Author Topic: California hydro . Service action camshaft... Hydraulic tappets ..Help needed  (Read 19592 times)

Adamus

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Welcome everyone. This is my first post here. Im really happy to się so much MG fans ...I really count on you guys..

From beginning

I bought 2003 MG California in 2008 with 15tkm on tacho. This hydro Beauty was running excellent until last sommer. Some funny nosie has started to come out from right side.
On cold motor everythink was ok but when the motor became hot, the clickig was very anoying comming from intake valve at right cylinder. Today I have 40 tkm and bitg issue with hydraulic tappets. I opened right head to search for root cause.I found one tappet at intake valve which looked like somebody opened it before..so my suspition pushed my to exchange this tappet ... Of course situation hasnt change at all...than i found out this forum and many informations that this type has a general issue with timming system and hydraulic lifters. So i took my Vin mumber to My local MG dealer ( I live in Poland - eastern Europe) and asked him for reacall action ... The answere was really astonishing... "There was no recall action for your motobike except exhange of part of front suspension...." This is somethink what is really hard to belive  to me because all sympthoms of failure are redirecting my to camshaft ans hydraulic system.
The situation for today is that I replaced hydraulic tappets but...i had to put 2mm washer under tappet to be able to delete gap between rocker arm and pushrood...anyway on sergice instructin there are visible washers but in my case below thia bloody tappet washer was missing. Could somebody check in your country my Vin number if camshaft recall actin is also asigned to my bike??? I have  a feeling that my dealer wants to charge  me for repair and all parts. ..so guys please check my VIN ZGUKDC1203M111746.. Meantime I will check oil pressure for hot and cold engine. One last think.. Since I bought it I used 15w50 oil...because MG dealer suggested this ....today I know that 5w40 should be used for hydrofornia....any ideas how to resolve this problem?..
Thx

Vasco DG

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Can you post up a picture of the valves and rocker gear with the tappet cover off the engine. This is the first step in determining if the recall is needed or has been carried out properly.

Unfortunately it may be that your bike was supposed to have had the recall performed and it has been noted as having been done but the work may not of been carried out. It could also be that it wasn't carried out correctly.

Getting any further action is likely to be very difficult simply because the machine is now over twelve years old. If the work is recorded as having been performed then I'm afraid it may well be that you have no recourse but to try and find the parts to fix it yourself.

A failure may also be down to the oil pump being damaged by a previous failure.

Pete

Vasco DG

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Just re-reading your post are you suggesting that you have simply replaced the lifter and removed the clearance by adding shims beneath it? If so I suggest you do not start the engine or ride it again as the tappet is below the lifter and it is this wearing away that is providing the excessive clearance. Eventually the foot of the tappet will wear away completelyandthe lifter and pushrod may fall through and cause damage to the crankcase or barrel.

I the picture below you can see the tappet, part# 2 and above it the lifter, part# 20. You cannot access or remove the tappets from the top of the engine. They have to be withdrawn through the front cam bearing or by dropping the sump after the cam is removed.



Pete

Online rodekyll

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I'm concerned about that unadjustable tappet.  I've done some of these procedures and don't recall having to cheat that way to get my tappet preload right.  I've always been able to put in the adjusting slug, turn down the adjuster to specs, replace the slug with the real lifter and be some with it.  I'm worried that as Pete says, either the bottom of the cam follower is being ground down or the cam lobe itself is shedding.  Could be both.  Could be a simple bent pushrod.  I think I'd drop the pan and inspect for chunks in the oil and sump before doing much more with it.

Wildgoose Chase Moto Guzzi


dilligaf

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English is the common language  of the EU.   ;D  :BEER:
Matt

Offline krglorioso

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Adamus:  Sorry to bring more possible bad news, but your 2003 California model may be one that came with a single plate clutch.  These do not last much beyond the present distance your bike has covered.  There is a rubber plug pressed into the clutch cover just above the brake pedal.  If you remove the plug, the type of clutch, single or dual plate, will be revealed to one who knows what to look for.  If you don't take it to a Guzzi dealer. 

There is another mandatory inspection of the early "hydro" models and this is the front fork's lower triple clamp.  The steel tube of the steering stem is a press fit into the triple clamp.  Some of these (marked "35-02" usually, had the hole for the steering stem drilled a tiny bit undersized.  The result is that when the steering stem was pressed into the hole, the casting of the triple clamp cracked radially from the hole.  It is very easy to examine the bottom of your bike's triple clamp for cracks.  My understanding is that Guzzi will warranty defective lower triple clamps regardless of age of bike since this is a serious safety problem. 

If all this is disappointing, I own two "hydro" Stones, a 2003 and a 2004, properly sorted and upgraded, and they are wonderful bikes.

Ralph
Ralph

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Adamus

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Hi everyone

thx for answere to my topic!!!

So...it seems that I have a total disaster here.I measured oil preasure today.On cold engine I have 4bar on iddlespeed and at any speed of crankshaft.
That means that overflow valve works ok and the preasure is set to 4 bar.
After 15minutes ,when the motor becomes hot ,oil preasure dopped down to  about 1 bar.)))
Does anyone know what should be the oil pressure value for hydro-cali (on cold and hot engine)??

@ Vasco DG - Of course I put orginal lifter into the engine. I just put shims between follower and lifter. I did not replace lifter wit shims only.)))

@Rodekyll -pushrods are ok - they are not bent..Yes it is strange that I need to put there shim between follower and lifter in size of 2 mm to get the proper presetting! That  means that follower of cam lobe is worn out. But on other hand you can see in explode view that orginally MG put there shims!! Of course my local dealer did not know about it!!I asked him several times about that so he was really surprised..

link to video from measurement

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-MWYIc_fdM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOLhnXcIgSA

you can see here rocker amr type.


PS. Sorry for my English..yes I know I need to improove it to comunicate it in better way especially when using technical statements.







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Being a hydro, it can be is probably the cam lobe itself that is going flat.  One of the design changes was to change the oil holes in the hydro cam to better oil the lobes.

My hydro runs at pressure relief whenever it's off idle until it's really warmed up -- which doesn't happen much inn Sitka.  At idle it will drop below 20# at idle on a hot day.  I have an alarm set for 10# (not that 10# at idle is a bad thing, but that's when I want to know about it).  The only time the alarm has flashed is once on Canada day when I got caught in hot weather on a looooong uphill grade in the stop-and-slow traffic of what turned out to be a parade.  I pulled off for lunch to let the traffic thin and the bike cool down.

the really memorable part of the stop was when I was getting ready to leave.  Two guys who'd been arguing inside came out, got into their trucks and squealed tires as they backed into each other.  They separated and bashed each other repeatedly.  Nobody seemed real excited by it.  I exited the parking lot by another route without waiting to see who won.  There were no chain saws involved.

Vasco DG

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@ Vasco DG - Of course I put orginal lifter into the engine. I just put shims between follower and lifter. I did not replace lifter wit shims only.)))

You misunderstand me. I wasn't thinking that you had replaced the lifter with shims, simply saying it is unlikely that the lifter is the problem, the problem is the tappet or the cam lobe or both.

Oh, and I just looked at the video. The bike does need the recall, it has never been carried out, if the recall has been done there would be snapped off adjusters on the rockers at the pushrod end of the rockers.

Pete







[/quote]
« Last Edit: April 08, 2015, 04:46:23 PM by Vasco DG »

Adamus

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@vasco dg

Did you see my rocker arms? How does it look like? Was there any recall done?
Since  there are no adjustment screews I supoose no .
Anyway I measured clearance between rocker arm and valve with empty lifter (oil drained)

Intake valve (the noisy one) with shim 2,2mm clearance measured 0,7mm
Exhaust Valve (ok) with orginal shim 1mm clearance measured 1,8 mm

So it seems that 2,2 mm shim is not needed . Before I installed 2,2 shim i tried with 1mm but I after engine startup noise was still there. So i stopped the engine an installed 2,2mm , started again and it was ok until motor was hot again.
Is there any initial procedure for first startup with empty lifters? I supose if i would wait longer with the orginal shim (1mm) result would be the same.

After clearance measure I started up engine again. Exhaust valve was refiled after 5-6 seconds ,,intake very very long and after 10 minutes at iddle speed noise was back again.

Facts:
1) I have two new lifters - they are 100% ok
2) oil pressure is very low when engine is hot
3) knocking is audible always when oil pressure goes down
4) at low oil pressure even on oposite head valves are generating quiet knocking
5) oil in my engine is 15w50 fresh replaced
6) at intake valve shim was missing


So im at the point where I need to make a decision wheter start to open engin (disaembly timimng , camshaft oil pump etc) or put the bike for repair to any motobike service.

Before I start with disasebmly I woul like to to ask you for a favour!
Could someone please call some loacal MG dealer in US just to check my model if any engine recall was asigned.
I just need this information to push our dealer in PL. For today they keep sayojg that MG hasn't any ossues woth cam lofters and so on.. (My VIN ZGUKDC1203M111746)


@krgloriso
Recall aćtion for lower tripple clapm was let say " done" in my case.
Some weeks after i bought my machine (2008year) I dicovered this issue. I went to our MG dealer in PL for informing him about it. He organized rplacement part free of charge but I had to install it on my own or pay for service labour. Of course I did it on my own.:)
Thx

Online rodekyll

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What you are describing is going to be catastrophically fatal in a few more engine ticks.  This is by no means anywhere near normal.  I can't stress this enough -- YOU ARE DESTROYING YOUR ENGINE BY CONTINUING TO START IT WITHOUT FIXING WHAT'S WRONG.  The clatter you hear are the internal bits slapping each other into grit. 

You really need to remove the sump and do a visual check of the camshaft.  You can see it from underneath.  You should also check the sump and oil for metal bits.

As Pete says, the photo evidence says the recall has not been done.

Vasco DG

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Adamus, it isn't the lifters that are at fault, it's the cam and tappets that will be worn.

I'll try calling our importer today for you if one of the dealers here can't run your VIN# through their system, the problem for me is that in Australia we, the dealers and service agents, don't have direct access to the warranty and recall system due to our very small market we have to ask the importer and I know that at the moment they are short staffed and have the main technical bloke on holiday but I'll see what I can do.

In reality probably the best and easiest, as well as cheapest sollution, might be to do what we arranged to do for one of our NZ members who had the same problem. Buy another non-hydro lifter motor second hand, (We used a V11 Sport motor.) and put that into your Cali. You can pick up very cheap, low mileage, motors in the USA and although shipping wouldn't be cheap it would be cheaper than most of the other options available to you if you have to pay for the parts and work yourself.

Pete

PS. Don't worry about your English. You're doing just fine. If you don't understand what we are saying tell us and we will try and re-phrase it so you can understand.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2015, 06:19:28 PM by Vasco DG »

Online Bob Wegman

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Pete,  You are such a good person to the Guzzi community.  Good on you.
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Offline Bill Owens

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What Bob said :+1

Offline krglorioso

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What Bob and Bill said.  Pete, you sure ARE a good person!

Ralph
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Vasco DG

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Nah, I'm just a person.

Thing is I'd guess that finding information on obscure, short model run, twelve year old motorbikes in Poland would have to be a chore! Who wouldn't help if they could?

Pete

Adamus

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Ok..

So regardless to recall action I will open my engine in my garage :)
Question to thoose who ever did that.
Is there any way how to disasmbly camshaft oil pump and complete timing system with engine mounted in frame?
I  mean . I wanted to skip operation " engine out of frame " if its possible.
But considering how it look in exploded views ...I think this can be impossible. :bow

Pete you are my masta :)



Vasco DG

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No need to remove the motor. The whole operation can be done with the engine in the frame.

Pulling the front engine mounting bolt will allow you to remove the timing chest cover. To get to that point it's simply a matter of methodically removing parts until you get to where you want to be.

Do you have a workbench or will you be working on the floor?

Pete

Adamus

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Most probabley on the flor:)

So I suppose I need to prepare some support like i.e. wooden brick or sth.
Hmm
As soon as I will be back home I will start :)

Vasco DG

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Can you build some sort of bench to elevate the whole bike 700mm or so? Bricks and planks is fine. It will just make your task a lot more comfortable. I have no idea how old you are but believe me, if you are over fifty it will make the difference between the job just being a challenging learning experience and torture!

Pete

Online Chuck in Indiana

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The *first* thing I would do is pull the oil pan and check for ground up lifter/cam stuck to the magnet or filter screen. If you find that, and there is a good chance you will.. you may as well decide to pull the engine out of the frame before going any farther.
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal

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Offline mphcycles

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Can you post up a picture of the valves and rocker gear with the tappet cover off the engine. This is the first step in determining if the recall is needed or has been carried out properly.

Unfortunately it may be that your bike was supposed to have had the recall performed and it has been noted as having been done but the work may not of been carried out. It could also be that it wasn't carried out correctly.

Getting any further action is likely to be very difficult simply because the machine is now over twelve years old. If the work is recorded as having been performed then I'm afraid it may well be that you have no recourse but to try and find the parts to fix it yourself.

A failure may also be down to the oil pump being damaged by a previous failure.

Pete
Not to be too spammish, but MPH has a few of those cam repair kits in stock.  You know how Todd was, always looking out for Guzzi riders, so he ratholed a few kits knowing that they  would be discontinued long before all the bikes that needed them got fixed
Mike Haven
MPH Cycles
16510 Park Row
Houston, Texas 77084
832 557 7214
www.mphcycles.com
 (Please just email me ,  I dont PM)

Vasco DG

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Not to be too spammish, but MPH has a few of those cam repair kits in stock.  You know how Todd was, always looking out for Guzzi riders, so he ratholed a few kits knowing that they  would be discontinued long before all the bikes that needed them got fixed

Excellent! Thanks Mike!

Pete

Offline davedel44

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 :bow MPH Mike, Todd and good Uncle Pete.
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Adamus

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Life is life...

Today I couldn't go any step forward.. Had to repair my wifes car..murphy's law or sth..
Anyway car is ok. I collect all adivices, and maybe Pete is right, a ramp will be good solution to prepare comfortable conditions.. The challenge looks quite nasty but i like them.

BTW . What is the price for complete urgrade kit?


Offline mphcycles

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$125 plus shipping
Mike Haven
MPH Cycles
16510 Park Row
Houston, Texas 77084
832 557 7214
www.mphcycles.com
 (Please just email me ,  I dont PM)

Adamus

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Mike. Could you please specify what is included in this set?

Could you please check as well history of my bike based on vin number. As I mentioned before in Poland there is no serious dealer in my country so far. They said the there never has been a problem with hydro calis. Since you own or work in mphcycles this shouldn't be a big issue for you.
Thx Adam

Online Wayne Orwig

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As provided to me.


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Online rodekyll

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Adamus -- I posted the kit list here a year or so ago.  Do a search for hydro recall and you will probably find it.  To summarize, the kit contains the parts AND THE TOOLS only needed to do the recall procedure.  I can't name all the tools.  The parts include the valve spring components, adjusters, tappets, lifters, camshaft, and a few other bits.  It does not include an oil pump, which from your reported symptoms you probably need.  It also does not include main or rod bearings, and depending on the amount of chunk in the oil, you may need them too.

Pete's suggestion of replacing the engine is not a bad one.  As you can see, the damage done by the hydro failure can be much more extensive than the recall kit covers.  In a perfect world the problem is fixed before it happens.  If you get to it in time the kit is as much as you need and the fix can be done with the engine in place.  Your world is not perfect -- the damage has started.  The probability of as completely trashed engine is high.  there is a less than even chance that the recall kit alone with fix the problem.

I would not approach this as a routine hydro recall.  I'd look at it as a possibly totaled engine, and I'd want to be sure I wasn't starting down a garden path of increasing expenses before I spent any money on the kit.  I'd pull the sump. timing cover, oil pump, and rod caps looking for metal chunks embedded in the bearings and damaged crank journals.  I'd expect to find a lot of additional parts needed.  I'd make a shopping list based on what I find and decide if it makes sense to do the entire repair or replace the engine.

So pull those things, look them over, take some pics and post them here.  Pete and the guys will tell you if it's salvagable or not.  I would really love to be wrong . . .

edited to reflect that the current MPH kit does not contain the tools.  It is not the full recall kit.  It is the parts kit.  Sorry if that created any false expectations, and sorry I tried to 'splain someone else's inventory.

BTW -- I just got off the phone with MPH orderinng a kit.  They're going like hotcakes  ;) .  If you plan to get busy on a hydro, get yours now!
« Last Edit: April 09, 2015, 05:01:32 PM by rodekyll »

Adamus

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Rodekyll. Pete already convinced me to stop any new stupid tries with shims etc. I will try to follow line which you showed me and already went thru several times (some of you i hope) That is the reason why I signed in to this forum...Honestly speaking I never saw such high profesional people sharing their experience .And fo far I got the felling that all of you guys know hwat are you talking about.
Regarding this recall kit... I was confused by the price ( 125$ ) that is why I asked for complete list. I mean only the price for part no 2 is 120US dollar. So I think I missunderstood somethink. Or?
So no worries im on the way to see how "perfect world" kicks my a..

Cheers Adam


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