Author Topic: Chinese Alternator problem on a Stelvio NTX  (Read 21169 times)

Offline Karl Von

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Chinese Alternator problem on a Stelvio NTX
« on: March 29, 2015, 06:09:41 AM »
In a long list of problems with the Stelvio NTX from hell (Bad Rear End, ECU, Starter, Camshafts, Fuel Tank, Fuel Pump, and Clutch) the charging system had died.  My father bought this bike new and has about had it with this bike.

We have determined  the charging issue is the alternator. We removed the alternator (which is no easy task) and found it is made in China by the Chenqdv Huachuan electric company            ( Guzzi# 886255)



According to the parts books, this alt is used on the Norge 8v, Cali 1400 and 2011-2015 Stelvio NTX.  It is rated at 55 Amps

The Griso (07-15) uses a 55 Amp Bosh Unit Guzzi # GU05712431 (Bosch # 0124120012)

Both Alternators have the same mounting set up, belt pulley and electrical plug. Does anyone know any differences in these two alternators.  We would like to give the Chinese Alt the flotation test (throw it in a lake and see if it floats) and swap it with a Bosch unit, since they are both rated at 55 amps.  

I know that the NTX, CALI 1400 and Norge 8V have a lot more electrical load than the Griso (heated grips, driving lights, power jacks). My thought is that Piaggio just gets the Chinese junk a lot cheaper than the Bosch units and will eventually phase them into all the big block models.

« Last Edit: March 29, 2015, 07:30:39 AM by Karl Von »

Offline mtiberio

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Re: Chinese Alternator problem on a Stelvio NTX
« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2015, 06:33:42 AM »
12V x 55A = 660 Watts, more than enough for everything.
if it fits, why hesitate?


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Re: Chinese Alternator problem on a Stelvio NTX
« Reply #2 on: March 29, 2015, 07:08:59 AM »
WOW!!!!So that is what a flotation test is.  OK, I'll bite.  If it floats what do you do?   And if it sinks?  :BEER:
Matt

Offline Kiwi_Roy

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Re: Chinese Alternator problem on a Stelvio NTX
« Reply #3 on: March 29, 2015, 07:19:20 AM »
12V x 55A = 660 Watts, more than enough for everything.
if it fits, why hesitate?

Because the Bosch one was actually tested to put out 12V x 55A = 660 Watts
The Chinese one only has a label.

If you want to buy a cheap knock off that hasn't had the work put into it you will get what you pay for.
It's a sad day for Guzzi if they are going to stoop so low.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2015, 07:21:22 AM by Kiwi_Roy »
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Offline Karl Von

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Re: Chinese Alternator problem on a Stelvio NTX
« Reply #4 on: March 29, 2015, 07:20:53 AM »
We just want to make sure there is not a feed back circuit or some other difference inside the Alt that is specific to the NTX, Norge 8V and Cali 1400 models that is not on the Bosch Griso Alt.  From what we have been told, the ECU receives a signal from the charging circuit before supplying voltage to certain electrical circuits.

About ten miles before the battery went dead, we noticed the headlights on the bike shut down.  I guess when the voltage drops, the ECU diverts all power to the ignition system and puts it in limp mode.  We did not know the Alt was not charging, as we never saw a warning light and the bike was running fine.  All of a sudden it just died and would not restart.  We checked and the battery was dead.  With all the trouble with this bike, we should have just pushed it into the woods and reported it stolen.....

Offline Karl Von

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Re: Chinese Alternator problem on a Stelvio NTX
« Reply #5 on: March 29, 2015, 07:27:57 AM »
Because the Bosch one was actually tested to put out 12V x 55A = 660 Watts
The Chinese one only has a label.

If you want to buy a cheap knock off that hasn't had the work put into it you will get what you pay for.
It's a sad day for Guzzi if they are going to stoop so low.

The Chinese alt is the stock factory supplied Alt from Guzzi on the NTX, Norge 8V and Cali 1400 but the Griso gets the Bosch, so there must be a reason for the difference.  We just do not want to buy a Bosch unit for 300 dollars and find it does not work, or damages the ECU.  We have contacted a few moto electric shops and they can work on the bosh units but do not want to touch the no name Chinese unit.   As for getting what you pay for, I guess 16 grand does not by much these days.

Griso Alt
« Last Edit: March 29, 2015, 07:32:42 AM by Karl Von »

Offline fotoguzzi

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Re: Chinese Alternator problem on a Stelvio NTX
« Reply #6 on: March 29, 2015, 07:39:55 AM »
If buying it from Pinwall cycle on ebay you best be very sure it's what is described because they often have no idea.

sorry to hear about your Dad, do they have a lemon law in your state?
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Re: Chinese Alternator problem on a Stelvio NTX
« Reply #7 on: March 29, 2015, 07:41:54 AM »
Both my 98 and 99 ST2's did the same thing.  Turned out to be the wiring between the alternator and the regulator.  :BEER:
Matt

Offline bad Chad

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Re: Chinese Alternator problem on a Stelvio NTX
« Reply #8 on: March 29, 2015, 07:48:53 AM »

If you want to buy a cheap knock off that hasn't had the work put into it you will get what you pay for.
It's a sad day for Guzzi if they are going to stoop so low.
[/quote]

I challenge you to find any mass produced motor vehicle that does not contain at lest some Chinese parts.
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Offline Karl Von

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Re: Chinese Alternator problem on a Stelvio NTX
« Reply #9 on: March 29, 2015, 07:50:28 AM »
If buying it from Pinwall cycle on ebay you best be very sure it's what is described because they often have no idea.

sorry to hear about your Dad, do they have a lemon law in your state?

He could have turned the bike in under the Tennessee lemon law when he first bought it.  The bearings literally fell out of the rear drive at 5,000 miles and it took Guzzi almost 3 months to get the drive replaced.  He loved the bike and just thought it was one of those things.  Then the starter shorted out and fried the ECU which killed the fuel pump according to the dealer.  They also had to replace the fuel tank for some reason.  All of this was done under warranty.   After the warranty expired the lobes on the cam went flat.  Guzzi supplied the updated roller cams but he had to pay the labor.  He had the same issue with the clutch where it squalls when it is released and is jerky.  Guzzi supplied the updated clutch unit but it is up to him to get it installed.  We ran into the Guzzi reps at bike week and they told him, he needs to trade it in on a new Stelvio NTX..   ::)

Offline Karl Von

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Re: Chinese Alternator problem on a Stelvio NTX
« Reply #10 on: March 29, 2015, 07:54:07 AM »
Both my 98 and 99 ST2's did the same thing.  Turned out to be the wiring between the alternator and the regulator.  :BEER:
Matt

These alternators have a internal regulator. We have found these units are also used on some Euro GM cars.  We have checked all the connectors and wiring and everything meters good.  There has been some issues on the Griso models with crimp on connectors in the charging circuit.  We were hoping that this was the case but so far it all points to the Alt unit.

Offline Wayne Orwig

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Re: Chinese Alternator problem on a Stelvio NTX
« Reply #11 on: March 29, 2015, 08:49:21 AM »
According to the parts books, this alt is used on the Norge 8v, Cali 1400 and 2011-2015 Stelvio NTX.  It is rated at 55 Amps

The Griso (07-15) uses a 55 Amp Bosh Unit Guzzi # GU05712431 (Bosch # 0124120012)

Norge, Cali 1400, Stelvio NTX, have ABS. The Griso does not (does it?). Maybe the Bosch unit is a touch longer. Are there any ABS bits behind the alternator?
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Offline Karl Von

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Re: Chinese Alternator problem on a Stelvio NTX
« Reply #12 on: March 29, 2015, 09:16:19 AM »
Norge, Cali 1400, Stelvio NTX, have ABS. The Griso does not (does it?). Maybe the Bosch unit is a touch longer. Are there any ABS bits behind the alternator?

That is a good point, I will check it out.  The guzzi rep at Daytona said they are adding ABS and traction control to the Griso and V7 line very soon.

Offline leafman60

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Re: Chinese Alternator problem on a Stelvio NTX
« Reply #13 on: March 29, 2015, 09:53:16 AM »
Have you actually tested the stock alternator?

The problem you describe matches the symptoms of the blown Big Fuse caused by the stock auxiliary lamps shorting out and killing the alternator energizing circuit.

Your alternator may be good and your main fuse behind the right side cover blown.

Offline pyoungbl

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Re: Chinese Alternator problem on a Stelvio NTX
« Reply #14 on: March 29, 2015, 10:18:59 AM »
The NTX alternator has not been a problem on any of the bikes I have seen or heard of.  That is not say yours ain't bad, just not a common problem.  What is a common problem, and consistent with what you described, is the aux lights shorting out...taking out the dreaded 30A fuze that excites the alternator.  Then the bike is running off battery power, for a while.  Double/triple check that fuze and that whole circuit.  The fuze is NOT under the seat, it is behind the triangular panel just below the seat on the right side of the bike.  

Bottom line, you are not going to be happy with that bike so it is best to get it fixed and move on.

Best of luck.
Peter Y.
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Offline Karl Von

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Re: Chinese Alternator problem on a Stelvio NTX
« Reply #15 on: March 29, 2015, 10:40:03 AM »
The NTX alternator has not been a problem on any of the bikes I have seen or heard of.  That is not say yours ain't bad, just not a common problem.  What is a common problem, and consistent with what you described, is the aux lights shorting out...taking out the dreaded 30A fuze that excites the alternator.  Then the bike is running off battery power, for a while.  Double/triple check that fuze and that whole circuit.  The fuze is NOT under the seat, it is behind the triangular panel just below the seat on the right side of the bike.  

Bottom line, you are not going to be happy with that bike so it is best to get it fixed and move on.

Best of luck.
Peter Y.

I will pass the info to my father.  He loves the bike but it is getting to the point where he does not trust it.  He does a lot of long distance trips to rallies around the US.  His last trip up to Maine he rode his old 96 Cali which has never given any problems.  On his first trip out when he bought the ntx new was from Tennessee to Seattle and back.  He was in Missouri on his way back when the bearings fell out of the rear drive and he had to trailer it back to Tennessee. On his way to Barbers, in Alabama, the engine valve train was getting loud, so they checked it and the clearance was loose and they adjusted the valves.  All seemed well till he got near home and the noise started up again.  They checked and the valve was loose again.  He contacted the dealer who told him of the cam issue.  The cam lobe was wearing down.  The dealer installed the new 2015 roller cam design, so hopefully that issue is done. 

The bike has always been taken care of with all the regular maintenance done at the dealer, so the bike has not been abused.  I guess he just got a bad apple.  Maybe this is the last issue with the bike.

Offline ChuckH

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Re: Chinese Alternator problem on a Stelvio NTX
« Reply #16 on: March 29, 2015, 12:43:13 PM »
....About ten miles before the battery went dead, we noticed the headlights on the bike shut down.  I guess when the voltage drops, the ECU diverts all power to the ignition system and puts it in limp mode.  We did not know the Alt was not charging, as we never saw a warning light and the bike was running fine.  All of a sudden it just died and would not restart.  We checked and the battery was dead.  With all the trouble with this bike, we should have just pushed it into the woods and reported it stolen..

I agree with Peter Y. and Leafman, check that 30A fuse to see if it is blown.  If so, replace it and don't turn on the Running Lights until you have installed a separate fuse in the lighting circuit to each one of them.  Ride safe.
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Offline youcanrunnaked

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Re: Chinese Alternator problem on a Stelvio NTX
« Reply #17 on: March 29, 2015, 01:14:02 PM »
Sorry for your Dad's troubles.

I couldn't help noticing that the Bosch unit you are thinking of using is labeled "Made in India."  So, if you wanted to go with a non-Asian made alternator, or at least a first-world made one.... ?
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Offline Antietam Classic Cycle

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Re: Chinese Alternator problem on a Stelvio NTX
« Reply #18 on: March 29, 2015, 01:25:20 PM »
I thought they were made by Nippon Denso (Japan) on the early CARC bikes.
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Offline Karl Von

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Re: Chinese Alternator problem on a Stelvio NTX
« Reply #19 on: March 29, 2015, 02:15:10 PM »
I did see some denso units that were used on the early first gen Stelvios, Breva 1100 and Griso 4V but I believe they were only a 40 amp unit.  My fathers bike is a 2012.  Like one of the previous post stated, it seemed they changed alternators when they added the ABS and traction control.  I know many companies have there products made in China, India and Mexico but those factories have to meet certain specs and quality control.  What is odd about this alternator is it is not built by any regular electronics supplier (Bosch, Hitachi, Valeo, Denso, Mitsubishi, etc..).  The problem with using a off brand alternator is trying to get it rebuilt or get parts for it. 

We are going to look a the running light fuse issue before going further with the Alt.  Hopefully it just something simple like this.  He did take the starter to a local auto parts store and they only got 12V out of it but they were not sure about the plug set up.

Offline pyoungbl

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Re: Chinese Alternator problem on a Stelvio NTX
« Reply #20 on: March 29, 2015, 06:03:33 PM »
Karl, there is a very long thread here all about the aux lights and the problems associated with them.  In that thread it talks about the circuit...that it feeds some of the lights as well as triggering the alternator.  You might want to take a close look (an eye test, to be sure) at Greg Bender's wiring diagram to confirm exactly what is on that circuit.  My NTX is a '12, as are Leafman's and ChuckH.  I'm at 23K miles, Leafman at about 40K, and ChuckH probably has 30K+.  Except for that darn 30A fuze we have not had any electrical problems but each of us has had to deal with the aux lights shorting out.  It's guaranteed to happen unless one has been extremely careful with the routing of the wires within the light housing.  I'm betting that you will find the problem to be with the aux lights and that you have gained lots of unnecessary wrenching experience taking the alternator off.  Heck, I might need to get some hints some day when I have to replace my alt belt so please take some pictures.

Peter Y.
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Offline Karl Von

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Re: Chinese Alternator problem on a Stelvio NTX
« Reply #21 on: March 29, 2015, 06:36:36 PM »
My father checked out the 30amp fuse and it was fine.  He metered the driving lights and they checked out ok, so he is going to do some more digging and see what he can come up with.  He did say the Alt space was tight, so it is doubtful that the bosch unit would fit in there.

Offline Sasquatch Jim

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Re: Chinese Alternator problem on a Stelvio NTX
« Reply #22 on: March 29, 2015, 07:35:06 PM »
WOW!!!!So that is what a flotation test is.  OK, I'll bite.  If it floats what do you do?   And if it sinks?  :BEER:
Matt

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 If it sinks, you don't have to.
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Offline bad Chad

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Re: Chinese Alternator problem on a Stelvio NTX
« Reply #23 on: March 29, 2015, 08:57:00 PM »
If it sinks, then you know it was innocent.
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Offline Karl Von

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Re: Chinese Alternator problem on a Stelvio NTX
« Reply #24 on: April 01, 2015, 07:53:54 AM »
My father took the Alt down to a automotive electrical shop.  They said the alternator is a Denso copy and it is putting out near 14V.  So he is going to reinstall it and start chasing down the wiring harness.  So far the driving light circuit and fuses have checked out fine.  Let the fun begin.

Offline old head

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Re: Chinese Alternator problem on a Stelvio NTX
« Reply #25 on: April 01, 2015, 08:26:16 AM »
just because it is putting out volts doesn't mean it is putting out enough amps.

I had a Nissan that would keep the battery charged during the day, but at night the battery would go dead.

I had it checked and it also showed voltage.  I changed the battery, belt, but eventually changed the alternator and it fixed it.

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Offline Mike Harper

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Re: Chinese Alternator problem on a Stelvio NTX
« Reply #26 on: April 01, 2015, 09:02:02 AM »
The new electrical systems have some really thin air gaps  (Rotor to Stator clearances). If the rotor is dragging even slightly it will cause voltage spikes and serious issues and be almost untraceable.

The permanent magnet alternators are sometimes very difficult to install without the magnetic force being a real issue in keeping the rotor and stator apart.

Look for scuff marks on the rotor and the stator for signs of contact.

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Re: Chinese Alternator problem on a Stelvio NTX
« Reply #27 on: April 01, 2015, 02:10:58 PM »
The Chinese just bought Pirelli tires so...

Lots of Bosch parts are made in China. The quality control is incumbent on the brand name and a lot of the factories over there run 3 shifts making the exact same parts but sell under no name brands.

Offline nikwax

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Re: Chinese Alternator problem on a Stelvio NTX
« Reply #28 on: April 01, 2015, 04:10:22 PM »
I think you'll find that Chengdu Huachuan is where the part was made, not the name of the company. Manufacturer is Zhejiang Zhengtian Electric Manufacturing Co.,Ltd.


JFZ 155 looks to be an automotive alternator, used by Kia, Iveco, etc.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2015, 04:11:22 PM by nikwax »
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Offline nikwax

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Re: Chinese Alternator problem on a Stelvio NTX
« Reply #29 on: April 01, 2015, 04:15:13 PM »
Lots of everything is made in China these days, auto parts included. Including the name brands. Bosch has factories all over the world including the US, Europe, India, South America, Mexico, and China.


Brand names and country of origin aren't necessarily indicators of quality.
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