

Good luck.

[rastoga]

Just to clarify... About 450ml of 85w-90 was used and about 150ml of 85W-140 was used.  I can't be certain where he used what.  Although from the fluids remaining in the bottles it seems correct (perhaps I need to add a bit of the 85w-90).  The back story is that the dealer doesn't use or stock AGIP products and would have substituted 15w-50 motor oil for the specified 10w-60 if I hadn't provided it.  His comment was it's hard to get a good 10w-60.  Additionally, as per this forum, the dealer doesn't have a stellar reputation.  I used him because the first service was included with my purchase.

No instructions were given to the dealer other than to use the fluids I provided.

[Kev m]

Just to clarify... About 450ml of 85w-90 was used and about 150ml of 85W-140 was used.  I can't be certain where he used what.  Although from the fluids remaining in the bottles it seems correct (perhaps I need to add a bit of the 85w-90).  The back story is that the dealer doesn't use or stock AGIP products and would have substituted 15w-50 motor oil for the specified 10w-60 if I hadn't provided it.  His comment was it's hard to get a good 10w-60.  Additionally, as per this forum, the dealer doesn't have a stellar reputation.  I used him because the first service was included with my purchase.

No instructions were given to the dealer other than to use the fluids I provided.

No, you don't need to add "a bit" of 85w-90, IF the 450mL was all that was used, you need to add MORE THAN HALF OF CAPACITY. That's dangerously low.

I kinda agree with Pokey. Bring it back, trailer it if you can.

I would NOT ride it until I knew proper fluid levels are in it. But I would also not touch it in case the dealer might claim I interfered with it.

I take it the dealer in question is the one you've mentioned before.... yikes...

[fotoguzzi]

a friend had a SB when new it made a screaming noise too,.. I think it was the throw out bearing and not a hard fix.

[Perazzimx14]

If the dealer screwed up the oil capacities I can't imagine how the valves were checked and/or adjusted.

Unfortunately the OP is now forced to deal with this dealer. If they screwed up something as simple as a fluids/filter change I can't imagine I'd want them breaking down the transmission for a look see or replacing a transmission.

The OP is caught firmly between a rock and a hard place.

[sign216]

I agree that this is between the owner and the dealer, but it's good to notify Guzzi USA, so they are aware of an incompetent franchise.

Try to get the dealer to inspect and repair,  or at least own up to the problem. This might have to go to small claims court.

It's also possible that with full fluids the bike will run fine.

[Triple Jim]

It's also possible that with full fluids the bike will run fine.

Very true.  My out of warranty H2 made a similar noise when a leaking shift shaft seal caused the transmission oil level to drop very low.  When I stopped on the median of the DC Beltway and unscrewed the dipstick, oil vapor was all I saw.  I poured some 2-stroke oil into the transmission to limp home, then drained it, fixed the seal, and refilled the transmission, and after tens of thousands of miles and 35 more years, the transmission is still quiet and working perfectly.

BUT...  I would not be satisfied with a new motorcycle that was subjected to that, and may have trouble unexpectedly, caused by the low oil condition, at any time in the future, especially because it can be dealt with now, at the dealer's expense.

[ken farr]

Pete,
If the idiocy occurred at the dealer, wouldn't that be warranty work?  I've only had two guzzi's serviced at the dealer, my 02 Cal SS and my Griso 1100, both for their 600 mile service,  both done wrong and redone in my garage.  Amazing a dealer could not put in the proper oil or adjust the valves, or tighten up the sump so it did not leak like a sieve on my Cali. on the Griso, the dealer did not have a filter wrench, so the 10-40 was spewing out due to a loose filter, but I needed to add the correct oil anyway.... And I paid money to both of these dealers.  Never again.  I would rather do it myself, or even let a drunken Austrian have at it instead of the dealers we once had in So Cal.  Pro Italia might be a bit better, but my guzzi's never need work, so it doesn't really matter, just oil/filter changes
Cheers,

......from my experience, wait no dealer bashing... ::) ::)

Seriously, who is this "dealer" that keeps doing this.  We need to know, and you need to go elsewhere.

Sport Cycle Pacific in Santa Barbara is no more.  I have used Thousand Oaks Vespa-Aprilia-Moto Guzzi and was pleased with the work.
Not so much with Pro Italia......

kjf

[boatdetective]

No!  That will take away any leverage you have with the dealer. 

Call the dealer.  Tell him you want to return the bike due to the noise.  Do not ride it.  Witness them draining and measuring the oil.  That way all the cards are on the table and everyone can see them.  Go from there.

Absolutely on point here. DO NOT mess with the fluids. First step: sit down and very carefully write out  a bullet list of the events. NO invective, no conjecture.
Mark the transmission filler with several very light "witness" marks that scribe into the cap and the case. Make it discreet. Photograph the cap and marks. This way, you can tell if the cap is loosened. The picture on your digital camera will be date stamped.
Next, contact dealer and let them know the problem. The contact can be made by phone- but you absolutely need a copy sent email for written record.
You want to be present when the bike is looked at and the sump drained. Do NOT budge on this. Do NOT accept "we're really busy and will get back to you". The manager should be there also.

If it turns out they did not add proper levels- I would rest my case on the fact that they are the dealer, not you. This is a situation referred to as "bailment". The bike was left in their care, custody, and control. They bear full responsibility for the work- no matter what you told them. 

The existing lube oil can be sent to a lab to check for wear metals. They can tell you if the levels are high enough for concern (to be fair- it's a  new box and some initial wear metal is probably normal during break in).  If the levels appear too high, I would expect the box to be opeend for inspection. If the shop cannot produce the special tools necessary to open up a small block case- I would tell them that you want to send the unit out to a competent third party shop for the work- you should not expect a shop that has already exhibited incompetence with the most basic service to "learn" how to repair a small block trans at your expense.

Given the circumstances and if it is as cut and dried as you state, i would be inflexible with the terms. One demonstration of your intent would be to produce a form from your district court that is used to file a small claim. 

It goes without saying that you should photograph everything before and after. Get the bike overall, the VIN, trans overall, the returned bottles showing oil left over (make your own pper dipsticks and photograph them against the outside of the bottles.

Retain all evidence (bottles) and seal them (wrap electrical tape around the caps).

...can you tell that I work investigating failures?

[Kev m]

Boat,

That sounds like EXCELLENT advice.

But it also sounds like something that might want to make the average guy slight his wrists.

As far as I can tell all the poor guy did was bring his new bike into the selling dealer for its first service and provide them the fluids.

If it were me faced with this I think I'd be so mad I couldn't see straight never mind wanting to deal with all of that you just advised...

YIKES.

[boatdetective]

I know, I know- it sounds horiffic. However, it's just the basic step by step of dealing with evidence. It's easier than it sounds. If you are a pessimist (check) and see things get twisted and taken out of context (check) and see people squirm and lie on a regular basis (double check), then this is the way to protect yourself and "preserve the scene". I have to take the same approach for work. The other year, I had a nasty small claims battle over my V50. I won and was awarded damages.

[slowmover]

This is a complex state of affairs.

[boatdetective]

This is a complex state of affairs.

It may seem so- but if you want to present an argument- it's what you have to do. Otherwise, you'll find yourself before a magistrate saying. "but I'm telling you- that's the way it was." People don't want you just to "tell" them a story- they expect you to "show" them.

[boatdetective]

I don't think he should deal with this himself. This is what a lawyer is for.

The dealership is holding all the cards and calling all the shots without a lawyer involved.

Otherwise this dealership is going to take the easy way out and just say the transmission is OK.

Lawyer can get this bike sent to an independent shop and properly inspected and charged to this dealership for any and all work. The lawyer can secure a court order to do just that.

He still has the bike. He's free to take it anywhere he wishes- no need for a lawyer to do that. Even if he gets a lawyer ($$$), the lawyer is going to tell him to document everything exactly as I just told you.  The money at stake is way below what would justify an attorney. I only mentioned small claims as a back up plan. If you get your ducks lined up and document everything- then you minimize the chance for the dealer to potentially weasel out of any professional liability. Once again, this is assuming that there is damage in the first place.

[John A]

If it turns out that all that happens is an oil level adjustment the dealer should buy you an extended warranty.

[boatdetective]

If it turns out that all that happens is an oil level adjustment the dealer should buy you an extended warranty.

As noted before- if there is advanced wear due to the low oil- it should show up in an oil sample (fairly cheap). I would imagine that a squealing sound would be a bearing. If there is any evidence of metal wear- then i'd open up the box- i wouldn't wait for a failure down the road that may or may not be taken care of by a warranty.