Lithium Batteries

[flip]

The Shorai in my Breva 1100 was cranking fine a few weeks ago when the morning temperatures were down around freezing. My son has had no problems with the Shorai I put in his SV650S ABS. When my Shiver needs a new battery, I'll probably buy another Shorai. I also want to get one of those little pocket size jump boxes.

[kevdog3019]

More cranking power when it is below freezing, I'll stick with my AGM.
If weight saving mattered, I wouldn't be riding a Moto Guzzi with a trailer hitch on it.

We all have our justifications Wayne. Still pros and cons to everything. Lots of myths that need dismything here. You have a valid point for not wanting weight savings and wanting pocket savings as well as one-hit starts below freezing. These will still spin your starter faster once warmed up after a couple hits than an AGM.

[kevdog3019]

Just so you don't think I'm in bed with these batteries, the case I wouldn't use one would be a bike that had ANY draw while parked or a bike I didn't care about weight savings and started easily. Boils down to value and need. For a finicky carb bike these are pretty awesome batteries with good hard and long spin rates.

[rodekyll]

I don't have an opinion other than the Li batteries are probably a bad idea in Alaska.  Not passing judgment on the warmer climates.  But I'm wondering what the 'savings' are when you have to work the starter so hard and so many times before the superior technology wakes up and starts the bike.  It seems that the perceived economy of $$ and weight is negated by wear, tear, and probably premature starter failure.   :-\

$0.02, ymwpv

[krglorioso]

I've used a Shorai in my Suzuki SV-1000 sport bike for 5 months.  Really cranks fast and instant starting.  No problems so far.  This battery reduced my bike's weight by 8#.  Not insignificant on a sport bike with a rather slightly-built rider.  I'm at my strength limit with the Stones!

Ralph

[NoVector]

Lots of FUD about Li batteries in this thread..... >:(

I've had a LiPo in my Stelvio for 6 months.  No issues at all.  More CCA than stock, never seems to drain down even sitting for 4 weeks, always starts the bike with no dramas.  If it ever does drain down (would take 6+ months), can be topped up in 10 min on a charger.   ;-T

-NV

[old head]

http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=57802.0

While I like the way it cranks the bike, cool to cold weather does not allow the bike to crank without lots of starter button jabs.

I don't think it is the battery so much as the computer in the Breva 1100

several times, it has been below 60 and no crank, it doesn't show over 12 volts on the dash.  hook up the 2 amp charger so it shows over 12 volts and it cranks everytime.   Just know the issues, I won't buy another one for the Breva, but would as long the computer doesn't control the circuit.

[Chuck in Indiana]

I've mentioned this before, so the technology might be better now. I was at an April rally in Ohio 2-3 years ago, and a guy with a Triumph had a *really* hard time starting his bike in high 30s/low 40s temps both days. Apparently the low voltage did something weird to the timing, and it would crank, backfire, crank, backfire ad nauseum. It eventually started both days, but it took literally 20 minutes or better. I was unimpressed.  ;D

[kevdog3019]

Lots of FUD about Li batteries in this thread..... >:(

I've had a LiPo in my Stelvio for 6 months.  No issues at all.  More CCA than stock, never seems to drain down even sitting for 4 weeks, always starts the bike with no dramas.  If it ever does drain down (would take 6+ months), can be topped up in 10 min on a charger.   ;-T

-NV

The suspended crowd will believe what they want. My (much older) friend who has an open mind and dose his research got his 12 cell today for his V11 Lemans and can't believe how bright his lights are and how fast his bike cranks. I see LED technology (being more efficient) making lack of capacity even easier. He has some aux LED lights and I don't see it being an issue.

[MotoG5]

After two leaking Yuasa AGM units and the results in the pic I was done with lead acid. Installed an Antigravity sixteen cell and have never had any issues in any weather conditions. Even bought the special charger for the AG and have never needed it.
 

[Aaron D.]

I get the impression that the guys with problems have CANBUS bikes, or others where the ECU monitors voltage beforeallowing starts.

[Wayne Orwig]

The suspended crowd will believe what they want. My (much older) friend who has an open mind and dose his research got his 12 cell today for his V11 Lemans and can't believe how bright his lights are and how fast his bike cranks.

I don't just believe what I want, I know.
I know that on my bikes, my alternator output is right near 14.2 volts. It doesn't matter one bit what battery chemistry I use, it is 14.2 volt max. That is set by the regulator. Just because the lights are a touch brighter when you first turn on the key, simply means the resting voltage is a bit different, which means nothing to me.
What DOES mean something to me is that I ride year round. I often come out of work at 1am., it is often below freezing, even here in Georgia. I don't want to fart with baby sitting a battery, I want to press the button and go. I have that today. Why fart with something that WORKS WELL for me and costs a lot more?
 

[Lannis]

kevdog ....


You were doing good here:

“Just so you don't think I'm in bed with these batteries ….”

And then ruined it here:

“The suspended crowd will believe what they want….”

You're almost to street preaching!    :pop

Lannis

[redrider]

Well said, Wayne. The Benelli is always parked with the kill switch off and it is not a CANBUS system. Parasitic draw is zero; I checked with a Fluke. Reading forums and threads, it seems the A123 cells used by Ballistic do not have the capacity of the prismatic type. I compare electricity to water-A bucket holds more than a glass(amphours) and more water flows through a large pipe than a small one(amps) at the same pressure(12 volts for electricity). If a battery company wants my money, let me try one first. I'll pay for it only if the Lithium types can give the same trouble free starts in any weather as my LA ones. For the V11, I'm considering one because of the leakage stories.

[kevdog3019]

kevdog ....


You were doing good here:

“Just so you don't think I'm in bed with these batteries ….”

And then ruined it here:

“The suspended crowd will believe what they want….”

You're almost to street preaching!    :pop

Lannis

Perhaps, but I was thinking more along the lines of Carbs vs. FI and points vs. EI.  There are a good many "suspender types" that hear of a case of someone on the roadside due to electronic failure and can't start a bike.  What do you think they say?  Yeah... I like carbs too and was stranded for a poor connection to my fuel pump, but I won't espouse that FI sucks.  Well... I'm seeing the same thing here with "exploding batteries", "won't spin up the starter in cold temps so throw it away", "need way more capacity than you think you do".  The inverse would be me saying "AGM leak acid".  TBH... I think that's extremely rare to the point I wouldn't call it a negative just like some of these other points being spun.  I think we describe the "suspender crowd" as being a little "stuck in their ways" (jokingly of course).  ;)  I see for someone like Wayne that he doesn't need something light or small and certainly not something that costs a bit more.  Sometimes the justification for it is more the exception to the rule from personal experience.  I'm not saying you should get a lithium, but rather that you need to be careful what you believe from the peanut gallery; there are two sides.  My lithium was probably cheaper than an AGM of equal quality; you NEVER hear that!!  I think a good AGM is almost a buck fifty now?  My 4-cell was just over a buck.  I'm not sure I could do $300 for a battery personally.  Both battery types are good and have their place... bottom line.  Like it or not, we are moving away from lead/acid.  I am all for battery technology as I've always wondered why we talk so much about bike batteries and so little about car batteries through the years?  Cars don't seem to have nearly the issues.  Charging to farkles?  capacity?  What is the problem?  Anyone care to comment on this?  

[56Pan]

kevdog ....


You were doing good here:

“Just so you don't think I'm in bed with these batteries ….”

And then ruined it here:

“The suspended crowd will believe what they want….”

You're almost to street preaching!    :pop

Lannis

"suspended crowd", "closed minds", "peanut gallery".  He might try debating an issue without denigrating.

[Lannis]

 I am all for battery technology as I've always wondered why we talk so much about bike batteries and so little about car batteries through the years?  Cars don't seem to have nearly the issues.  Charging to farkles?  capacity?  What is the problem?  Anyone care to comment on this?  

I have my "own" battery soapbox.   On a motorcycle, a thing that can lean over and fall over and maybe vibrates some, I don't see the point any more in having an essentially open bucket of sulfuric acid sloshing around between your legs, and draining its vapors and splashes directly onto the chrome and paint of one's motorcycle.   Today they make lovely SEALED UP batteries of various kinds that can NOT splash acid around; and yet many people still buy the old kind, because they like it for being old, and maybe cheap.   Not me!

Car batteries are bigger, and heavier without penalty, and in an environment where a little acid vapor hardly makes a difference; but you can buy $300 car batteries for your sporty-car that are light and sealed up and I'm sure the car forums are loaded with discussions as to whether a sealed $300 Optima battery is better than a $80 lead-acid Exide battery like from your dad's Hudson Hornet.

Discussions usually stay civil until a sentence structured like "Anyone who thinks X is either Y or has never Z ..." shows up!

Lannis

[kevdog3019]

I have my "own" battery soapbox.   On a motorcycle, a thing that can lean over and fall over and maybe vibrates some, I don't see the point any more in having an essentially open bucket of sulfuric acid sloshing around between your legs, and draining its vapors and splashes directly onto the chrome and paint of one's motorcycle.   Today they make lovely SEALED UP batteries of various kinds that can NOT splash acid around; and yet many people still buy the old kind, because they like it for being old, and maybe cheap.   Not me!

Car batteries are bigger, and heavier without penalty, and in an environment where a little acid vapor hardly makes a difference; but you can buy $300 car batteries for your sporty-car that are light and sealed up and I'm sure the car forums are loaded with discussions as to whether a sealed $300 Optima battery is better than a $80 lead-acid Exide battery like from your dad's Hudson Hornet.

Discussions usually stay civil until a sentence structured like "Anyone who thinks X is either Y or has never Z ..." shows up!

Lannis

Yes sir, or until someone starts to change the subject matter over to civility. Maybe talk to Rocker if you feel it should get pulled. I'm ok with that if you feel there's been name calling.
Sincerely,
Kevin

[Lannis]

Yes sir, or until someone starts to change the subject matter over to civility. Maybe talk to Rocker if you feel it should get pulled. I'm ok with that if you feel there's been name calling.
Sincerely,
Kevin

No, no, not me ... I'm just commenting generally on postings on WG overall, sort of daffing about.   You haven't done any name calling or anything outside the pale at all, don't mind me.   But you know how an innocuous subject like 4WD or Oil or Tires or even something innocent like "The Jew is Using the Black as Muscle Against You" can turn fractious and hot in a minute  .....  ;)

Lannis

[Wayne Orwig]

I see for someone like Wayne that he doesn't need something light or small and certainly not something that costs a bit more.  Sometimes the justification for it is more the exception to the rule from personal experience.  

I guarantee that if I had a newer NTX Stelvio, with the battery laying on the side and leaking acid, that I would be looking for an alternative. LiFe may be that alternative.
And you get the people that think that LiFe = LiIon or LiPo. It does not. That adds to the mess. Or someone says 'I turned on the key and the lights are brighter'. Resting voltage doesn't mean a lot here. So the real facts are muddy.
But my main concern when I see these threads are the people that don't fully understand the difference. They heard on the internit that LiFe is great. So they get one, and they don't get the right size, so cold starting is a big issue. Or they hook up the wrong charger, and kill it. Or they have a parasitic load that kills it. And they really should have a special balancing charger. They are different, and not everyone will understand that when they buy one.  
When I get a phone call from someone that is stranded because their high tech battery is dead, or just cold, I'm going to have a good laugh.


Now where are my suspenders.  :BEER:

[kevdog3019]

I totally agree Wayne. You have to know the facts, good and bad. The cold thing could certainly make someone suspect it's dead if they don't know better only to find out when they get it home and off the truck it's bright and cheery. Hmmm...

[kevdog3019]

No, no, not me ... I'm just commenting generally on postings on WG overall, sort of daffing about.   You haven't done any name calling or anything outside the pale at all, don't mind me.   But you know how an innocuous subject like 4WD or Oil or Tires or even something innocent like "The Jew is Using the Black as Muscle Against You" can turn fractious and hot in a minute  .....  ;)

Lannis

  OK Lannis, thanks for the explanation, and yes. I've seen my share of misunderstandings.  :P

[Big Block Jon]

In regard to the "resting voltage" comments,  my headlight is noticeably brighter when running Li-Fe not only before starting but while the bike is running.

Before I bought the lithium I was considering making the wiring modification that takes a direct connection from battery to headlight (with a relay from the light switch), because the headlight was so dim during my night-time commute that it felt unsafe.  After I put in the ballistic, the headlight is much brighter during my commute.

[kevdog3019]

In regard to the "resting voltage" comments,  my headlight is noticeably brighter when running Li-Fe not only before starting but while the bike is running.

Before I bought the lithium I was considering making the wiring modification that takes a direct connection from battery to headlight (with a relay from the light switch), because the headlight was so dim during my night-time commute that it felt unsafe.  After I put in the ballistic, the headlight is much brighter during my commute.

Interesting. My friend just installed his and has had the dreaded voltage reg light come on for quite some time (V11 lemans). He baked it to get the moisture out which seemed to help while it sat over the winter so thought he was done with it. Oh yes, he bought a new one before that as well to no avail. Stayed on recently with the key. After install of this battery, he says it's gone off. We both suspected it might be a battery thing after all he's done so maybe we will find out over time. Granted I think his battery has been pretty bad for some time, but it always started up and he didn't charge over the winter. It always seemed pretty doggy on startup compared to mine with a lead acid. He also seems to think the bike is more responsive now. He admits it might be in his head, but if things run more effectively (stronger) could it not mean your system as a whole could run the same??  Makes you wonder.

[rodekyll]

In regard to the "resting voltage" comments,  my headlight is noticeably brighter when running Li-Fe not only before starting but while the bike is running.

Before I bought the lithium I was considering making the wiring modification that takes a direct connection from battery to headlight (with a relay from the light switch), because the headlight was so dim during my night-time commute that it felt unsafe.  After I put in the ballistic, the headlight is much brighter during my commute.

Not to be bursting your bubble, but volts is volts.  Once you're running the alternator provides the power, not the battery.  If you got better headlights while running it's more likely that you improved contact on the big wires when you changed the battery and are seeing the coincidental improvement made there.   :)

[kevdog3019]

Not to be bursting your bubble, but volts is volts.  Once you're running the alternator provides the power, not the battery.  If you got better headlights while running it's more likely that you improved contact on the big wires when you changed the battery and are seeing the coincidental improvement made there.   :)

So all stereo equipment should sound the same?  All gauge wire does the same?  All relays act identically with current?  Cheap connectors are identical to hard solder connections?  If you're saying current is current and nothing affects it I beg to differ.

[rodekyll]

So all stereo equipment should sound the same?  All gauge wire does the same?  All relays act identically with current?  Cheap connectors are identical to hard solder connections?  If you're saying current is current and nothing affects it I beg to differ.

Ease up, Kev.  We have a context here -- comment said that changing the battery made his headlights brighter while riding.  He didn't change his stereo, wires, relays, or connectors.  He only changed the battery, which assuming he has a working charging system isn't going make the headlights any brighter when the alternator is supplying the current.  The alternator is supplying the current whenever its voltage exceeds battery voltage, which should be at a fairly low rpm.  In the course of changing it, he might have either deliberately or accidently improved the connection.  That's all I was saying.

[old as dirt 2]

http://www.starkpower.com the boat dealer I work at just started carrying this line.  pretty impressive batteries. they have a circuit board in them to prevent parasitic drain when the ignition is off,  the big trolling motor batteries that bass boats use save them 100lbs in the boats versus traditional AGM or wet batteries.
the little jump boxes are very nice, they can crank a v-8 engine with out a battery, or can jump them off about 8 times with out a charge. they come with accessory plugs so you can charge a completely dead cell phone in 10 min, run a computer all day.  when you touch the red and black jumpers together they don't spark because it senses and won't conduct.
check out the site. there is a difference in Lith batteries.
I will be buying one when my current battery gives up.

[Big Block Jon]

Not to be bursting your bubble, but volts is volts.  Once you're running the alternator provides the power, not the battery.  If you got better headlights while running it's more likely that you improved contact on the big wires when you changed the battery and are seeing the coincidental improvement made there.   Smiley

Makes sense.  However since the old battery,an ancient yuasa, was actually in the circuit,  Is it possible that it was creating resistance in regard to current flow from the alternator?

[rodekyll]

Makes sense.  However since the old battery,an ancient yuasa, was actually in the circuit,  Is it possible that it was creating resistance in regard to current flow from the alternator?

Sure, if it's connected in series where the alternator must go through the battery to find the headlight like this: 

alt -> battery -> headlight.

But I'm arguing that functionally it's a parallel arrangement where the alternator feeds both the battery and the headlight, and looks like this:

         |->battery
alt -> |
         |->headlight

So getting back to my statement "volts is volts", the source of the power doesn't matter.  What matters is that there's enough.  If the resting voltage (as much as is going to fit in the battery at rest) is 12.8 and the alternator pumps out 14, it's the alternator running the headlight.  That was true for both the old, bad battery and the new one.  So the new one didn't make the headlight brighter.